Old Wine in New Bottles - Holocaust & Anti-Zionism

[jbg]

Tonight, after Holocaust Remembrance Day this past week, I decided to randomly check the New York Times for insights as to when the mass slaughter of Jews became generally known. I can e-mail a copy of the article. I have cut and pasted an excerpt below.

This article was in the February 7, 1943 New York Times, well in advance of the end of the war. And yet some continue to mince words about being against "Zionism" or Prime Minister Netanyahu. Antisemitism continues today, just relabeled.

Excerpt below From In the Valley of Death By Sholem Asch (link for those paywalled):

THE ghettos of Poland have become a dumping ground and a clearing house for all Jewry in the Europe" which is dominated by the Nazis. The Jews of Western Europe. who were used to cultural surroundings and enjoyed the sympathy and understanding of their suffering neighbors are tom away from their homes. In going through the inhuman process of transportation in sealed, unventilated, limed freight cars, which are death traps, to Poland the victims receive the treatment of cattle. Those that survive become as human waste to be thrown into mass-slaughter houses which the Nazis have created for all Jews.

These houses of death consist of gas chambers and blood - poisoning stations

which are established in the outlying countryside, where steam shovels, prepare

community graves for the victims. Regardless of origin, age or sex, all are being killed·. Caravans of death are driven daily from the concentration centers -near the Warsaw Jewish Hospital to the abattoirs in the countryside. The population of the Warsaw ghetto, into which 500,000 Jews were driven, was reduced last September to 120,000 and in October to only 40.000 as proved by the number of food –cards issued. Those remaining are the strongest; they have not been killed yet because they are being used as slave labor. The ghetto of Lublin, which was organized for the concentration of Jews from the outlying-districts, was also populated with Jews from Germany. This ghetto has ceased to exist owing to the liquidation of all inhabitants. Many famous Jewish towns and places. in Poland and in the occupied areas of Soviet Russia, where Jews have lived for many generations. Are now proudly proclaimed by the German press as “Judenrein "

It is useless to try to describe the destruction of 2.000,000 human souls. Every soul has his own destiny and its individual tragedy, and so many murders make so many tragedies.

******************

Never would Hitler have dared to select one people for annihilation had not the road been prepared for him by all kinds and degrees of anti-Semites. A person's constitutional rights are secure only when his social standing in a community is secure. If a people is singled out for hatred, as a group, if the fact of just belonging to this group is considered enough to count as a crime, that people loses, in the eyes its persecutors, the dignity and mysticism of a human being. Then justice is warped and animal instincts are brought forth.

It is a fact that all who have prepared this ground of hatred toward the Jews and other races are exactly as responsible for the bestial slaughter of the Jews in Poland, and others, as Hitler and his clique. Even if today they are frightened by the results of their hatred, they are, as guilty as the Nazis. Hitler only gathers the fruit of their well-planted seed.

[jbg]

24 views and no replies? The relevance to today seems clear. Back then ad hoc decisions were made to consign the Jews to slaughter. Those are being made again in the name of "anti-Zionism."

Second verse, same as the first?

[Bonam]

24 views and no replies? The relevance to today seems clear. Back then ad hoc decisions were made to consign the Jews to slaughter. Those are being made again in the name of "anti-Zionism."

Second verse, same as the first?

The Holocaust was hardly the first time, it was just the worst time... mass slaughter of Jews recurred every couple generations in Europe (especially eastern Europe but in western Europe too to a lesser extent) for over a thousand years. Nothing fundamental has changed, and a couple generations have passed again since the Holocaust.

[marcus]

Hermann Goering, a Nazi at Nuremberg: “The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders,”

All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger.”

Link

Edited April 20, 2015 by marcus

[Big Guy]

Anti-Semitism is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious, or racial group.

It is not illegal but many find it distasteful.

Anti-Islam or Anti Muslim is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against Muslims as a national, ethnic, religious, or racial group.

