Even Muslim countries ban the NIqab - so why not Canada?

[Argus]

Yaaaaay! The new Conservative coalition: elderly redneck anglophones and snooty pur-laine francophones!

-k

I'm not sure why you're targeting 'elderly rednecks' since polls have consistently shown massive support for Harper's position across every party line, across age, gender, and race. The last polls I saw showed immigrants were more opposed to the niqab than 'old stock' Canadians.

[PIK]

And still are.

[Jariax]

The people that are most vociferous in their want to ban the niqab, aren't doing so because of concerns of voter fraud, or because they want to help women get out of oppressive relationships. They are doing so, because they hope by banning them, devout Muslims will stay out of Canada. 

There's a compromise to be made, where women remove them at voting offices, citizenship ceremonies etc, but accommodations can be made so that they don't show their face during those times. 

But to ban them completely, is a violation of freedom. These are grown women, and they should be able to make up their own minds, as opposed to having Canadians dictate what they should and shouldn't be allowed to believe. 

 

[PIK]

1 hour ago, Jariax said:

The people that are most vociferous in their want to ban the niqab, aren't doing so because of concerns of voter fraud, or because they want to help women get out of oppressive relationships. They are doing so, because they hope by banning them, devout Muslims will stay out of Canada. 

There's a compromise to be made, where women remove them at voting offices, citizenship ceremonies etc, but accommodations can be made so that they don't show their face during those times. 

But to ban them completely, is a violation of freedom. These are grown women, and they should be able to make up their own minds, as opposed to having Canadians dictate what they should and shouldn't be allowed to believe. 

 

It is our country with our laws and traditions, they have no right to force anything onto us. It is a form of oppression and people need to understand Islam, for what it really stands for. And why is canada the only country doing it.

[Jariax]

4 minutes ago, PIK said:

It is our country with our laws and traditions, they have no right to force anything onto us. It is a form of oppression and people need to understand Islam, for what it really stands for. And why is canada the only country doing it.

1) When you say it is 'our' country. Who does 'our' refer to? White people? Christians? Non-immigrants. People born in Canada?
2) What is it you think you are forced to do, if we don't ban the niqab. 
3) So you feel that grown women shouldn't be allowed to make up their own minds on this? 
4) You think that Canada is the only country in the world that allows the niqab? 

Also, you seem very concerned about oppressed Muslim women. I am sure you would therefore like to open up our borders and admit many more of them. 

[PIK]

1 hour ago, Jariax said:

1) When you say it is 'our' country. Who does 'our' refer to? White people? Christians? Non-immigrants. People born in Canada?
2) What is it you think you are forced to do, if we don't ban the niqab. 
3) So you feel that grown women shouldn't be allowed to make up their own minds on this? 
4) You think that Canada is the only country in the world that allows the niqab? 

Also, you seem very concerned about oppressed Muslim women. I am sure you would therefore like to open up our borders and admit many more of them. 

1- people born here and came legally and did everything possible to fit in.

2- Forcing the country to changes its laws to fit something that is IMO barbaric and regression, not progression

3- We can't be sure if they are being forced or not, now white women that change over are just doing it to be difficult..

4- I mean the only country that wants to change everything to appease one religious group over everyone else. 

Do you want to live in a country that gets along or divided? And it is dividing as we speak. And what has Islam done for this country to deserve such special treatment?

[Argus]

5 hours ago, Jariax said:

The people that are most vociferous in their want to ban the niqab, aren't doing so because of concerns of voter fraud, or because they want to help women get out of oppressive relationships. They are doing so, because they hope by banning them, devout Muslims will stay out of Canada. 

Is that not a worthy goal?

[Jariax]

What laws do you think we'r

3 hours ago, PIK said:

1- people born here and came legally and did everything possible to fit in.

2- Forcing the country to changes its laws to fit something that is IMO barbaric and regression, not progression

3- We can't be sure if they are being forced or not, now white women that change over are just doing it to be difficult..

4- I mean the only country that wants to change everything to appease one religious group over everyone else. 

Do you want to live in a country that gets along or divided? And it is dividing as we speak. And what has Islam done for this country to deserve such special treatment?

