Old Wine in New Bottles - Holocaust & Anti-Zionism

[Rue]

Ghost Hacked with due respect you are in no position to presume you can or should lecture anyone on how to deal with what they have experienced in life. The fact you do shows for me a lack of maturity in you. I say that in a non rude way. I am not insulting you I am being blunt. I mean with age comes a realization that none of us are in the position to lecture anyone else. As we age our humility should develop and deepen our souls.

The presumption we know better is the perspective of someone who thinks they know. You do not know what holocaust survivors experienced or anyone else. You may think you do but you don't. How you did not learn yet that each is an individual entitled to respect and dignity and is a living testament to survival in their stories I do not know. Each and every person who has survived a horrible event is a teacher. To presume to tell them to stop teaching and get over the lesson they have to teach is what I encounter with students not yet ready to learn to listen and stop talking.

I have heard your attitude. I have heard it used against vets coming back from war, not just holocaust survivors. I have heard it used against gays, women, children, people of all ethnicities-just shut up-enough already.

Yah I have heard it used to insult vets and say they are war mongers for choosing to wear red poppies and asking us all to.

No Ghost I don't buy it from you or anyone else. This is basic humanity. Our suffering our pain is what teaches us lessons and its ironic because the people putting down the holocaust and saying get over it were brought up with a religion that takes the very symbol of pain and suffering of humanity to build on lessons to make people more civil and yet these same people piss on Jews for doing the same?

You see no irony in that?

I worked hard to build friendships with Ukrainians at a time when there was a lot of far by Jews of them. I have lived to see Ukrainians volunteer to go to Israel, openly admit their wrong doings and in so doing be able to then draw moral support from the same Jews they once shunned because who better to tell them their slaughter makes them who they are today a people united and wanting to be free and who will achieve their unity in their own country.

You think I need to tell an Irish person the story of the famines and what a central role it plays in their identity/

Do you think I need to tell Chinese or South Koreans or Philippinos what that Japanese invasion of their nations means to their identities?

You think I then need to lecture them not to remember?

Such blindness, such absolute and deliberate blindness and exercises in telling people to shut up and know their place to me is the essence of not just anti Semitism but any hateful thinking process.

[marcus]

Israeli law enshrines in its very essence equal rights to non Jews unlike how in Sharia law

Anyone who knows even a little bit about the treatment of non-Jews in and outside of Israel, knows that your comment is pure fantasy.

[GostHacked]

Well, looks like I cannot get a point across without being told I have no place to say anything about anything.

[marcus]

Ghost Hacked with due respect you are in no position to presume you can or should lecture anyone on how to deal with what they have experienced in life.

With all due respect, he can say and lecture anyone he wants.

I remember seeing an episode of The Walking Dead and a group of survivors who tried to justify their actions based on what they experienced in the past. It reminded me of some Jews who try to justify what they do to Palestinians by bringing up the holocaust:

"I want to explain myself a little. You see, we didn't want to hurt you... before. We didn't want to pull you away from your group or scare you. These aren't things we want to do. They're things we got to do. You and your people took away our home. That's fair play. Now we're out here like everybody else trying to survive. And in order to do that, we have to hunt. Didn't start that way, eating people. It evolved into that. We evolved. We had to. And now we've devolved, into hunters...I just hope you understand that nothing happening to you now is personal. Yeah, you put us in this situation and it is almost kind of a cosmic justice for it to be you, but... we would have done this to anybody. We will. But at the end of the day, no matter how much we hate all this ugly business... A man's got to eat. If it makes you feel any better... You taste much better than we thought you would." —Gareth to Bob Stookey while eating his leg

[Rue]

Anyone Marcus is capable of travelling to Israel or finding out from Israeli Arabs. Its not pure fantasy its fact. The standard of living which is the highest for any non Jew in the Middle East is a fact. The access to hospitals, the elected Muslim politicians, the Muslim lawyers working for human rights groups and the free press, all a fact.

There is no fantasy. You come on this forum with a mandate to flood the board with a script to negate Israel's existence. You time your responses always with those of Hudson Jones, and the content and pattern of repetition is there for anyone to see.

I believe you have a mandate to flood this forum and others with the script.

I disagree with it and try point out when it is wrong but to go back and forth with you and pretend Israel does not provide the standard of living or religious or political freedoms it does to Israeli Arabs is the only fantasy and I am not playing.