It is not illegal but many find it distasteful.

Anti-Christian is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious, or racial group.

It is not illegal but many find it distasteful.

Jews do not have a monopoly on Anti -... They just seem to complain more.

Anti-Black is prejudice against ...

[marcus]

Good point about the monopoly of victimhood that some Jews expect when it comes to racism and discrimination. There is also the irony of accepting and justifying the violation of human rights of another group of people despite having had just experienced it themselves.

Anti-Semitism is prejudice against, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious, or racial group.

It is not illegal but

Actually, there are laws in Europe that are criminalize anti-semitism: Link

Edited April 20, 2015 by marcus

[Moonlight Graham]

And yet some continue to mince words about being against "Zionism" or Prime Minister Netanyahu. Antisemitism continues today, just relabeled.

You can be against Zionism and/or Netanyahu without being an antisemite.

What matters is not if but why somebody is against those things. If someone thinks ie: peace is unattainable having a Jewish homeland located Israel but rather support giving an Israel-sized chunk of the Northwest Territories to the Jewish diaspora then that isn't an anti-semitic view. If someone thinks the territory that Israel currently holds rightfully belongs to Palestinians/Arabs, that view in itself is not antisemitic. If they think that because they hate Jews, then they're being antisemetic.

And me thinking Netanyahu is an ass doesn't make me antisemetic. Tired of people crying "antisemite!" whenever a Jew or Israel is criticized. jbg you criticize Obama so I guess that must make you a racist too

[Big Guy]

About 13% of the population of the United States is Black.

The USA has now elected a black President.

About 25% of the population of Israel is non-Jewish.

When are we going to see a non-Jew elected as Prime Minister of Israel?

Edited April 20, 2015 by Big Guy

[bush_cheney2004]

Nope...President Barack Obama is technically "multi-racial" for those who must keep track of race.

[jbg]

About 25% of the population of Israel is non-Jewish.

When are we going to see a non-Jew elected as Prime Minister of Israel?

If Arafat got his way and forced Israel to accept an inundation of non-Jewish immigrants we would have. The election of Obama was intended to be non-racial or post-racial. Too bad Obama's decided to stir the pot rather than heal.

[jacee]

If Arafat got his way and forced Israel to accept an inundation of non-Jewish immigrants we would have. The election of Obama was intended to be non-racial or post-racial. Too bad Obama's decided to stir the pot rather than heal.

You too.

.

[jbg]

If Arafat got his way and forced Israel to accept an inundation of non-Jewish immigrants we would have. The election of Obama was intended to be non-racial or post-racial. Too bad Obama's decided to stir the pot rather than heal.

You too.

I am not a President of the U.S. I don't have the responsibility to all U.S. citizens at all times. Got that?

[On Guard for Thee]

If Arafat got his way and forced Israel to accept an inundation of non-Jewish immigrants we would have. The election of Obama was intended to be non-racial or post-racial. Too bad Obama's decided to stir the pot rather than heal.

Too bad America is so far away from post racial.

[Rue]

Not all discussion that criticizes Israeli foreign policy or Netanyahu is anti semitic.

Not all discussion that criticizes the ideology of Zionism is anti semitic.

Discussion criticizing certain precepts or beliefs in Judaism is not necessarily anti semitic.

There are those when discussing any of the above who may intentionally or unintentionally engage in discriminatory and/or negative stereotypes about Jews and that is when it turns into anti semitic expression.

So for example Big Guy's remark that everyone is discriminated against and his suggesting the only difference is Jews complain louder is a classic example of engaging in hateful comments that negatively stereotype Jews and also is intended to trivialize the holocaust.

Such comments reflect the true agenda of those who utter them including the hatred.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Rue

[WIP]

Trick questi

About 13% of the population of the United States is Black.

The USA has now elected a black President.

About 25% of the population of Israel is non-Jewish.

