Cecil the Lion and the Phenomena of Public Shaming.

[WWWTT]

Why such an outpouring over one lion why are they not concerned about us

Ya and my comments on this thread ALL revolve around this!

Why the huge concern over the environment/ecosystem and wildlife in developing non white western countries?

Why?

Many issues right here at home, but apart from seal protests and some environmental issues, pretty much squat!

WWWTT

[kimmy]

I don't agree with trophy hunting either, but some African countries allow it and are baffled by our concern.

http://news.yahoo.com/minnesota-man-killed-lion-keeps-low-profile-amid-055219642.html

"It's so cruel, but I don't understand the whole fuss, there are so many pressing issues in Zimbabwe — we have water shortages, no electricity and no jobs — yet people are making noise about a lion?" said Eunice Vhunise, a Harare resident. "I saw Cecil once when I visited the game park. I will probably miss him. But honestly the attention is just too much."

http://www.chronicle.co.zw/cecil-whats-going-on/

Why such an outpouring over one lion why are they not concerned about us

They do allow big game hunting. They have a system involving quotas and permits, and they select specific older animals that are no longer necessary to their herd's reproductive survival, and the money raised is used to maintain the wildlands the animals need.

But along comes Bungalow Bill here and says "screw your quotas and permits! I need my lion-fur rug RIGHT NOW!" and instead of buying a proper permit from the proper authorities he gives his money to a couple of shady poachers, and instead of maintaining the wildlands, the money will probably be used on hookers and blow.

Big Bwana Walt Palmer is just another rich-guy who thinks he's too important to wait in line. Nothing new.

-k

[Bryan]

Something doesn't add up about this story.

ZImbabwe is a very poor country. People are starving. If skirting local laws just to poach was his intent, he easily could have done so for a small fraction of what he's alleged to have paid. The reason you pay tens of thousands of dollars upfront is to get the people who know the regulations to make sure all permits are in order, and everything is on the up and up. Forget an internet backlash, or a fine, the consequences could be ending up in a third world prison. You pay that kind of money to make sure you're not put in that kind of situation.

It seems far more likely that Dr. Walt is a victim of a scam rather than the guilty party.

[On Guard for Thee]

Something doesn't add up about this story.

ZImbabwe is a very poor country. People are starving. If skirting local laws just to poach was his intent, he easily could have done so for a small fraction of what he's alleged to have paid. The reason you pay tens of thousands of dollars upfront is to get the people who know the regulations to make sure all permits are in order, and everything is on the up and up. Forget an internet backlash, or a fine, the consequences could be ending up in a third world prison. You pay that kind of money to make sure you're not put in that kind of situation.

It seems far more likely that Dr. Walt is a victim of a scam rather than the guilty party.

And care to elaborate on how it was a scam?

[jacee]

Ya really.

He already has a conviction for hunting in prohibited territory ... and lying about it.

.

[Bonam]

Something doesn't add up about this story.

It seems far more likely that Dr. Walt is a victim of a scam rather than the guilty party.

That would be more plausible if this guy didn't have a prior history.

Anyway, my thoughts on this are that if this guy did something illegal he should be punished accordingly. But the attention people pay to incidents like this is definitely disproportionate in my opinion. Yeah ok this guy is a douchebag. Great, we can move on now. If you want to cover Africa there are stories of endangered animals being pushed closer to extinction on a far larger scale, stories of human suffering on a far larger scale, and uplifting stories of progress being made as well to cover. But nope, it's a media circus for days.

Whatever, people are stupid. Small minds, small diversions.

[cybercoma]

What is the downside of collective moralizing and shaming ?

Unfamiliar with the history of lynch mobs?

[Michael Hardner]

Unfamiliar with the history of lynch mobs?

I guess, yes, when it goes to that extreme... but collective morality is executed somewhere/somehow - social media or not.

[PIK]

I am a hunter and I would like to see this guy sent back to face the music.

[Bryan]

That would be more plausible if this guy didn't have a prior history.