The attempt to claim JEWS use the holocaust to persecute Palestinians is an interesting choice. You no longer say Zionist as you once did, and justify the smeer saying its not against Jews, now you use the term Jew outright. Putting the word "some" before the word Jew does not disguise the slur, the negative attack on Jews as not being stereotypical.

Your mandate which is to interchange the word Zionist, Jew, Israeli its out in the open for all to see.

Your weak attempt at attacking Jews with your words saying SOME is a couched reference and its exactly the kind of anti-Semitic reference I have and continue to criticize on this forum.

You don't know any Jew. You have never been to Israel. You have never been to the West Bank, or Gaza. You have admitted that in past posts in responses to me.

I know the HJones-Marcus mandate and script. Carry on. been there done that. Carry on,

Edited April 25, 2015 by Rue

[jbg]

Anyone Marcus is capable of travelling to Israel or finding out from Israeli Arabs. Its not pure fantasy its fact. The standard of living which is the highest for any non Jew in the Middle East is a fact. The access to hospitals, the elected Muslim politicians, the Muslim lawyers working for human rights groups and the free press, all a fact.

There is no fantasy. You come on this forum with a mandate to flood the board with a script to negate Israel's existence. You time your responses always with those of Hudson Jones, and the content and pattern of repetition is there for anyone to see.

I believe you have a mandate to flood this forum and others with the script.

I disagree with it and try point out when it is wrong but to go back and forth with you and pretend Israel does not provide the standard of living or religious or political freedoms it does to Israeli Arabs is the only fantasy and I am not playing.

The attempt to claim JEWS use the holocaust to persecute Palestinians is an interesting choice. You no longer say Zionist as you once did, and justify the smeer saying its not against Jews, now you use the term Jew outright. Putting the word "some" before the word Jew does not disguise the slur, the negative attack on Jews as not being stereotypical.

Your mandate which is to interchange the word Zionist, Jew, Israeli its out in the open for all to see.

This blog has interesting material on Arab Israelis (link, excerpts below):

Living in Tel Aviv, I interact with Israeli Arabs everyday whether its on the phone with customer service or in supermarkets, stores, restaurants, at the bank or in the pharmacy. One of my doctors that treated me at Ichilov Hospital during my recent surgery was an Israeli Arab as were some of the nurses. The patient in the next room was an Israeli Arab. I never saw signs at the hospital that said "For Jews Only".

The upscale gym where I am a member is about 10% Israeli Arab. We sweat and work out together. I never saw a sign on the bench press that said "For Jews Only". Riding back to Tel Aviv from Haifa on a Saturday night, the train was a mix of soldiers going back to their bases and Israeli Arab Tel Aviv University students all sitting next to one another side by side. Imagine that in apartheid Israel.

******************

But there are now more Israeli Arabs studying in universities, more Israeli Arabs volunteering to serve in the Israeli Army then anytime before. Israeli Arabs like Muhammad Zoabi, cousin of Knesset Member Hanan Zoabi, who begins his army service very shortly. Proud Israeli Arab Muslim political activist Anett Haskia who sent all of her kids to the Israeli Army. Israel had an Israeli Arab Miss Israel Rana Raslan. This week one of the torch lighters in the upcoming official Yom Ha'atzmaut celebration will be Lucy Aharish -the popular and sometimes controversial Israeli Arab newscaster and talk show host. But we are an apartheid country?

[jacee]

This blog has interesting material on Arab Israelis (link, excerpts below):

Well it's an odd situation really because the apartheid is outside Israel's legal borders where Israel occupies land illegally.

If Israel isn't an apartheid state ... then the one state solution would have been implemented long ago ... wouldn't it?

.

.

Edited April 27, 2015 by jacee

[Rue]

No Jacee because Sharia law is apartheid and Israel's is not so your comment as usual makes no sense.

If your contention is that Israel has created a double standard in how it treats Israelis differently than Palestinians on the West bank, that is credible. Calling it apartheid is not. It creates two standards one where Israelis are treated as citizens of Israel the other where Palestinians are left to be administered by the PA. Under international law Israel has a problem. It either makes all citizens on the West Bank Israeli, or all citizens Palestinian under a Palestinian nationor Israelis and Palestinians both subject to Israeli military law pending a resolution as to whether some or all of the West Bank is annexed to Israel or is allowed to form an independent state.

