Islamophobia in Canada

[jacee]

Was only in response to someone saying that moderate Muslims should be out denouncing the extremists. They are, and they do. But they'll still be blamed and held responsible for all the damage and pain the extremists cause.

Only by a few ignorant idiots.

All of whom seem to post on mlw. :/

I can never see blaming anyone for the actions of others regardless of who those people were and regardless of what the actions were. That goes for everyone. Literally. FWIW, I don't think any Muslim has the obligation to denounce the actions of Muslims they disagree with. (Same as anyone else, as as per my second sentence above) It's nice if they do, but I don't fault them if they don't.

I think we all denounce violent acts against innocent people.

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[jacee]

Using your technique no one can state anything negative about Islamic society as it must mean an insult to all Muslims.

If it is stated as criticism of "Islamic society", then it is an insult to all Muslims.

One must be specific, and clear.

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[Rue]

I don't think Islam should be designated as a criminal organization but it should be called out repeatedly for its mysoginistic views. Western countries should do more to put pressure on countries that practice these views (sanctions) or other means. I think eventually this religion will evolve but it's going to take pressure from western countries.

This seems a reasonable approach.

A vole, a wombat, a titmouse or a rat each have clubs. I think they should meet now and then and share cheese.

However I do appreciate that in such sketches the police burst in at a moment's notice and arrest everyone.

[Rue]

If it is stated as criticism of "Islamic society", then it is an insult to all Muslims.

One must be specific, and clear.

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Nonsense. Absolute fascist nonsense. What is it if not Islamic Society? Good lord. When discussing sharks do not use the word shark she says.

Gawd can it be any more absurd.

[Bryan]

List Catholicism as a criminal organization, eg, for its policies of obstructing the law to harbour and protect pedophiles.

IE, You might not want to go down that road. :/

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Probably not a bad idea either if enough evidence can be found of it being official policy. There was definitely something untoward going on that so much of it happened in the same kinds of circumstances, and it was dealt with in pretty much the same way each time.

[On Guard for Thee]

Cartoons are probably about the right level of sophistication to accompany your nonsense claims anyway.

Congrats. I knew you'd get it.

[Argus]

List Catholicism as a criminal organization, eg, for its policies of obstructing the law to harbour and protect pedophiles.

The Catholic church has no such policies. Like any bureaucracy, however, it's prone to willful blindness.

[Argus]

ISIL's narrative to all Muslims is that the West is intolerant of and poses a threat to all of Islam.

That is, at most, a subtext. The West is simply not that important as a part of ISIL's narrative, or at least, it wasn't until the West started bombing them. Their main call to arms is on establishing the Caliphate anew, to encompass all Muslim countries and eventually, the world.

[WestCanMan]

Do you do your own freelance fear mongering or do you get live feeds from Republican candidate campaigns?

Where do you get the impression that countries like Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, etc are a lot like Canada with regards to human rights and tolerance of minorities? Houses are a lot cheaper over there, maybe you should go live with those wonderful people for a while and share your stories of acceptance and brotherly love?

Talk is cheap reefer, you wouldn't spend a week in any of those countries if it was free.

[WestCanMan]

Ever read the bible?

Hide under your bed. They're coming for you. But you can defend yourself with a crucifix and by eating garlic. And they can't come into your house unless you invite them...

Oh, wait. That's for vampires.

BE VERY AFRAID.

So you lack the list of similar quotes from the bible, do you want to compare a list of terrorist activities next?

[WestCanMan]

There is an organization called "Pegida" – Patriotic Europeans Against the Islamisation of the Occident centered in Germany. I suggest that the anti-Muslims posting here might look at their literature for re-enforcement. The group recently created an instrumental song Gemeinsam sind wir stark – German for “Together we are strong” – which was released over Christmas. Amazon was criticised for making money from sales of the song.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/dec/31/amazon-to-donate-pegida-song-profits-to-refugee-charity

Amazon has since decided to give any profits away. “Amazon’s profits from the sale of this song will go to a non-profit-making organisation supporting refugees,” the company said.

Looks like the anti-Muslims just can't get a break!

You're right Big Guy, those songs are right on par with the acts of terrorism that are committed every day, all over the world where there are large muslim populations. Give yourself a pat on the back.

[WestCanMan]

ISIL's narrative to all Muslims is that the West is intolerant of and poses a threat to all of Islam.

It's called fear mongering and that's one of the tools they use to justify killing. They didn't just start it in the last 100 years, they have been saying it since they started killing off the polytheists around Mecca. FYI, that happened before they knew about the USA.

This new wave of massacring people and destroying everything related any other religion aside from Islam isn't so new, it's straight out of Mohammed's playbook.

[eyeball]

What is it if not Islamic Society?

Then it would have to be the illiberalism that's causing all the trouble. There's no need to call anyone any names and no need to go after anyone's religion, just the things that's make them godawful...like good olde fashioned hard-boiled conservatism.