When are we going to see a non-Jew elected as Prime Minister of Israel?

Trick question! Israel is an apartheid state, so Israeli arabs are going to lose the democratic rights and privileges they have now....let alone gain any new ones!

Worth noting that we just passed the 100th anniversary of the Armenian Genocide of 1915....I was wondering why the story was popping up in the news more often lately....even the Pope getting in a sh** storm with Turkey for daring to mention it. But compare the attention that genocide has with Jewish Holocaust in Europe or more recent genocides like Rwanda - which hardly rank as footnotes in history.

I certainly understand why Jews want to keep memory of their holocaust front and center, BUT I am getting tired of the Israel Lobby warhawks and their backers wiping it in my face if I dare ask a question about their large open air prison camp in Gaza or the slow, creeping and completely illegal, gradual annexation of the territories in the West Bank!

Some of the news I am getting in the last two years revolves around the growing ecological catastrophe in that part of the Middle East. Long and persistent droughts are part of the background that led to unrest in Syria, continued fighting in Iraq, and in Israel/Palestine, the Israelis are taking the largest share of water from the Jordan River and draining down aquifers to levels where Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza will have no choice other than to move and join the rest of the Palestinian ex-patriot communities elsewhere!

So, getting to the thread title and theme: some of us are anti-zionists because a nation cannot represent one and only one distinctive religious or ethnic community and still call itself a democratic nation! This facade of being democratic and zionist has been receding for decades as secular Jews have left....largely for economic reasons, while the more fanatical religious zionists move in to take their place. And this is the main reason why guys like Netanyahooo have been engaging in a sham "peace process" for years that just means endless talking while more Palestinians are moved out/and more Jewish migrants are moved in to territories that they do not have any legal right to in the first place!

.

[jbg]

I certainly understand why Jews want to keep memory of their holocaust front and center, BUT I am getting tired of the Israel Lobby warhawks and their backers wiping it in my face if I dare ask a question about their large open air prison camp in Gaza or the slow, creeping and completely illegal, gradual annexation of the territories in the West Bank!

.

Maybe the Arabs made a mistake when they didn't lay down their arms after 1967 and/or 1973? What do they expect, to start and lose a war and get a mulligan?

[Big Guy]

As to the reference of the Holocaust in the OP, I consider the Holocaust to be an atrocity. But I also consider the Rwanda Genocide an atrocity, the Armenian Genocide an atrocity, the Cambodian Genocide an atrocity the Darfur genocide an atrocity and any other Genocide an atrocity. But besides the Holocaust, the others are seldom brought up to play the victim card.

Enough already, the Jews are not the only people who have been systematically slaughtered for who they were.

Get on with life.

[Moonlight Graham]

Enough already, the Jews are not the only people who have been systematically slaughtered for who they were.

Get on with life.

I think that's an unnecessarily harsh statement. When your people have a long history of being hated and having violence committed against them, including the estimated 6 million killed by Nazi Germans in an effort to wipe out your entire race, and to this day being hated by many people in the world including your neighbours (if you're an Israeli), I don't think it's something you can or should just "get over".

But, I think the crux of your point, which I'll give you benefit of the doubt that you're just not expressing it properly, is that tragic things have occurred to the Jews, but tragic things have and are also occurring to other groups around the world, but yet the Jews get more attention & sympathy given to their cause than just about any other oppressed group's cause worldwide (at least from the West) and that isn't entirely fair since others deserve similar attention.

As for the "Jews just complain louder" part, this is also expressed inappropriately, but I agree with the crux of the point: that is,to their credit, since post-WWII Jews have been as or more successful than just about any other oppressed group worldwide in getting sympathetic attention and most importantly action for their cause (at least in the West). I don't see anything really wrong with that, since ALL social causes are competing for attention/sympathy/donations/support/political funding etc. In fact I admire Jews in general for their amazing tenacity and successful career achievements etc., and this translates also to their ability in getting action on their Jewish/Zionist causes. I don't blame Jews for seeking this, I mostly blame the general public for being ignorant of other causes worth our attention. Part of it is also Western guilt over the holocaust and historical Jewish oppression, and we should feel guilty about that since we (or our forebears) either caused it (ie: some Germans, other Europeans) or turned a blind eye to it.