That does not make it apartheid. The use of the term apartheid is a political one people like you use selectively ignoring the fact that Sharia law nations practice it and Israel was created in direct response to that stating Jews should have equal rights not inferior ones and the only way to assure that was through a state organ protecting its citizens without duplicating to Muslims in Israel how Jews are treated in Sharia law states, which it has done.

On the West Bank the status quo violates international law because of the dual status, not the actual occupation. The land was never part of a nation and Israel has legitimate right to enter it to protect itself from attack by terrorists. However the longer it stays and has stayed the more it weakens the argument the occupation is for defensive purposes and it has to get off the pot so to speak and decide, either annex, or get out.

Israel can not absorb Palestinians from the West Bank into Israel so it must get out. I argue it needs to withdraw to safe borders and end the status quo and call the Palestinian bluff. It it retreated to the security walls the Palestinians could have their nation and if they want the wall down, they would have to renounce their charter for the destruction of Israel first.

I think myself, Netanyahu makes a mistake retaining certain Palestinian lands. It feeds the Palestinian false argument that they are not out to destroy Israel only defend themselves. Its time to call their bluff once and for all.

That is my opinion. I disagree with JBG respectfully in that regard but neither of us believe Israel should expose itself to terror and for you to suggest Israel is engaging in apartheid on the West Bank which at least you have limited your claim to now, is appreciated but I believe inaccurate. It is I get it for Palestinians, for them a forced occupation where they are contained and some would argue those are Bantu lands like in South Africa, the difference is that Israeli settlers on the West Bank are just as much contained and policed the same way by the IDF and s pit at the IDF no differently when their movements are restricted. Both are subject to security control that causes them upset.

For Palestinians the unique difference is the IDF is seen as a defeating army whose presence is a constant humiliation. To non extremist Israelis on the West Bank its a nuisance and protector and to extremists or the Hasidic Jews the IDF is seen as an obscenity.

Throwing out and misappropriating worlds like apartheid to inflame angry rhetoric and ignore the realities of Sharia law in the overall conflict are pointless.

It prevents actual discussion as to the conflict and methods to resolve it by inflaming and seeking to demonize and call certain people racist.

The name calling of either side is juvenile.

[Hudson Jones]

Let's see what the legal experts have to say about Apartheid and Israel:

In 1973 the International Convention on the Suppression and Punishment of the Crime of Apartheid (ICSPCA) was adopted by the United Nations General Assembly. The ICSPCA defines the crime of apartheid as "inhuman acts committed for the purpose of establishing and maintaining domination by one racial group ... over another racial group ... and systematically oppressing them". In 2002 the crime of apartheid was further defined by Article 7 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court as encompassing inhumane acts such as torture, murder, forcible transfer, imprisonment, or persecution of an identifiable group on political, racial, national, ethnic, cultural, religious, or other grounds, "committed in the context of an institutionalized regime of systematic oppression and domination by one racial group over any racial group or groups and committed with the intention of maintaining that regime"

How about John Dugard? What does he think. Let's first look at his credentials:

He is a South African professor of international law. His main academic specializations are in Roman-Dutch law, public international law, jurisprudence, human rights, criminal procedure and international criminal law. He has served on the International Law Commission

Sounds like he may know what he's talking about. His take on Israel and Apartheid?

In a 2007 report, United Nations Special Rapporteur for Palestine John Dugard stated, "elements of the Israeli occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law" and suggested that the "legal consequences of a prolonged occupation with features of colonialism and apartheid" be put to the International Court of Justice.

But he's not Israeli, so he can't comment and just doesn't get it. Right? How about we ask an Israeli about Apartheid laws, such as the Israeli Citizenship law? How about we ask an Israeli judge? How about we ask the Chief Justice?!

Israel's Chief Justice, Aharon Barak, sided with the minority on the bench, declaring: "This violation of rights is directed against Arab citizens of Israel. As a result, therefore, the law is a violation of the right of Arab citizens in Israel to equality."

[Rue]

Nothing in what the minority Israeli Chief Justice stated or the first statement Jones provided states Israel is an apartheid state.

Even the second statement Jones provided does not state Israel is an apartheid state.

Its interesting. In his past posts and threads Jones equated Zionism and a Jewish state as necessarily being racist and apartheid. Now

he quotes someone who suggests ELEMENTS of what Israel does on the West Bank constitute apartheid.