Seems to me, that experience would be exactly why he'd want to avoid getting into trouble again.

If he deliberately wanted to poach, he could have found someone to do it in Zimbabwe for a few hundred bucks. Even doing it fully above board can be done for under $20K if you look around. Why would he pay $50K (if he really did), unless he really believed he was getting the real thing?

And care to elaborate on how it was a scam?

The scam would be if they took his money with the promise of a legitimate, legal hunt, complete with all necessary permits. If what he ended up getting was not what he paid for, he got ripped off.

[drummindiver]

If he was scammed or not, who cares? He's a douche and is finally receiving a small taste of what he has coming to him.

[Argus]

I am a hunter and I would like to see this guy sent back to face the music.

To Zimbabwe? Not going to happen. No way they or we would extradite anyone to a place with courts which are thoroughly corrupt and completely politicized.

[On Guard for Thee]

To Zimbabwe? Not going to happen. No way they or we would extradite anyone to a place with courts which are thoroughly corrupt and completely politicized.

Looks like the US dept. of Fish and Wildlife is looking into charging him at home.

[Shady]

The problem isn't with the man that killed the lion, but with the people that took his money and arranged it all.

[eyeball]

I disagree, I think Vegans can have an opinion based on their own morals, from a presumptive, highground......I disagree with it, but there you go. The ones I find hypocritical are those that eat factory-farmed pigs, beef, chicken and mutton, yet find hunting to be cruel, teetering on animal abuse.

It's when hunting teeters on teetering species that it becomes...well, abuse just doesn't quite describe it. I think vandalism is probably closer to the word I'm looking for - I think the revulsion is probably on par with that which is expressed for things like exploding giant statues of Buddha.

[eyeball]

Not our call from Norte America to tell African nations what species can and can't be hunted because of "endangered status".

It's our call as Earthlings.

My sister used to work for the WWF and they spent lots of time and money trying to protect lowland gorillas in Rwanda, with little regard for the people living under conditions that nobody here would tolerate. The genocide started right after she left.

Yes well, just look at the high regard that the good old colonialism that planted those seeds of destruction is held. We still support forms of mal-governance around the world that would probably have us slaughtering one another too if we were forced to tolerate it.

[bush_cheney2004]

It's our call as Earthlings.

OK...we "Earthlings" also say stop destroying marine species and ecosystems with commercial fishing. Stop it now.

Yes well, just look at the high regard that the good old colonialism that planted those seeds of destruction is held. We still support forms of mal-governance around the world that would probably have us slaughtering one another too if we were forced to tolerate it.

Then let Africans decide what goes down in Africa. Tell your queen to bugger off.

[On Guard for Thee]

OK...we "Earthlings" also say stop destroying marine species and ecosystems with commercial fishing. Stop it now.

Then let Africans decide what goes down in Africa. Tell your queen to bugger off.

We catch fish, right or wrong so we can eat. We spend 50 k going to Africa to kill something to hang it's head over the fireplace maybe because we can't get it up any other way.

[WIP]

Yeah calling for a summary execution is the kind of PETA stuff that makes people roll their eyes at animal activists.

FWIW, when I last posted, I had just read a couple of the typical condescending liberal columnists on the subject. The worst- Mary Elizabeth Williams of Salon, is complaining and finger-wagging at Mia Farrow for putting the doctor's business address and phone number on a Twitter post. whatever the issue, there's always a liberal telling us what we should be outraged about, how much we should be outraged, and what we should do about it....which devolves into their pointless and ultimately useless aims of holding candlelight vigils, marches....but only peaceful and respectful marches, and'voting for the right candidates.' So, nothing of substance is ever accomplished on issues like creeping Neoliberalism, militarism, let alone actually making any progress on environmental issues! A conservative provides a clear target for anyone on the left, while a liberal claims to be on your side, but facilitates most of the right wing agenda being accomplished!

