Guest Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) I believe that it depends on what reasons you give for your opinion. I fully agree. If I say that I view the niqab as a repression on women and am against its use then that is a useful and valid position. If I say I view the niqab as a womans freedom of choice and am not against it then that is a useful and valid opinion. When you express an opinion that somehow Muslims are inferior to others then that crosses the line - to me. Because you do not agree with the cultural or religious practices of another population does not make your superior or theirs inferior. There are numerous examples of the cultural and/or religious practices of other populations that make them inferior to mine. Whether or not I agree with them is irrelevant. (I just happen not to) Edited October 12, 2015 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) When a culture marries off their children to pedophiles I'd say that's inferior and criminal. When a culture forces women to wear Burqas, can't go to school, can't be seen in public without a man, that's inferior. Edited October 12, 2015 by WestCoastRunner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poochy Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 When a culture marries off their children to pedophiles I'd say that's inferior and criminal. When a culture forces women to wear Burqas, can't go to school, can't be seen in public without a man, that's inferior Absolutely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Interesting views. There are a number of practices that have evolved over the years in different populations in different parts of the world. There are many which I do not understand, I find bizarre and would never practice - but that does not make those folks inferior to me. They are different. They may be looking at my culture and finding it bizarre, strange and laden with distasteful rituals. That too is their choice. For me, to label something as inferior to mine then I am assuming that mine is superior to theirs. That is arrogance. That also means that the way I think and view the world is better than the way they think and view the world. It is not, it is different. I personally do believe that all men (women) are created equal and due the same respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) When a culture marries off their children to pedophiles I'd say that's inferior and criminal. When a culture forces women to wear Burqas, can't go to school, can't be seen in public without a man, that's inferior. When a culture implements public policy so that some people have to make a choice between working or not working, going to school or not going to school, being arrested or staying home based entirely on single item of clothing - that's inferior. Edited October 12, 2015 by dialamah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 When a culture implements public policy so that some people have to make a choice between working or not working, going to school or not going to school, being arrested or staying home based entirely on single item of clothing - that's inferior. When a culture implements policies that marginalizes women, and those women feel inferior, that is a definition of an inferior culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Interesting views. There are a number of practices that have evolved over the years in different populations in different parts of the world. There are many which I do not understand, I find bizarre and would never practice - but that does not make those folks inferior to me. They are different. They may be looking at my culture and finding it bizarre, strange and laden with distasteful rituals. That too is their choice. For me, to label something as inferior to mine then I am assuming that mine is superior to theirs. That is arrogance. That also means that the way I think and view the world is better than the way they think and view the world. It is not, it is different. I personally do believe that all men (women) are created equal and due the same respect. What is arrogant are those men who seek to marginalize women in their cultures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 When a culture implements policies that marginalizes women, and those women feel inferior, that is a definition of an inferior culture. Exactly my point, too. I'm glad we agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Guy Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 What is arrogant are those men who seek to marginalize women in their cultures. Many of these cultures are still evolving with many illiterate and innumerate. My point is that you take a newborn from a village in Africa or a tent in the Sahara or a brothel in Calcutta and place them into a stable family in North America, then you will end up in a few years with a stable, well adjusted and educated teenager. The culture and lifestyle are developed based on their living conditions and needs to survive. In many cultures the elderly are left to die because the rest of the group cannot afford to feed an unproductive member at the cost of a productive one or a child. You seem to feel that the marginalization of women by some men is some genetic defective hate gene that men carry which makes them want to demean women. The more educated, stable and wealthy societies tend to treat all people equally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 My point is that you take a newborn from a village in Africa or a tent in the Sahara or a brothel in Calcutta and place them into a stable family in North America, then you will end up in a few years with a stable, well adjusted and educated teenager. Cite ? Do you have a cite of any teenager who satisfies this criteria ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Cite ? Do you have a cite of any teenager who satisfies this criteria ? Just to clarify, are you suggesting that raising someone from birth to adulthood wouldn't almost guarantee an adult who followed the cultural norms they were raised with? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Cite ? Do you have a cite of any teenager who satisfies this criteria ? You need a citation that culture is learned? This is a basic, commonly accepted definition of culture. It's shared symbols, including knowledge, values, and social skills that are learned and reinforced by institutions (family, laws, religion, etc). This isn't something that typically needs a reference, since it's so commonly accepted and has been for at least two generations of scholarship if not longer. I'm sure if you type "what is culture" into Google you'll find hundreds of links that say the same thing, though I haven't checked myself so my assumption could be wrong. I doubt it though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 You need a citation that culture is learned? No, that teenagers taken from somewhere else are perfect when air-dropped into North America, or indeed are even better off. I take exception to evidently-egotistical macro-level cultural superiority gloats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybercoma Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 No, that teenagers taken from somewhere The passage you quoted said taking a newborn from somewhere and raising them somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 When a culture implements public policy so that some people have to make a choice between working or not working, going to school or not going to school, being arrested or staying home based entirely on single item of clothing - that's inferior.Good thing Canada doesn't do that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Exactly my point, too. I'm glad we agree. You don't agree. You are flippant about culture that marginalizes women, and wrongly accuse our democratically elected government of also doing this, which is demonstratively false. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 (edited) Many of these cultures are still evolving with many illiterate ---SNIP--- The more educated, stable and wealthy societies tend to treat all people equally. These cultures are still evolving? We're in the 21st century man, what the hell do you mean still evolving? How long does it take to evolve to know forced marriage with children is wrong, fgm is wrong, killing and torturing due to sexual orientation is wrong. None of these are needed to survive. And your "take a newborn" analogy could not be further from the truth. Ppl born or adopted into these stable homes in these societies can become maladjusted. Edited October 12, 2015 by Charles Anthony [---SNIP---] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Good thing Canada doesn't do that.. France did it when they banned the niqab/burka. Some women in France now have to choose to either go out and risk being charged, or stay home where they are free to wear a niqab. Some people think Canada should do the same. I do not. She arrived at court and agreed to lift her veil so security guards could check her identity, but they refused to allow her access until an exasperated prosecutor buzzed her in himself. The prosecutor, whom she described as "very human", wanted to better understand why she wore the niqab. She converted at 17 and put on the niqab several years later, long before meeting her husband. Her North African parents-in-law didn't like her wearing full-veil, and the marriage ended. Her own parents converted to Islam a few years later but don't believe a niqab is necessary. She told the prosecutor it was her choice and refused to stop wearing niqab. The prosecutor reminded her of the law and let her go with no sanction or punishment. He told the local paper,Nice Matin, that a woman in a veil was less dangerous than someone who had "double or triple parked". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 You don't agree. You are flippant about culture that marginalizes women, and wrongly accuse our democratically elected government of also doing this, which is demonstratively false. Or, I think it's wrong for any government to dictate what a woman can wear. Saudi Arabia is wrong for telling women they must wear a burka when they go out. France is wrong for telling women they must not wear a burka to go out. If Canada thinks it should go down the same road as France, I think that would be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drummindiver Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Or, I think it's wrong for any government to dictate what a woman can wear. Saudi Arabia is wrong for telling women they must wear a burka when they go out. France is wrong for telling women they must not wear a burka to go out. If Canada thinks it should go down the same road as France, I think that would be wrong. I've never heard anyone in Canada be a proponent of outlawing the niqab. I have heard they should not be worn when taking citizenship oaths to become part of our Canadian family. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCoastRunner Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 . You seem to feel that the marginalization of women by some men is some genetic defective hate gene that men carry which makes them want to demean women. The more educated, stable and wealthy societies tend to treat all people equally. Yea the rulers in Saudia Arabia treat women as equals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Because our Charter says your ilk's desire to see your opinions turned into law is beneath our contempt. You realize that if 90% of the population refused to support the Charter it would be gone, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 Oh come on CC. Do we really need to label dissenting voices on the niqabs as bigots and morons or misinformed. We all have an opinion on the niqab for different reasons. It really doesn't matter who the woman is or when she is identified to some of us. But, please don't label us with those derogatory terms. It's insulting to us and to the integrity of this site. Let's be civil and let everyone express an opinion even if it may not agree with you. I think some people like to feel morally superior to those who disagree with them. It makes them feel important and that their arguments, whatever they are, make them better people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Because you do not agree with the cultural or religious practices of another population does not make your superior or theirs inferior. But ours IS superior to theirs on every conceivable metric. Ours is open to democracy, to religious freedom, to free choices of morality and sexuality among individuals, to compromise and inclusiveness, to equality and non-violence. There's are generally not open to any of those things. It is not bigotry to say this. It comes from looking at their culture, looking at ours, and making a fairly clear cut comparison on substantive issues. Only a buffoon would dismiss that as bigotry. Edited October 13, 2015 by Argus Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CITIZEN_2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Report Share Posted October 13, 2015 I think some people like to feel morally superior to those who disagree with them. It makes them feel important and that their arguments, whatever they are, make them better people. And some people like to feel superior to those who disagree with them because those some people claim to make more money using phrases like "I make more money than you pay in taxes". It makes them feel important and their arguments whatever they are make them better people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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