Edited April 22, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

[Rue]

Big Guy repeats the holocaust trivialization technique. Its stated deliberately.

As for Moonlight Graham he went out of his way to be sensitive which is thanked and appreciated.

The issue is not that Jews think our pain or suffering is more important and no we do not whine or yell louder. Our decision to create a nation and never forget the holocaust is existential necessity.

BigGuy's latest ignorance is expressed in these facts which show the absurdity and ignorance of his statements:

1-the fact that people suffer does not mean any of these people should not remember it;

2-BigGuy has no objective method to in fact measure whether one people's memory of their sufferings is stated louder than other;

3-the Armenian genocide, the mass starvation of Ukrainians, the Irish famines, the massacres in Timor,Rwanda, Sudan,Mali, on and on, each is unique;

4-the fact that people of these victimized groups remember their pain is to teach the world not to let it happen again-there is no contest to scream the loudest and not one of these groups in their commemoration has ever stated their pain as if it was more important-all these groups are united in respecting each other's legacies-we share a common village of pain to strive to make all humans better-we choose never again to be victims but empower ourselves to rise above hatred;

5-no Jew ever suggested as Big Guy argues that we are the only people slaughtered.

Big Guy's subjective stereotyping of Jews and accusing us of claiming we are the only people slaughtered and we should get over the holocaust is hateful-it assigns false allegations that necessarily incite hatred against us for remembering the holocaust and it assumes he is in the position of lecturing holocaust survivors and Jews as to what we should and can remember-that assumption is not just hateful but shows a patronization of all Jews..

You Moonlight Graham I debate with and will until doomsday but you are no Big Guy. You have the right to your criticism of Israel. I may fight it fire and brimstone when I think it raises stereotypes and double standards but I do not think you state anything you do out of hatred but because you are trying to express a progressive view. I disagree and respect at the same time but on this forum its hard to know that.

I am now as clear as I can be in saying the last two statements of Big Guy are deliberate and he singles out Jews with stereotypes that necessaruly incite hatred against Jews because we remember the holocaust.

His hatred and ignorance in these statements I have come to expect. This is carefully worded and repeated and I believe it speaks for itself.

When people are targeted for death because of who they are perceived to be, its based on the same cognitive process Big Guy uses to stereotype Jews as he does.

Its why when we discuss Israel I can not stand comments that stereotype either Palestinians or Israelis. I am very careful to point out it is Hamas, the PA I criticize not Palestinians. I write of Palestinians as humans captured by their situation and suffering. I do not compare their suffering to anyone else because it is their pain.I simply acknowledge it and hope one day they can find peace or the same reason I want Jews in Israel to find peace.

Both people suffer for different reasons and similar reasons and unlike Big Guy what I know is when someone is shot whether they be Ukrainian, Irish, Palestinian, Israeli, they bleed the same way and scream the same way when they find their dead. No one is louder.

The lessons of the holocaust teach me there is hope in the face of hopelessness. The lesson is taken not just by Jews but by all people faced with that. The holocaust memory is an education lesson taught to teach us not to hate not just Jews, but all peoples.

Its the same reason I can learn about the legacy of slaves, or the suffering of Christians in Rome, or the targeted death and persecution of Bahaiis, Zoroastreans, Admidya Muslims, etc.

I am being drawn into an on-going complaint by Big Guy that I should not say the above because he on the one hand feels he can make a blanket allegation as to how all Jews think we carry a false sense of superiority about the holocaust and should get over it, but if he says that and I call those comments hateful, he feels its a personal remark about him and should be deleted.

I criticize his statements unlike he, who criticizes and maligns ALL Jews in his statements and its ironic he feels attacked by me personally when I respond as I do but he sees no contradiction in making comments that personally attack all Jews and resenting them for remembering the holocaust and we have others now joining in this chorus of Jews should not play the victim card while Big Guy is doing the same thing with me, playing the victim card to my responses.

That all needs to be out in the open which is what I am trying to do.Any poster who engages in smeering and assigning negative motives to an entire people and presumes to lecture them should understand that defending those statements as not being hateful by claiming a challenge to them is personal to me is the height of contradiction.

Edited April 24, 2015 by Rue

[jbg]

As to the reference of the Holocaust in the OP, I consider the Holocaust to be an atrocity. But I also consider the Rwanda Genocide an atrocity, the Armenian Genocide an atrocity, the Cambodian Genocide an atrocity the Darfur genocide an atrocity and any other Genocide an atrocity. But besides the Holocaust, the others are seldom brought up to play the victim card.

Enough already, the Jews are not the only people who have been systematically slaughtered for who they were.

Get on with life.

The Holocaust was the only one of those with the aim of relegating their victims to museum exhibit status.

[jbg]

As for the "Jews just complain louder" part, this is also expressed inappropriately, but I agree with the crux of the point: that is,to their credit, since post-WWII Jews have been as or more successful than just about any other oppressed group worldwide in getting sympathetic attention and most importantly action for their cause (at least in the West).

The reason I doubt the sincerely of others inveighing against other atrocities is that Turkey gets a free pass on their slaughter of Armenians.Whenever it's Muslim attackers against Christian or Jewish victims Muslims get a free pass. When the table is turned, as it was in Serbia, the world's sympathy goes out.

[Moonlight Graham]

The reason I doubt the sincerely of others inveighing against other atrocities is that Turkey gets a free pass on their slaughter of Armenians.Whenever it's Muslim attackers against Christian or Jewish victims Muslims get a free pass. When the table is turned, as it was in Serbia, the world's sympathy goes out.

You think Muslims get a free pass? Try being a Muslim in most any Western country the past 14 years. Canada is dropping bombs on their heads right now and polls say we like it.

The thing with Israelis is, similar with Americans, is that we tend to hold them to a higher standard. Nobody's outraged when the Saudi gov tortures people because it's just expected that their a-holes, but Gitmo & Abu Ghraib it's *GASP*. People also like to stand up for the underdog. You can have a black guy trying to steal a cop's gun but once the cop starts punching the black guy the public is all over the cop and says little about the black guy.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Moonlight Graham

[Big Guy]

This idea of trivializing one atrocity by comparing it to another atrocity depends on the subjective evaluation of those with special interests. In some minds the Jews are supposed to be in a separate special group. Not in my mind. All atrocities are equally abhorrent and should be treated equally. It appears to me that there are two posters here who have chosen to identify themselves as Jews to give credence to their views. Good for them.

If there were Engish speaking survivors of the Tutsi genocide or the Armenian genocide of the Cambodian genocide who had access to this web page I suggest that there would be more of a support of my views. These resident Jews seem to feel that other genocides are insignificant and that theirs is the only one worth considering.

I have scanned through the latest Rue rant and I believe that he/she makes my point about these two self appointed representatives now outraged that their particular atrocity is somehow less important than other atrocities.

Hey guess what - you are no more important than other people.

Get on with your life.

Edited April 23, 2015 by Big Guy

[jacee]

Maybe the Arabs made a mistake when they didn't lay down their arms after 1967 and/or 1973? What do they expect, to start and lose a war and get a mulligan?

And what do you expect, jbg, that Israelis can conduct their own atrocities without penalty because Jews were subject to atrocities?

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[Michael Hardner]

The Holocaust was the only one of those with the aim of relegating their victims to museum exhibit status.

Yes, and this is significant. It was a direct attempt to exterminate a people.