So, in this lion-hunter story, the issue is not just "killing an animal" or "killing a lion", it's about a segment of the rich and powerful who not only blithely speed up the path of extinction for profit, they do it for fun as well! There have been many stories in the news already over the last 10 years or so, about super-rich American, British and other hunters deliberately targeting lions, leopards, black rhinos, polar bears and other endangered species. It's as if one of their psychotic dreams is to get one of those animals mounted on the wall so they can say they got one before they all vanished!

The misfortune of this pieceofcrap dentist is that he is at the bottom rung of this exclusive club, and so he is more accessible than the former CEO of the Bank of England, who killed a rare lion in Zimbabwe last year, or some of the American trophy hunters which Wikileaks revealed are going on with full knowledge and cooperation also of the US Government. Most of these sociopaths don't have real jobs....at least businesses that are accessible to the public. And they have armed security and homes all around the world...if it gets too hot in one locale. But, a dentist with a very thriving practice, may have a lot of burn money (like a former dentist of mine who put a 32' pool in his backyard for his triathalon training) but, he doesn't have enough money to making him completely unassailable, and that's the main reason why he has become the #1 target of environmentalists and animal welfare activists who look on in horror as rich trophy hunters kill the last of endangered species with impunity.

[WIP]

It is an unnatural state of being, mostly resulting from an over privileged society where we can choose from the multitude of food we have available, it wouldn't have been long ago that having that sort of opinion simply couldn't exist. Because it isn't a natural way of looking at the world, and because it is followed by an extreme minority of people, it is also not those same people that the world should look to as it's moral compass on food, or hunting.

The fact is, we have evolved to hunt, it is a far more normal activity than refusing to eat meat on moral grounds, trophy hunting is a separate issue, the opinion of a vegan on trophy hunting is a lot more than predictable and equally meaningless.

First, let's set the record straight about human origins and what is and what is not human nature. Humans are omnivores, and opportunistic omnivores; which means that we have had a wide-ranging and widely varied diet since homo sapiens became a distinct species. And considering that other primates like chimpanzees, baboons and I think bonobos also, frequently eat insects and will hunt small animals, it's likely our hominid ancestors were also omnivores to some extent.

When we jump to paleolithic and declining numbers of modern hunter/gatherers that existed up till the end of the 20th century, anthropologists have found a wide range in the reliance and importance of hunting for food. Some tribes along the Amazon Valley did no hunting and their only animal protein diet came from collecting insects...likely because plant-based foods were so prolific and abundant.

In the far north, the Inuit who moved across Siberia...North America to Greenland, and maybe the Laplanders of Scandinavia, were the only hunter/gatherer groups who could be described as living primarily by hunting, fishing and whaling. Microscopic examination of teeth from old human burials reveals that even the societies that place great esteem and emphasis on the hunt...were still getting most of their nutritional needs from a plant-based diet. On this point, the attitudes of the first generations of anthropologists becomes an important factor: because the men...who mostly came from England and started fanning out around the world, going into jungles and deserts to study the last people living in the wild, were almost totally focused on what the men were doing and what they viewed as important.

So, the fact that the bulk of the nutritional needs of an extended family group were gathered by the women of the tribe, wasn't as important as watching men do some sort of a ritual for good luck and go out on a hunt....they may more often than not, end up with the group returning to camp empty-handed or collecting some meager game that would only serve as an addition to the common meal....not actually be enough to feed the whole group!

So, to answer a question like: can a person today live a healthy life as a vegan? the answer is more or less Yes. And, can we have a healthy diet with a small or at most - moderate amount of meat? Yes. The simple facts of human biology are that we are creatures in a long transition from vegetarian to omnivore. So, we can meet nutritional needs from animal protein/ but our long intestinal tracts create problems for meat eaters that will hit them later in life...especially the high meat consumers following the average North American diet! And a vegan diet is doable, but difficult and takes planning and effort, because we have lost the capacity to easily extract proteins and a lot of the trace elements from plant sources.