I mean, there's just no way anyone could ever pin this on an....Islamic hippy or trade unionist for example.

[eyeball]

That is, at most, a subtext. The West is simply not that important as a part of ISIL's narrative, or at least, it wasn't until the West started bombing them. Their main call to arms is on establishing the Caliphate anew, to encompass all Muslim countries and eventually, the world.

And all 0.005% of the Muslim world has rushed to join the Caliphate.

Just the world you say? We better warn the galaxy.

[jacee]

What is it if not Islamic Society?

Extremism.

Islamic terrorism is not a reflection on all Muslim society.

Just like Israeli extremism and terrorism is not a reflection on all of Jewish society.

Or Catholic priest pedophile terrorism is not a reflection on all Catholic society.

Or Christian mass killings ... terrorism ... are not a reflection on all Christian society.

It's not rocket science, Rue.

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[jacee]

That is, at most, a subtext. The West is simply not that important as a part of ISIL's narrative, or at least, it wasn't until the West started bombing them. Their main call to arms is on establishing the Caliphate anew, to encompass all Muslim countries and eventually, the world.

Their means of accomplishing that requires that Muslims be rejected by the Western world, and run back to ISIS.

The West bombing innocent Muslims is helping ISIS with that, radicalizing more Muslims.

Feeding Western Islamophobia is part of ISIS' strategy.

Deputy National Security Adviser Ben Rhodes told reporters that "any indication that supports the notion that the U.S. is at war with Islam will be taken advantage of by terrorist organizations."

So clearly, those promoting and participating in Islamophobia are working on behalf of ISIS.

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Edited January 3, 2016 by jacee

[bush_cheney2004]

....The West bombing innocent Muslims is helping ISIS with that, radicalizing more Muslims.

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??? So the "West" bombing guilty as hell Muslims does not help ISIS ?

[WestCanMan]

And all 0.005% of the Muslim world has rushed to join the Caliphate.

Just the world you say? We better warn the galaxy.

50% of the muslims are women, and males under 16 and over 40 account for about 50% of the males. So about 75% of Muslims don't fit the bill for being active in IS.

Therefor the .005 comes from about 25% of the population, assuming that Sunni & Shia set aside their differences to do this together (doubt it but let's pretend). That means that 1/50 males of military age are in there, or 2%. Then there are men in that demographic who support it but are too afraid to fight, disabled, don't have the means to get there, have family & obligations, etc.

2% of all available males seems alarmingly high imo.

When you say .005% do you mean 0.005 of one 1% (5 out of 100,000) or 5/1000? It's not unconventional to say .750% meaning 75%. It's normal in baseball for example.

If you meant .005 of 1% that still makes .02/100 available males (1/5,000). It's a lot, when you consider that they are signing up to massacre women and children, not just to fight against other men. It's disgusting.

[WestCanMan]

List Catholicism as a criminal organization, eg, for its policies of obstructing the law to harbour and protect pedophiles.

IE, You might not want to go down that road. :/

.

Then what do you want to do about the muslim countries where sex with very young boys is a legal, a time honoured tradition?

Look at me going down that road...

[eyeball]

50% of the muslims are women, and males under 16 and over 40 account for about 50% of the males. So about 75% of Muslims don't fit the bill for being active in IS.

Therefor the .005 comes from about 25% of the population, assuming that Sunni & Shia set aside their differences to do this together (doubt it but let's pretend). That means that 1/50 males of military age are in there, or 2%. Then there are men in that demographic who support it but are too afraid to fight, disabled, don't have the means to get there, have family & obligations, etc.

2% of all available males seems alarmingly high imo.

When you say .005% do you mean 0.005 of one 1% (5 out of 100,000) or 5/1000? It's not unconventional to say .750% meaning 75%. It's normal in baseball for example.

If you meant .005 of 1% that still makes .02/100 available males (1/5,000). It's a lot, when you consider that they are signing up to massacre women and children, not just to fight against other men. It's disgusting.

I mean about 80,000 fighters. That was the last number I recall reading about a month or so ago.

As I've said before its just a good thing they're not Spartans. They likely would have conquered the galaxy by now.

Edited January 3, 2016 by eyeball

[SRV]

You think you have any credibility with me sitting in Canada playing defender of Palestinians against bad Zionist settlers? That's the shtick you wanna play? You sound to me like a Monty Python sketch.

The point I was trying to make was simply that one reason it might be less likely that anti-Semitism in Canada will give rise in terrorist acts committed by radicalized Jews is that Canada is not part of a global coalition that has declared a global war on Jewish terrorists. To illustrate my point I created a hypothesis in which there was such a global war declared on hypothetical Jewish terrorists for hypothetical reasons. I thought that much would be clear from the part that said "if there were simultaneously, let's say for the sake of argument a Western coalition bombing illegal Zionist settler cells in the West Bank... " etc. My point was simply that anti-Semitism is probably experienced differently by Jew living in Canada than Islamophobia is by Muslims because Jewish people are not the primary suspects in a GWOT, while Muslim people are. If they were (they obviously are not), things might be different.