I know the game. I contest the allegation that Israel is racist because it protects Jews and enshrines their collective identity in its

state organ, he changes the subject to narrow it to try focus away from the fact he can't argue Israel being a Jewish state is apartheid while supporting as he does the right of Muslims to have Sharia law states. He can't wiggle out of that one, so he gives himself a way by trying to change the focus of allegation now to apply to West Bank occupation.

Now I am supposed to take the bait and argue back and he goes off on a tangent about how unjust the occupation is focusing away from his previous allegations Israel by being Jewish is apartheid.

Only the tactic aint working, just layed out.

Also someone please explain to me, when did Palestinians and Israelis become races that's news to me. But hey I would love to see the biology that determined one's self identified national collective identity is a race.

Using that idiotic analogy I want all Italians, Irish, Belgians, Czechs, Japanese, Chinese, Germans, Slavs, Armenians, Greeks, all the people of over 150 countries that allow fast tracked citizenship to people descended from nationals in their countries, to know they are all different races now. Ukrainians, Scots,Lithuanians, Estonians, Welsh, Swedes, Latvians, hey you are all races. Mr.Jones says so or maybe not, maybe he thinks its only Jews and Palestinians who are races.

If he does let him explain the difference. Good luck.

Edited April 28, 2015 by Rue

[marcus]

I contest the allegation that Israel is racist because it protects Jews and enshrines their collective identity in its

state organ,

Apparently the Nazis were protecting the Germans as well.

Israel has been using 'defending' to try to justify their brutal actions against the Palestinians for many decades. Can you believe that the increasing of settlements has been justified as a defensive measure? When it comes to Israel, it's all b.s., all the time.

Israel does have an element of Apartheid both inside Israel and to a higher degree in the Occupied Territories. This is practiced inside Israel against non-Jews. They have citizenship and land laws which are discriminatory towards non-Jews inside Israel and there is also institutionalized discriminatory practices, such as unbalanced education funding, home permits, etc.

In the Occupied Territories, anyone who knows even a tad bit about the way the Palestinians are treated and how the illegal Jewish settlements treated, would have no problem recognizing that Israel is an Apartheid State.

Now, cue the deniers:

[bush_cheney2004]

Now, cue the deniers:

No problem....Canada's Indian Act remains the worlds largest "Apartheid" system of conquest and oppression. South Africa learned such techniques from Canada. Israeli settlements squat on a tiny fraction of land and resources illegally expropriated from First Nations.

[marcus]

No problem....Canada's Indian Act remains the worlds largest "Apartheid" system of conquest and oppression. South Africa learned such techniques from Canada. Israeli settlements squat on a tiny fraction of land and resources illegally expropriated from First Nations.

At the moment, there are no special laws for non-aboriginals. There are no cantons where only non-aboriginals can go. Reality makes it difficult for you to show a parallel between how Canada treats Aboriginals today and how Israel treats Palestinians.

[marcus]

This is apartheid:

[marcus]

This is why Zionism is wrong - This is a systematic terrorizing of a group of people:

[bush_cheney2004]

At the moment, there are no special laws for non-aboriginals. There are no cantons where only non-aboriginals can go. Reality makes it difficult for you to show a parallel between how Canada treats Aboriginals today and how Israel treats Palestinians.

The reality is that Canada's "crown" squats on native land, illegally ceded or not ceded at all. Resources are being plundered and the land / water is defiled. "Aboriginals" (...love that racist term...) live in squalor without potable water.

Israel is a tiny speck compared to the size of Canada and the smugness of its "crown".

[jbg]

At the moment, there are no special laws for non-aboriginals. There are no cantons where only non-aboriginals can go. Reality makes it difficult for you to show a parallel between how Canada treats Aboriginals today and how Israel treats Palestinians.

The West Bank is inherently different from pre-1967 Israel + Jerusalem. Jordan, which previously occupied the West Bank, decided to join the 1967 invasion of Israel, despite Israel's urging them to stand down. Jordan lost the war. Rather than reincorporate the West Bank into Jordan, Jordan decided to pass its ability to receive restoration of antebellum borders to the PLO.

The successor Palestinian Authority decided, in its lack of wisdom, to remain in a belligerent posture with Israel. Its people do suffer the consequences. It is sad. But Israel is not going to commit suicide.