For myself, I am a vegan because every steak, hamburger, eggs, milk, chicken etc. that I might buy from the supermarket or some fast food joint, is more money to support industrial animal agriculture...which is one of the primary environmental threats along with causing animal suffering on an unimaginably massive scale! If I ever get to move back to the country again, I'll raise a few chickens, go fishing (if I'm near clean water) and maybe even go deer-hunting again...which I haven't had the chance to do in over 20 years. So, for me, hunting is not necessarily evil....but hunting endangered species obviously is! And eating meat and dairy products isn't necessarily harmful for us, but I'm not giving any dollars to support factory farming.

[kimmy]

One thing I find odd is that I thought you were required to have a certain grade of weaponry before you go hunting (ie, in Canada you're not allowed to hunt deer with a .22). And I thought that in most parts of Africa, a .375 H&H rifle was considered the minimum amount of firepower to go hunting for big game.

It seems odd that a bow would be legal for hunting lions, for reasons demonstrated by this story. Unless you're Katniss Everdeen or Hawkeye, maybe you should get a proper weapon for hunting.

-k

[kimmy]

But the attention people pay to incidents like this is definitely disproportionate in my opinion. Yeah ok this guy is a douchebag. Great, we can move on now. If you want to cover Africa there are stories of endangered animals being pushed closer to extinction on a far larger scale, stories of human suffering on a far larger scale, and uplifting stories of progress being made as well to cover. But nope, it's a media circus for days.

Whatever, people are stupid. Small minds, small diversions.

I think a significant portion of the anger being directed toward this dentist is as a proxy for all of the other poachers who are bringing species closer to extinction.

Like, usually we don't get to put a face to the crime. We know that white rhinos have been brought to the brink of extinction because some dumb-ass Asians think powdered rhino horn will give them larger dongs and will pay outrageous sums of money for rhino horns. But we don't ever get to see the morons who are buying rhino horns, or the poachers who are feeding this demand.

But now we've got a real live poacher, and he's a stand-in for all the other douchebags out there who we never get to rage at.

-k

[bush_cheney2004]

One thing I find odd is that I thought you were required to have a certain grade of weaponry before you go hunting (ie, in Canada you're not allowed to hunt deer with a .22). And I thought that in most parts of Africa, a .375 H&H rifle was considered the minimum amount of firepower to go hunting for big game.

Modern archery equipment and hunting arrows are quite lethal in the hands of a skilled user. I suspect that the efficacy of bow hunting with repect to kill shots is probably no worse than firearms, and typically range distances are shorter compared to rifles.

A Rage broadhead tipped hunting arrow has a big cutting diameter....

[On Guard for Thee]

Modern archery equipment and hunting arrows are quite lethal in the hands of a skilled user. I suspect that the efficacy of bow hunting with repect to kill shots is probably no worse than firearms, and typically range distances are shorter compared to rifles.

A Rage broadhead tipped hunting arrow has a big cutting diameter....

I wonder then why they had to chase this lion for something like 40 hours after they had wounded it bfore they could actually put it out of it's misery.

[Derek 2.0]

One thing I find odd is that I thought you were required to have a certain grade of weaponry before you go hunting (ie, in Canada you're not allowed to hunt deer with a .22). And I thought that in most parts of Africa, a .375 H&H rifle was considered the minimum amount of firepower to go hunting for big game.

It seems odd that a bow would be legal for hunting lions, for reasons demonstrated by this story. Unless you're Katniss Everdeen or Hawkeye, maybe you should get a proper weapon for hunting.

-k

I don't know that .375 H&H would be the minimum caliber, more like the safest recommended minimum to allow the hunter to be at a greater distance, well still allowing for a greater velocity at impact.........The Inuit hunt Polar Bear with 243, and though .22lr isn't allowed for deer and up, .223 is, which is nearly the same bullet size, but far different velocity........a safe assumption to make though would be that most lions taken with a firearm have been .303 British for a century+

An arrow from a compound bow can go through most car doors.....at a closer range....still wouldn't be my choice for mule deer, let alone dangerous game.