Your Monty Python references are lost on my because either I have not seen, or don't remember that particular sketch. I am also having trouble deciphering your analogies with reference to parrots, voles, wombats and womb-bats, and other rodents. I'm sure there's a key that might help make sense out of the whole thing. The Palestinians are the wombats. I, and presumably others are titmouses nfor some reason. Voles are what? Squatters? Original inhabitants? Settlers? Or is all that Monty Pythons stuff too, as I presume the cheeses to be?

You are right, I have never personally spent time in the West Bank. I am, however, part of a rather small international organization that has had a permanent presence in the West Bank for over twenty-five years. Some of its members, past and present, are/were Muslim and Christian Palestinians. The organization has documented dozens of attacks on Palestinians by settlers, and its members have themselves been the victims of such attacks. (BTW, Are my references to attacks by Israeli settlers on Palestinians in my hypothetical scenario part of of the reason for all the condescension and vitriol in your response?) I want you to know that not all of my admitted limited knowledge about the Palestinian Israeli conflict comes to me via the internet. And I do know, for instance, that there is a variety of opinion amongst Palestinians, and not all of them are Muslim; and that there is a variety of opinion amongst both conservative and orthodox Jews (as you yourself have pointed out on various occasions). Some of Iraqi friends, for instance, were astounded to learn that some Jews help Palestinians rebuild their bulldozed houses.

I am certainly no expert on Palestine or Palestinian/Israeli relations and all its nuances. I repeat, I have spent no time there, and only a couple of years in the ME --specifically Iraq. I have spent more time in Central America, and spend most of the last ten years in South America, with periodic visits to Canada, which is where I am now.

Although much of your response is lost on me, I am curious about some of the things you said:

.. Trespassing does not make a vole an illegal vole it makes their possession of land disputable in court and subject to a superior claim if in fact that superior claim can be proven. That superior claim by the way is not from the kingdom of wombats in their entirety, but an individual wombat angry as a titmouse over not being able to live where the vole now is.

... Ok Mr. Canadian Titmouse.

Get t back to me when you have done a land title search on your property. Go on look in your tree of ancestry before you point your superior Caucasian Christian finger at me....me thinks you have rat in your ancestry.

Are you taking the position that the Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply and that the continuation of the building of settlements is legal and complies with international law? And are you saying that Palestinians have a viable option of getting their land back or seeking compensation for lost property in Israeli courts? The courts of the same country that provides settlers with protection of the IDF, but does not mandate or allow the IDF to protect Palestinians from settler violence?

As for rats in my ancestry I doubtlessly have several, although I know very little. I am a Canadian-born child of Friesian immigrants who moved to and settled in Canada from Holland in 1952. I don't know what role the Friesians played in all of that, but Holland sure has played its role in the colonization of and 'illegal' settlements in South Africa, Indonesia, etc. and got rich from the slave trade of Africans.

P.S. Please refrain from making reference to parrots, camels, yaks and rodents in your response.

Edited January 3, 2016 by SRV

[WestCanMan]

I mean about 80,000 fighters. That was the last number I recall reading about a month or so ago.

As I've said before its just a good thing they're not Spartans. They likely would have conquered the galaxy by now.

If they had a better chance of winning they would have a lot more members too. Not a lot of people like their odds against hellfire missiles when they are running across the desert.

[eyeball]

If they had a better chance of winning they would have a lot more members too. Not a lot of people like their odds against hellfire missiles when they are running across the desert.

The thing that will kill ISIS fastest is having to govern 20 - 30 million people. These will chafe and overthrow them just as fast as ISIS overthrew their last overlords.

Our presence is only helping to prolong the day ISIS has only itself to account for its raison d'etre.

Like I said though it's a good thing they're not Spartans although given the fear ISIS seems to have generated you'd think it was like the combined threat of Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin were coming down on the world at the same time. It's just absolutely ridiculous.

[Big Guy]

It's called fear mongering and that's one of the tools they use to justify killing. They didn't just start it in the last 100 years, they have been saying it since they started killing off the polytheists around Mecca. FYI, that happened before they knew about the USA.

This new wave of massacring people and destroying everything related any other religion aside from Islam isn't so new, it's straight out of Mohammed's playbook.

If you really believe that then what do you suggest that we do about it?

I assume that you are not just looking for something to complain about but have some intelligent solutions.

[Argus]

Extremism.

Islamic terrorism is not a reflection on all Muslim society.

Why do you suppose Islamic terrorism is so frequent and widespread all over the world if it has nothing to do with Islam?

What do you think of the extremist social values espoused by so many Muslims with regard to women, gays and religious minorities?