[Hudson Jones]

The West Bank is inherently different from pre-1967 Israel + Jerusalem. Jordan, which previously occupied the West Bank, decided to join the 1967 invasion of Israel, despite Israel's urging them to stand down. Jordan lost the war. Rather than reincorporate the West Bank into Jordan, Jordan decided to pass its ability to receive restoration of antebellum borders to the PLO.

The successor Palestinian Authority decided, in its lack of wisdom, to remain in a belligerent posture with Israel. Its people do suffer the consequences. It is sad. But Israel is not going to commit suicide.

You are absolutely right jbg. Israel is not responsible for the way it treats the Palestinians, the settlement increase and the countless human rights violations.

It's ALL their doing!

[jbg]

You are absolutely right jbg. Israel is not responsible for the way it treats the Palestinians, the settlement increase and the countless human rights violations.

It's ALL their doing!

Israel is not interested in your advice on how to commit national suicide.

[Hudson Jones]

Israel is not interested in your advice on how to commit national suicide.

"National suicide". Great buzzword. Zionists love repeating buzzwords to continue to control the narrative and excuse their actions. Let me add some more:

"Throw us into the sea"

"Holocaust"

"Most moral army in the world"

"Self-defense"

"Anti-semite"

"Holocaust"

"Democracy"

Many know the emptiness of your claims. The veil has been lifted and it is only a matter of time before this ugly colonialist project will be forced into submission.

[Rue]

H Jones you now are on this board once again making accusations about all Zionists. . You stereotype all Zionists and this time you in fact throw out buzz words, ascribe them to Zionists then suggest Zionists use them as buzz words when it is in fact you in fact doing so.

What's even more interesting is you again you engage in the very tactic you accuse your mythical Zionist creature of uttering and you can't even complete and refer to actual real Zionists and what they actually said-the best you can do is make lists of words and make cryptic references.

You present no positions-just stereotypes with no complete references.

By the way the term "Many know the emptiness of your claims." -when you translate from Farsi to English the word you wanted was "meaninglessness".

One other thing. The need to refer to yourself as "many", does not make your name calling any more credible. You being "many" doesn't change the "emptiness" or pointlessness of your name calling.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Rue

[Hudson Jones]

By the way the term "Many know the emptiness of your claims." -when you translate from Farsi to English the word you wanted was "meaninglessness".

So you're going to stick with Iranian agent? I've heard Hamas agent, Muslim Brotherhood agent and even ISIS agent.

Zionism is a racist ideology. Just like Wahabism. They both advocate oppression and the violation of human right of those who come in the way of their grand plans. No wonder why the Saudi government and Israel like to snuggle behind closed doors:

Israel and Saudi Arabia's Secret History of Cooperation

Those following the turmoil in the Middle East might be surprised to hear of increasingly friendly relations between Israel and Saudi Arabia, longtime rivals that now face the shared threats posed by Iran’s nuclear program and the Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham.

[Rue]

Mr.Jones your responses are repeats. The reference to agent of Hamas or Isis is of course an empty claim. Your mandate to link Israelto Saudi Arabia now speaks for itself as much as it does when you label its "ideology" cancerous or when the name "Marcus" refers to it as Nazi, etc.

Continue with the name calling. Zionism has to do with defining Jews as a political ideology not race. Your attempt to bait me into a false narrative about Jews and genetics did not work. Neither will this stale dated name calling.

[Hudson Jones]

So I guess this will continue. I provide facts and information and you, Rue, deny them.

I provide the legal meaning of Apartheid and how it perfectly relates to what Israel is doing in the occupied territories and you try to deny it.

I provide reports done by an international law expert from South Africa who says "elements of the Israeli occupation constitute forms of colonialism and of apartheid, which are contrary to international law" and, surprise! Rue tries to deny it.

I provide quotes from the Israeli Chief Justice stating that Israel's citizenship law discriminates against those who are not Jewish, and you try to discredit him and downplay Israel's systematic discrimination.

People like you are a reminder how the Germans acted towards their Nazi government. Always denying, excusing and trying to justify the actions of their government.

[Hudson Jones]

The racism in Israel continues to increase. Not only towards Arabs, but also towards black Jews. The comedy of this whole charade, about Israelis experiencing racism continues.

Old wine: