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Old Wine in New Bottles - Holocaust & Anti-Zionism


jbg

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You think Muslims get a free pass? Try being a Muslim in most any Western country the past 14 years. Canada is dropping bombs on their heads right now and polls say we like it. The thing with Israelis is, similar with Americans, is that we tend to hold them to a higher standard. Nobody's outraged when the Saudi gov tortures people because it's just expected that their a-holes, but Gitmo & Abu Ghraib it's *GASP*.

The "bomb dropping" is pallid compared to the bombing and ground tactics in WW II. There is more attempt to avoid civilians than to nail targets. Israel even gets condemned when a Hamas leader is killed with only his bodyguard being a collateral casualty. Frankly if the civilians were more involved they might help stop the madness.

People also like to stand up for the underdog. You can have a black guy trying to steal a cop's gun but once the cop starts punching the black guy the public is all over the cop and says little about the black guy.

You nailed it. But people should also appreciate that the reason the "underdog" has so much in the way of opportunities is that we do cut slack in our societies. When the alleged underdog engages in combat with police, or for that matter civilians minding their business, that's a bridge too far. And society needs to be more mindful of that.

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And what do you expect, jbg, that Israelis can conduct their own atrocities without penalty because Jews were subject to atrocities?

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You didn't respond to my statement. What I said was that the Arabs started and lost war. The Arabs were and are the ones who kept fighting, aided by the false hopes given by the so-called "international community." When reality strikes and Israel responds, they don't like their medicine.

Yes ... like the genocide of millions of Indigenous Peoples of the Americas ... which almost succeeded.

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Yeah, the whites deliberately left pigs behind after De Soto's visit to Florida, knowing they'd depopulate the continent before most other European arrivals. They precisely knew of the spread of disease vectors that would leave the First Nations as far away as modern-day Massachusetts demoralized and powerless?

The diseases wiped out between 92% and 98% of the First Nations before any warfare.Why does a remnant of 2% - 8% of the population need 100% of the land?

Are you seriously arguing that white Europeans had a policy of wiping out natives where they could be found? Utterly exterminating them? Are you serious?

Next.

Edited by jbg
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I replied again to Big Guy's response but the words needed to be questioned and I thank Michael H for that. I debate the man very strongly but I listen to him as a moderator and want everyone to know I will debate his comments when he is not a moderatr but when he acts for the benefit of the forum I might whine to him off line but I am listening and respect his role as a moderator-its a thankless function:

1. I believe Big Guy's comments trivialize the holocaust;

2. I believe Big Guy's comments incite resentment against Jews for wanting to remember the holocaust;

3. I believe Big Guy's comments stereotype Jews negatively and make an allegation that we all claim the holocaust is more important than other holocaust events.

In regards to 1, when events such as the mass starvation of Ukrainians,the Irish famines, the masscres in Rwanda, Mali, Burundi, Sudan, East Timor, Armenia, the holocaust are presented, none of us in those ethnic groups claim are suffering is more important than someone else's-to suggest that Jws do that is a deliberately placed negative slur of all Jews and in particular Jewish survivors of the holocaust.

Each event is unique and is remembered for its unique impact on its victims and the lasting memories to the people of the targeted group and their ancestors and fellow ethnic members.

We do not compete. In fact I have been to many commemorations and nothing but respect was shown by non Jews and vice versa at our events.We share a common suffering. We learn from each other. We learn how these events happen when people use cognitive processes exactly like what Big Guy's repeat comments are doing-the stereotyping of an entire people and assigning that people supposed beliefs or motives.

That is the lesson we share.

The holocaust is used as a lesson not just for what happened to Jews but as to why it happens over and over again in new forms.

In the case of the holocaust Big Guy is absolutely wrong to say or suggest as he does its just another slaughter. It is not.It is unique in characteristic in how many governments and just how many people had to cooperate and organize to get it done and he clearly does not understand that either out of deliberate ignorance or unintentional ignorance.

In regards to that last point, Moonlight Graham has defended him and I appreciate his efforts but the fact after Graham intervened Big Guy responded and repeated what he did a second time shows what he is saying is not poorly expressed but deliberately expressed.

I find Gaham's intervention appreciated. He wrote at a basic human level which I appreciate. He used sensitivity which I appreciate. He bent over backwords to. That is much appreciated. He also expressed views I am trying to as well.I debate Moon Light Graham with full canons but when he says humane things, I acknowledge his humanity and sensitivity. Fair is far. I debate his views. When he goes the extra mile I am the first to notice.