What laws do you think we are changing to accomodate the niqab? I don't have a problem with not allowing it at citizenship, or other places where photo ID is required. But banning it altogether would require us to change our laws to do the opposite of accommodating them.

We can't be sure that the women are not oppressed, so just restrict their religious freedoms to play it safe, because we're going to assume that their husband is abusive? 

Everyone wants a country that gets along. I'm not sure how you think banning Muslims is going to make that happen? Do you think that will make the Muslims that are already here happy and united? Or do you want to throw them out too?

[Jariax]

24 minutes ago, Argus said:

Is that not a worthy goal?

Quite possibly.

But, let's have an honest conversation about it, instead of pretending it's because we're concerned about the oppressed niqab-wearing women.

There is something to be said for trying to attract immigrants who more closely share our values. I don't particularly want a Canada where I can't walk my dog in public because some groups find them unclean, for instance. Or a culture where we can't celebrate anything, because we would be excluding people. I say let them all in, but stop bending over backwards for them. This is our country, these our values, customs and traditions. If that appeals to you, come on over. If that doesn't, there's plenty of other countries to choose from. 

[Altai]

So what is the reasoning for banning niqab ? There should be a logical reason.

[drummindiver]

13 minutes ago, Jariax said:

 

What laws do you think we are changing to accomodate the niqab? 

Really? We're not allowed to say we oppose, because M103.

And clearly you're a racist if you think someone taking a pledge of allegiance to their new country should do it with their face showing.

[Goddess]

25 minutes ago, Altai said:

So what is the reasoning for banning niqab ? There should be a logical reason.

1.  It's a garment long used to oppress women.

2. It's currently experiencing a revival all around the world because Islamic extremists are promoting it and Muslims and people who don't really care about what it represents are all buying into it.

[Rue]

I think Jariax with due respect I like your answers although I loath Niqabs.

I contend for occupational safety, identity, swearing in/oath ceremonies, witnesses on trial, it may be necessary to take off a face covering. I am not comfortable having a state law banning any thing to do with appearance other-wise. In any event the Charter would under s.2 a banning of a face covering without specific reason so its a moot point. One of my concerns are school bus drivers with full face coverings. It most certainly impairs side vision and it most certainly is an issue with children in terms of having to know who is driving the bus. That's my personal opinion.

As for attire other than full face coverings  I say if someone wants to cover their head or wear certain attire, I don't need government to police it for me. I see men coming to Canada insisting on wearing certain garment appropriate for the hot desert. As soon as the weather changes and it dips below 20 degrees centigrade out come their winter coats and scarves. The fact is the weather straightens people out pretty quick in Canada as to what is appropriate. We don't need a government to do that.

I encourage rigorous debate on what the full face covering means and challenging it in a respectful way. The way to have a positive influence on challenging, curtailing and containing such values is to openly challenge them with free debate. The moment you use government censorship, the beliefs you are trying to ban just go underground and make martyrs of the people who choose to wear such garments.

That said many interest groups in the name of tolerance and accommodation demand special treatments and segregation for their activities. The current government sends the message its a right and will be accommodated if the government feels the special interest group is to their liking. I have become very cynical how Trudeau chooses which special interest groups he poses with and panders for votes. Its crass politics at its worse and it never fails every day when Trudeau poses to give one of his Uh UH UH speeches he poses it with assigned minorities standing behind him smiling. He's a manipulative grease monkey playing up to special interest groups posing with them. He sends out a very slimy, manipulative divisive message doing that.

Me I hate tokenism. I hate being a token or being used as a token, prop, stooge organ grinder monkey for stock photos or media bites for Justin. He tried to have me pose happy face with him and and  told him I only pose with Sophie or the current Governor General. 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2017 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Maybe Quebec's approach is not too crazy after all.  Meaning that people will need to show their faces during the process of accessing public services in Quebec.

If you cannot ban it outright, then this is a good compromise.

[eyeball]

19 hours ago, Goddess said:

1.  It's a garment long used to oppress women.

2. It's currently experiencing a revival all around the world because Islamic extremists are promoting it and Muslims and people who don't really care about what it represents are all buying into it.

They're probably promoting it because its so effective at getting deep under the skin of people in the West. Its like fibre glass, the itch drives us nuts.

[Goddess]

57 minutes ago, eyeball said:

They're probably promoting it because its so effective at getting deep under the skin of people in the West. Its like fibre glass, the itch drives us nuts.

Except that it has always been promoted by Islam as a way of oppressing women, long before the West was around.  I don't think that Islamic agenda has changed.  Except that now, they are smart enough to promote it to Western countries as "empowering" and part of "religious freedom" and "personal choice". And some of us are gullible enough to buy that baby.

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, Goddess said:

Except that it has always been promoted by Islam as a way of oppressing women, long before the West was around.  I don't think that Islamic agenda has changed. 

I doubt that too. Unfortunately our agenda breathed life into a fading aspect of Islam that was following similarly grotesque religious beliefs down the toilet bowl of history.

Notice the breath coming back too some of the more grotesque solutions our grand-pappies fought trying to flush away in reaction. 

 

Except that now, they are smart enough to promote it to Western countries as "empowering" and part of "religious freedom" and "personal choice". And some of us are gullible enough to buy that baby.

There's some of that alright but the bang for that buck is nothing compared to the KABOOM it's inspiring amongst right wing conservatives. It's not even close. 

[Bonam]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Notice the breath coming back too some of the more grotesque solutions our grand-pappies fought trying to flush away in reaction. 

As soon as WWII passes out of living memory, its lessons will be forgotten, and the mistakes and horrors that were made then will be made all over again. 

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, Bonam said:

As soon as WWII passes out of living memory, its lessons will be forgotten, and the mistakes and horrors that were made then will be made all over again. 

Apparently the stupid morons couldn't even keep it straight between WW1 and WW2.

[Thinkinoutsidethebox]

On 03/11/2017 at 11:58 AM, Goddess said:

Except that it has always been promoted by Islam as a way of oppressing women, long before the West was around.  I don't think that Islamic agenda has changed.  Except that now, they are smart enough to promote it to Western countries as "empowering" and part of "religious freedom" and "personal choice". And some of us are gullible enough to buy that baby.

It's not oppressive to women to outlaw it? 

Dresses should be outlawed as Mennonites and Hutterites require their women wear them? 

The cross should be outlawed as Christianity has oppressed women forever?

It's not the object or symbol, it's the people with the power... 

[Altai]

Its just a stupid excuse. If you think that women are oppressed by men to wear somethings, you need to prevent these guys who is forcing them. I am sure there are such women who feels like she have to wear these clothes despite they dont want to. There are also many women who wear these clothes because they feel much better. 

 

Here the aim have nothing with clothes or women rights or any other excuses. The main reason is to ban anything which is thought to be about Islam, so anti-Islamism.

[taxme]

On 10/14/2015 at 5:47 PM, Argus said:

 

I'm not sure why you're targeting 'elderly rednecks' since polls have consistently shown massive support for Harper's position across every party line, across age, gender, and race. The last polls I saw showed immigrants were more opposed to the niqab than 'old stock' Canadians.

Sometimes I have to question the mentality of that "old Canadian stock". When I have watched demonstrations on Youtube, there appears to be more non-whites than whites demonstrating against the niqab or special treatment for Muslims in school and swimming pools. Are white people that afraid and are that scared of being called a racist that they won't get out there and protest against the niqab? White people better get off their butts and get their butts in gear soon or else white women one day may have to wear the burka. Just saying. 

[taxme]

On 11/2/2017 at 9:24 AM, PIK said:

It is our country with our laws and traditions, they have no right to force anything onto us. It is a form of oppression and people need to understand Islam, for what it really stands for. And why is canada the only country doing it.

I cannot understand why new immigrants coming to Canada from around the world do not get in line and start becoming Canadian. Why do they have to bring with them their culture, religions, languages and traditions with them and expect and try to hang on to them. Did they not come to Canada to become Canadian or not. If they did then start looking like a Canadian. I find it offensive seeing a Muslim woman wearing a burka or niqab. They look rather silly especially when they go to the beach in 85 degree heat all covered up. There is no need for them to do so. They are in Canada now. 

