Goddess Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said: Just out of curiosity, in 4322 replies on this thread, has anyone changed their view? I can understand responding to the initial post with a reasoned argument on one side or another and then a rebuttal. But 4322 posts saying the same thing repeatedly is clearly pythonesque. Debate should be a learning process, entered into with an open mind. I can't say I've changed my mind, but in 4322 posts I have a clearer understanding of some of the issues. To me, the purpose of debate isn't to change anyone else's mind (although if they do, that is fine). The purpose is to better understand where everyone else is coming from. I may not fully agree with other's opinions but that doesn't mean they don't make some valid points. Edited May 17, 2017 by Goddess One too many L's in "valid" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 My point is, everyone stated their positions on this thread in the first few dozen posts. After that, it became a yelling match when it was clearly time to move on. Has there been a single participant who was persuaded to the merits of a contrary argument? In the words of John Cleese, this is not argument, it is contradiction. (Yah yah, "no it's not") ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, Goddess said: The purpose is to better understand where everyone else is coming from. I may not fully agree with other's opinions but that doesn't mean they don't make some valid points. Point taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said: My point is, everyone stated their positions on this thread in the first few dozen posts. After that, it became a yelling match when it was clearly time to move on. Has there been a single participant who was persuaded to the merits of a contrary argument? In the words of John Cleese, this is not argument, it is contradiction. (Yah yah, "no it's not") ;-) Your suggestion that folks "move on" from discussing Islam as it invades my society will be taken under advisement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 On 5/11/2017 at 1:19 PM, Argus said: Do you regard job interviews as a waste of time? Apples and oranges. Job interviews are objective, and you are only allowed to ask certain kinds of questions, and the applicant has a recourse if you break the rules (discrimination lawsuit). Which of course is exactly what would happen if anyone ever failed your values test. Our constitution places limits on what our government can do, not just to Canadians, but to foreigners as well. The very first thing that would happen is an immigration attorney would sue the government and the interview process would be put under a public microscope. As for your claims about your history of job interviews readers will probably take them with a grain of salt like they do the rest of your claims. But even if they are true, if you have interviewed based on the criteria you have described you have broken the law and put your company at risk of losing a law suit. You can NOT ask questions that are purely person. You cant ask a candidate if he values women less than men. You cant ask him if he has a family. You cant ask him his age. You cant ask him if he beats his wife. You cant ask any questions about his gender or sexual alignment. You cant ask any questions about his religion. You cant ask any questions AT ALL that are not directly related to evaluating his ability to perform the duties that are posted in writing on the posted job description. I learned this the hard way. I thought it was a good idea to ask a candidate if they had a family, because I figured someone with a family to support would likely be more stable and more motivated. HR got wind of it and I got my ass chewed out. So this whole refrain of "if you think job interviews are useful you MUST think "values screening" are useful? Well that dog just don't hunt. So its going to have get boarded in your ever expanding kennel of other dogs, because none of them hunt either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said: Your suggestion that folks "move on" from discussing Islam as it invades my society will be taken under advisement. "Invades my society" ROFLMAO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just now, dre said: "Invades my society" ROFLMAO You're free to love cherish and obey Islam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omni Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 9 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: You're free to love cherish and obey Islam. ROFLMAO encore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just now, Omni said: ROFLMAO encore. As long as hubby doesn't keep burning you with the ciggies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omni Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just now, DogOnPorch said: As long as hubby doesn't keep burning you with the ciggies. Your hubby smokes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: My point is, everyone stated their positions on this thread in the first few dozen posts. After that, it became a yelling match when it was clearly time to move on. Has there been a single participant who was persuaded to the merits of a contrary argument? In the words of John Cleese, this is not argument, it is contradiction. (Yah yah, "no it's not") ;-) People rarely change their minds in places like this. Because in general people that spend a lot of time sitting on the internet arguing about politics are partisan ideologues that take politics a bit too seriously. Its not accusation against others, as I fit into that category too. I don't really care what fake got immigrants might choose to believe it. I would need compelling DATA to change my mind... for example... statistics showing muslims commit murders or other crimes at a much higher rate than other immigrants. But in the US for example they are actually LESS likely to commit murder than other Americans which means each time you let a muslim in the murder rate actually goes down a tiny bit. An "argument" is not going to change my mind unless its accompanied by a dataset that I find credible and compelling. The islamaphobes on here are always missing that one key thing... evidence. I cant help but be reminded of this... Start it at the 1:30 mark... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 14 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: You're free to love cherish and obey Islam. And you're free to keep raping small children (an equally unsupported accusation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 26 minutes ago, dre said: And you're free to keep raping small children (an equally unsupported accusation). Your particular perdition is not mine. However, you are free to support Islam while I'm free to not support it. Don't you agree? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omni Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Your particular perdition is not mine. However, you are free to support Islam while I'm free to not support it. Don't you agree? Your perdition appears to be Christianity. (you do understand the word I assume)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just now, Omni said: Your perdition appears to be Christianity. (you do understand the word I assume)? Christianity: Great music and architecture. Core message very simple and friendly. That being said: Child molesters get what they deserve. Don't you agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omni Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Christianity: Great music and architecture. Core message very simple and friendly. That being said: Child molesters get what they deserve. Don't you agree? Good thing as there are a lot of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just now, Omni said: Good thing as there are a lot of them. Big Mo is thee example of the perfect man...after-all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, dre said: Apples and oranges. Job interviews are objective, and you are only allowed to ask certain kinds of questions, and the applicant has a recourse if you break the rules (discrimination lawsuit). Which of course is exactly what would happen if anyone ever failed your values test. Our constitution places limits on what our government can do, not just to Canadians, but to foreigners as well. Not on foreign soil it doesn't. All such interviews would take place in the applicant's home country. 1 hour ago, dre said: The very first thing that would happen is an immigration attorney would sue the government and the interview process would be put under a public microscope. Not a chance. Those blood suckers wouldn't touch a case unless the government funded it. And the government is under no obligation to fund lawsuits from foreigners who failed their entry test on foreign soil. 1 hour ago, dre said: As for your claims about your history of job interviews readers will probably take them with a grain of salt like they do the rest of your claims. But even if they are true, if you have interviewed based on the criteria you have described you have broken the law and put your company at risk of losing a law suit. You can NOT ask questions that are purely person. You cant ask a candidate if he values women less than men. You cant ask him if he has a family. You cant ask him his age. You cant ask him if he beats his wife. You cant ask any questions about his gender or sexual alignment. You cant ask any questions about his religion. You cant ask any questions AT ALL that are not directly related to evaluating his ability to perform the duties that are posted in writing on the posted job description. Of course, none of the questions you mention above were necessary in a job interview, but we certainly did our best to determine what kind of a person we were hiring, what kind of motivation and imitative they had and how easygoing they were (a hint, we would NEVER have hired you). But we can ask any damned question we want of a foreigner in a foreign country. 1 hour ago, dre said: I learned this the hard way. I thought it was a good idea to ask a candidate if they had a family, because I figured someone with a family to support would likely be more stable and more motivated. HR got wind of it and I got my ass chewed out. Yes, our HR department was also freaky about stupid rules. In fact, I would go so far as to say that HR has become the single biggest deterrent to the efficient operation of government. Its ridiculous and arcane rules are so stringently designed to ensure fairness to everyone they leave out the most important person who deserves fairness - the department hiring people. Probably 99% of the efforts of HR are designed to ensure fairness to the applicant and maybe (I'm being generous) 1% is designed to get the best applicant for the hiring department in a timely manner). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said: Your particular perdition is not mine. However, you are free to support Islam while I'm free to not support it. Don't you agree? Its a strawman. I don't support Islam. I think its a completely bogus set of beliefs, that encourages bad behavior in many of its followers. But pretty much everyone has at least some beliefs that I find disturbing... My opinion is that people have the right to think and believe unpopular or abhorrent things, and should be judged instead on how they act. And I don't see any evidence that our Muslim population commits more problematic acts than any other immigrant group, or than Canadians as a whole. Just like I find your racist, xenophobic mindset disgusting, but as long as you behave and don't go out and start committing hate crimes I believe you have the right to be a xenophobic racist. You should not be punished simply from what you think or believe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, dre said: Its a strawman. I don't support Islam. I think its a completely bogus set of beliefs, that encourages bad behavior in many of its followers. But pretty much everyone has at least some beliefs that I find disturbing... My opinion is that people have the right to think and believe unpopular or abhorrent things, and should be judged instead on how they act. And I don't see any evidence that our Muslim population commits more problematic acts than any other immigrant group, or than Canadians as a whole. Just like I find your racist, xenophobic mindset disgusting, but as long as you behave and don't go out and start committing hate crimes I believe you have the right to be a xenophobic racist. You should not be punished simply from what you think or believe. Islam is a religion. Plus it is a political system. It. however, is not a race or a skin colour. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 This leads me to the question: should I be forced to accept Islam? Or, conversely, should I be punished for not accepting Islam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omni Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: This leads me to the question: should I be forced to accept Islam? Or, conversely, should I be punished for not accepting Islam? Do you have any valid questions to ask? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogOnPorch Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 Just now, Omni said: Do you have any valid questions to ask? Seeing the government is gearing-up to make everybody accept Islam by force, these would be valid questions to all but Islam's supporters...yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omni Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 11 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Seeing the government is gearing-up to make everybody accept Islam by force, these would be valid questions to all but Islam's supporters...yes. Yes I've noticed of late the tanks assembling on the streets around me waving ISIS flags. Your town too I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dre Posted May 17, 2017 Report Share Posted May 17, 2017 1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said: This leads me to the question: should I be forced to accept Islam? Or, conversely, should I be punished for not accepting Islam? What does not accepting them mean? Does it mean you rant about them on a message board all day? That's fine. Does it mean you just don't like them and wont be their friends? Thats fine. Does it mean you will vote for parties that want to restrict muslim immigration? That's fine. The only time its not fine is when your non-acceptance crosses the line and you break the law, or directly incite others to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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