Because I am from a people who suffered in the holocaust and from the Japanese invasion of Shaghai, I have deep emotional bonds. It taught me to push past the anger.

It taught me to push past and look for the righteous gentiles. It taught me to look to see in the holocaust that no matter how wide spread the cooperation with Nazis were, there were still righteous gentiles who said no and died because of that. It taught me for example some put their Christianity into practice and died for it. So while it could be used as an excuse to write off Christians it also taught me not all Christians were bad, just the exact opposite, willing to love their fellow humans even if it meant their own deaths..

When I am on this forum I blast support for Hamas and the PA and terrorists but I do not attack Palestinians as people or deny their suffering or say they should not have a nation. I was taught to know the difference between a people and its governments or a people and the people within that people who embrace violence.

I was taught about the mass starvation in the Ukraine. It is ironic because in the Ukraine, pro Nazi Ukraines butchered some of my family, many others were starved to death and suffered at the hands of Stalin-to me Stalin and Hitler may have been on opposite sides of the war but there was no difference and what they did was evil and trying to compare it or list it as just another slaughter and to use it as a pretense to lecture all Jews they must get over the holocaust is a personal remark that insults Jews. I do not stereotype all Ukrainians as anti semites. In fact when Ukraine became a nation its leaders reached out to Israel to heal the wounds we both suffered acknowledging directly the role of pro Nazi Ukrainians in the holocaust and by so doing candidly and with great sincerity in Israel, it enabled Israelis to reachback and say to Ukrainians they acknowledge why they hated Stalin and fought him and they acknowledge their suffering and the deliberate attempt to starve them all slowly. Two peoples were able to push through and find a common psychic bond. It was powerful and real, as real as when Lech Walesa reached out from Poland and came to Israel or when Konrad Adenhaur and Willy Brandt did it from Germany, or the Czech President did it and when Sadat did it. Those are real events. Those are real acts of humans reaching out to the Jewish people as a whole and attempting to reconcile. They are respected and cherished as are the righteous gentiles both Muslim and Christian in Israel.

Its why people like me who despise terrorism and Muslim extremism that fuels it, also will not stop until we are able to reach out and make piece with Arabs and Muslims. We know the difference. The extremists on both sides who simply stereotype all the people on the other side-we do not use them to define each other. Believe that because I know soldiers, I know Palestinians, and they have both witnessed horrible things that give them every reason to hate the other side and they do not.

That said, let's end this response in this way.When we talk of the Middle East, some of us on this forum group all the Palestinians, all Israelis, all Muslims, all Zionists, in stereotyped categories and then we assign common negative characteristics to them all. I blast away at that as I know again to Big Guy's comments.

Big Guy's remarks for me show is that he needed twice not once to put down Jews for remembering the holocaust and suggesting we claim its more important than other slaughters.

To me that is the same kind of cognitive process that is used to suggest we Jews think we are "special" or "chosen" another false myth that flows from not understanding the meaning of the covenant between Jews and God that never said Jews were special but simply suggested if we promised to remain a collective when remembering God, that God would remember us back as a collective-it was an allegory for remaining united at a time when Hebrews were faced with existential extinction.

That common collective identity has endured ever since using a shared belief in God to survive. That common collective was for many thousands of years expressed through religious practices and cultural practices-as the persecution continued and escalated and culminated in the holocaust the Jewish collective to protect its existence evolved into a national identity and not just a cultural or ethnic or religious one.

In the case of say Armenians, Irish, Ukrainians, or other targeted groups they too have been targeted for their nationality, religion, ethnic identity, tribal identity- each one sees a group targeted because of stereotyping that group with common negative stereotypes to justify hating those people or resenting them.

The closest analogy to the persecution of Jews are what has happened to the Roma peoples once called Gypsies or for that matter gays and lesbians.

In these three cases people were and are targeted from beliefs that mix religion, ethnicity, culture and moral stereotypes.

However each is unique.

As I stated the clear distinct feature about the holocaust is the amount of planned, thought out, genocide requiring the bringing together of many people of many nationalities including Muslims and Christians.