Unfortunately, Canada is not the only country doing this. Many European countries are doing the same also. Canada has become a silly stupid looking country because it is full of silly stupid looking politically correct politicians and that is why Canada is fast becoming all fkd up nation. There is no way that a country will last long with dozens of different cultures vying for dominance and control, and this will happen as time goes on. Our present day immigration policy is responsible for all of this. We need a moratorium on immigration for at least seven to ten years to help get Canada back to where it once was. A great WASP nation.  Works for me.  

[taxme]

On 11/2/2017 at 9:34 AM, Jariax said:

1) When you say it is 'our' country. Who does 'our' refer to? White people? Christians? Non-immigrants. People born in Canada?
2) What is it you think you are forced to do, if we don't ban the niqab. 
3) So you feel that grown women shouldn't be allowed to make up their own minds on this? 
4) You think that Canada is the only country in the world that allows the niqab? 

Also, you seem very concerned about oppressed Muslim women. I am sure you would therefore like to open up our borders and admit many more of them. 

1. Caucasian and Christians. 

2. Those mentioned above are being forced to accept dozens of different languages, religions and traditions that they did not want or never asked for, and have been paying for decades now. Why would any sane people want to flood their own country with dozens of different cultures where many of them are incompatible with ours? The forced wearing of the burka or niqab are 10th century old Islamist archaic laws that need some big time overhauling. And that is what Caucasian, Christian Canadians are being forced to live with and accept without a whimper. This does not work for me. Maybe trudeau and you but not for this cowboy. This is Canada not some Arab country. 

3. I believe that if these Muslim women had a choice between having to wear clothing that covers them up from head to toe or even their faces or not having to do so, I am pretty sure that they would go for the Canadian look. It's too bad that there is not a vote allowed for these Muslim women to see if they are in favor of carrying on with their religious tradition or changing it. Then that should settle it once and for all. 

4. Unfortunately, Canada is not the only one of the many dumb ass European countries on earth that allow coveralls. By allowing these women to wear their coveralls is just a slap in the face to the host people by saying we are here and we are not going to assimilate. 

My opinion and beliefs. 

[taxme]

On 11/2/2017 at 2:01 PM, Jariax said:

What laws do you think we'r

What laws do you think we are changing to accomodate the niqab? I don't have a problem with not allowing it at citizenship, or other places where photo ID is required. But banning it altogether would require us to change our laws to do the opposite of accommodating them.

We can't be sure that the women are not oppressed, so just restrict their religious freedoms to play it safe, because we're going to assume that their husband is abusive? 

Everyone wants a country that gets along. I'm not sure how you think banning Muslims is going to make that happen? Do you think that will make the Muslims that are already here happy and united? Or do you want to throw them out too?

Our past immigration policy of many decades ago preferred to have our new immigrants to immigrate from the British Isles, Europe and Australia. There was none of this multicultural and diversity sillyness going on like what we are seeing today. Those new immigrants assimilated very easy into the Canadian culture with no problems at all and mainly because they were what is called "children of a common mother". Now our new immigrants are mostly coming from the third world and they are bringing with them their many cultures and hanging onto to those many traditions without any attempt in trying to get rid of them and assimilate anymore. You know and must see that? 

Canadians should not be accommodating any culture or religion like what Canada is doing today. Canadians are even paying big tax dollars to help them keep their culture and religion and languages. This is sheer stupidity on the part of our dear leader politicians. 

Ask the women first and let us see if they really want to walk around all covered up from head to toe in Canada. Why don't their husbands allow their women to walk around freely without being all covered up? If they say that they must because of their religion well why the hell did they come to Canada when there are plenty of Islamist countries that they could have gone too. 

No country can expect that there will be peace forever when they keep bringing in dozens of foreign religions languages and traditions where many of those cultures are being forced to live together with people that they do not like and have had conflicts with with people from the same country. 

Maybe they would be quite happy if they were allowed to throw off the coveralls. If not then why live in Canada? Just saying.