During the holocaust other righteous Christians and Muslims rejected what there fellow people were supporting, They were the minority. It is those people the holocaust taught me to honour and for their sake as well as the memory of the dead I do not believe the kinds of comments Bug Guy made should go unchallenged,

Edited by Rue
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I hear more about the Jewish holocaust than I do any other holocaust. Maybe because I live in Canada and such, but I don't know for sure. It's almost portrayed as the Jews having a monopoly on this holocaust atrocities for public support of them. I don't see that level of 'public relations' from any other group.

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I hear more about the Jewish holocaust than I do any other holocaust. Maybe because I live in Canada and such, but I don't know for sure. It's almost portrayed as the Jews having a monopoly on this holocaust atrocities for public support of them. I don't see that level of 'public relations' from any other group.

Read above. None of the other slaughters were aimed at the total elimination of a group of people.

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Read above. None of the other slaughters were aimed at the total elimination of a group of people.

That would have happened if they had the war machine and logistics that Germany had at the time. It would have been a matter of resources to make it happen.

The one thing I have learned, is when I stopped being or playing the victim, I started winning at life.

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That would have happened if they had the war machine and logistics that Germany had at the time. It would have been a matter of resources to make it happen.

The one thing I have learned, is when I stopped being or playing the victim, I started winning at life.

Playing is one thing. Reality is another. The Jews are down to a fraction of their former numbers as a result of the Holocaust and low birth rates. The Jews don't need you to feel sorry for them.

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When reality strikes and Israel responds, they don't like their medicine.

When Israel responds disproportionately without regard for civilian lives and kills hundreds of Palestinian children ... nobody but some hard line Israelis and supporters 'likes' it.

It disgusts most of the world, and your callous reference to murdering children as "medicine" ... ?

And you wonder why Israel is losing sympathy and support?

Yeah, the whites deliberately left pigs behind after De Soto's visit to Florida, knowing they'd depopulate the continent before most other European arrivals. They precisely knew of the spread of disease vectors that would leave the First Nations as far away as modern-day Massachusetts demoralized and powerless?

The diseases wiped out between 92% and 98% of the First Nations before any warfare.Why does a remnant of 2% - 8% of the population need 100% of the land?

Are you seriously arguing that white Europeans had a policy of wiping out natives where they could be found? Utterly exterminating them? Are you serious?

Next.

Yes of course it was genocide.

.

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Read above. None of the other slaughters were aimed at the total elimination of a group of people.

So you're playing 'Who had the biggest genocide'?

That would be North America ... and the longest too.

But genocide isn't defined that way:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/genocide.html

.

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The Jews are down to a fraction of their former numbers as a result of the Holocaust and low birth rates. The Jews don't need you to feel sorry for them.

A fraction? Why are you so irresponsible with the comments you make?

Population of Jews before the holocaust was 15.3 million. Population of Jews now is 13.9 million.

Source: link 1, link 2

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Playing is one thing. Reality is another. The Jews are down to a fraction of their former numbers as a result of the Holocaust and low birth rates. The Jews don't need you to feel sorry for them.

I don't feel sorry for them. But then you might see that as antisemitism. Maybe it is not my optics that need an adjustment.

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I find Gaham's intervention appreciated. He wrote at a basic human level which I appreciate. He used sensitivity which I appreciate. He bent over backwords to. That is much appreciated. He also expressed views I am trying to as well.I debate Moon Light Graham with full canons but when he says humane things, I acknowledge his humanity and sensitivity. Fair is far. I debate his views. When he goes the extra mile I am the first to notice.

Well thanks Rue, it's also appreciated.

I criticize Israel consistently, but as I said, only because I place them at a much higher standard than the other countries in the middle-east. But when people routinely criticize someone/something they in the end support, every now and then it's good to acknowledge that support.

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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I criticize Israel consistently, but as I said, only because I place them at a much higher standard than the other countries in the middle-east.

I hope you, jbg, and others also realize that this is similar for a lot of others in the West who criticize Israel.

Unlike other regimes around the globe that seem hopelessly ruthless, a lot of people see countries like Israel and US as countries with the ability to be very powerful forces for good, and when they deviate from that people fiercely criticize them in part to try to get to turn back closer to the ideal that they know they're easily capable of. Like my example of the US and Guantanamo torture, something we'd fully expect from ie: Iran, but far from what we see as the ideal US that was built on ideas of liberty, human rights, and due process.

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I hope you, jbg, and others also realize that this is similar for a lot of others in the West who criticize Israel.

Unlike other regimes around the globe that seem hopelessly ruthless, a lot of people see countries like Israel and US as countries with the ability to be very powerful forces for good, and when they deviate from that people fiercely criticize them in part to try to get to turn back closer to the ideal that they know they're easily capable of. Like my example of the US and Guantanamo torture, something we'd fully expect from ie: Iran, but far from what we see as the ideal US that was built on ideas of liberty, human rights, and due process.

I do appreciate your posts and I should have expressed that earlier.

I went to a Congressman's speech in a parlor setting Monday night. He told the story of a zoo where a lamb was resting comfortably next to the lion. After expressing how touching that was, as prophesied in the Bible (somewhere) he said "very simple, we put a new lamb in there every day." I appreciate that you think more of the U.S. and Israel than the "ruthless" countries. The balance that must be struck is not to be the "lamb of the day" in the lion's cage.

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Stories about lambs and lions like grasshoppers and ants....are pretty silly metaphors because the nature of these animals are infused if not replaced with the human morals of the story tellers and audiences.

Imagine the morals of the stories animals might tell that use humans as the metaphor.

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Nothing to do with morals. Lambs become meat, gloves and boots. If they grow up to become sheep, they produce wool and become mutton and pet food. There is little room for lambs in the world snd the Middle East in particular.

Israel is determined not to become the lamb. We learned that in the last Israeli election.

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Moonlight can we be fair please. The bombs being dropped are not being done to attack Muslims. That is a false statement. They are being aimed at ISIL. Yes innocent Muslims are dying but your comment makes it sound its deliberate targeting.Muslims are not being deliberately targeted by Canada as Jes were by Nazis and that is why your analogy to me is false.

Muslims today are dying because of Muslim extremists and Canada has chosen to intervene to try stop that precisely because it believes the innocent Muslims who might die from their bombings is a necessity to stop even more from dying at the hands of ISIL.

Don't restate this intervention as an indiscriminate attack on Muslims and simply because we want to kill Muslims. In fact Muslims asked us to intervene,

In fact, to remain silent as ISIL and other such extremists kill unrestricted would be no different than not standing up to Hitler.

That is the analogy.

Oh I read the Israel is a neo Nazi restatements on this forum that ignore what Hamas, Hezbollah,Al Quaeda, Iran stand for at this time. I read it, but I think its dead wrong to use the Muslim card to look the other way on terrorists and I believe people use the Muslim card and Palestinian card to defend what terrorists do on this forum. That is where we disagree.

I do not think Muslim terrorists should be able to play the Muslim card.

I only speak for myself. I will say it clearly to you. As a Zionist and supporter of Israel, no I do not believe that is an excuse to use excessive force against Palestinians. Of course not. Easier said than done now because when Israel, the US, Saudi Arabia,Egypt respond to terrorists, when anyone does, innocent people can and do die-its not intentional unlike the killings terrorists inflict and that is the moral difference.

I will say it one last time. I speak for myself.I do not defend unfair settlements on the West Bank. I do not want to see innocent Palestinians suffer. I was taught that as a central principle of Zionism-Zionism not that you would know it being on this forum never taught Arabs or Muslims or anyone else is inferior-this is why Israeli law enshrines in its very essence equal rights to non Jews unlike how in Sharia law nations Jews and non Muslims are defined as inferiors.

Israel has problems because its security issues impact to limit the freedom and rights of all Israelis not just Muslim ones. If you were in Israel that would be vividly apparent-that limitation due to security issues impacts on all.

This forum unfortunately is flooded with threads that draw attention to only one side of the debate and people like me on seeing the balance get their noses out of joint. It does not mean I hate Arabs or Muslims or do not think Palestinians should have a second nation. It means I can not stand terrorists or extremists of ANY kind and do not think ANY of them should get a free card.

I do not like the way the holocaust on this thread is used by some to presume to tell Jews how to behave-that is the very patronizing attitude displayed that for me manifests what causes anti-Semitism-the belief a person is in the position to talk down to another and lecture them.

I would never tell a Ukrainian get over your history or an Irish person or an Armenian that. Think how stupid a thing that is to say.

What next, should Christians get over the death of Christ? Will Big Guy or Ghost tell Christians to get over it and stop portraying Christ as a victim and his followers as commemorating a victim and creating ceremonies commemorating that suffering?

Of course not.

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