Teacher Stress Is Killing My Profession

[socialist]

I spent about 4 hours in my daughter's school yesterday. I'm there volunteering several times a week. Teachers have it VERY easy, it's a plum job. Very few people get paid so much to do so little. Short work day, lots of short work weeks, no stress of any measurable kind, huge pay, lots of holidays. It's a dream job really.

I don't in any way harbour animosity towards those teachers. Good for them, they made a smart career choice that is paying off in spades. My issue is with teachers who complain about how hard done by they are. THOSE teachers need to lose their jobs and work in the real world so that they can see what real stress and tough pay really is.

Here is an example of a government that values public education.

[WestCoastRunner]

Have you ever been employed as a K-12 teacher? Ever had to teach your own class every day like the teachers in the article? Didn't think so, so you don't have much of an idea of what it's like to be an educator either, and you have no experience dealing with the stresses of being a full-time teacher leading a class of your own students every day over the course of a year.

It is not possible to compare teaching in society today. No one here is comparing teaching students in an underprivileged neighbourhood to an upper class neighbourhood.

An underpriviliged school has many challenges that a teacher may face that a teacher in an 'upper middle class' school does not face. A teacher from an underprivileged school sometimes acts as a counsellor, someone who is concerned with sending their students home for the weekend with enough food to get them through the weekend before Monday morning's breakfast. That is plenty of stress!

[Bryan]

Here is an example of a government that values public education.

Not so much:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/manitoba-students-worst-in-canada-in-math-science-and-reading-1.2789907

Manitoba has the worst scores in math, science and reading, according to a national report on education.

The Council of Ministers of Education report is based on standardized tests, conducted in 2013, of Grade 8 students in French and English.

Manitoba is dead last in every category while top marks went to students in Ontario and Alberta.

[Moonlight Graham]

I spent about 4 hours in my daughter's school yesterday. I'm there volunteering several times a week. Teachers have it VERY easy, it's a plum job. Very few people get paid so much to do so little. Short work day, lots of short work weeks, no stress of any measurable kind, huge pay, lots of holidays. It's a dream job really.

I don't in any way harbour animosity towards those teachers. Good for them, they made a smart career choice that is paying off in spades. My issue is with teachers who complain about how hard done by they are. THOSE teachers need to lose their jobs and work in the real world so that they can see what real stress and tough pay really is.

It's a job with excellent rewards, but to say they don't deal with stress is ridiculous.

[Moonbox]

So what would you say is a fair salary for an educator with 5, 6, or 7 years of post secondary education?

The same as someone with similar aptitudes and qualifications would earn working 40 hrs a week for 39 weeks a year (ie about ~80-85% of what they're making now).

People don't want to pay teachers,

Except we do pay teachers already, and far too much at that. The statistics have been provided on numerous occasions to you showing that Canada's teacher's rank in the top 5 best paid in the world. Unfortunately for your argument, Canada's top 5 teacher pay does not correspond to top 5 education and aptitude rankings. We score significantly lower. Germany's teachers are THE best paid in the world, but they also fail.

The facts are very inconvenient for your argument. It's no surprise that you neglected to address them in any other threads. They bury you. Are you going to thread-dodge and go create yet another thread posting your nonsense now? How many more threads are you going to create, hoping over and over to find a more sympathetic audience?

Edited December 19, 2014 by Moonbox

[Michael Hardner]

That's just your opinion.

There is a difference between an opinion and a fact, though. My opinion may be a fact, or just something I think is true and that you think is false.

[Michael Hardner]

Since there's so many teacher's college grads out there with 4-5 years of education and quite a low demand for them, the starting salary for a teacher should be around 40k. Given the market for them (teacher's with little to no experience are extremely easy to replace), that's more than fair.

The "market" is controlled by a guild, though. Fair is more complicated than just paying what people will take. There are lots of unionized or otherwise controlled jobs that can get people that would take less money. Our marketplace has lots of examples of controls that ensure certain parties get more revenue than they would otherwise receive.

[Michael Hardner]

The same as someone with similar aptitudes and qualifications would earn working 40 hrs a week for 39 weeks a year (ie about ~80-85% of what they're making now).

The thing is that they *should* be working 50 hours a week by all accounts. Most do not, as we learned on another thread. I think that there will be a correction soon.

[Moonbox]

The thing is that they *should* be working 50 hours a week by all accounts. Most do not, as we learned on another thread. I think that there will be a correction soon.

Yes, but it will be hit or miss depending which province you're talking about. In Ontario, it's extremely unlikely the Wynne Liberals will do anything even resembling fiscally responsible.

The "market" is controlled by a guild, though. Fair is more complicated than just paying what people will take. There are lots of unionized or otherwise controlled jobs that can get people that would take less money. Our marketplace has lots of examples of controls that ensure certain parties get more revenue than they would otherwise receive.

Michael I'm curious what these unionized/controlled jobs you're speaking of would be. In all of my research, I've never encountered a single example of union/association/guild keeping compensation lower than it would otherwise be on the free market. That's kind of the whole point.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Moonbox

[ironstone]

I spent about 4 hours in my daughter's school yesterday. I'm there volunteering several times a week. Teachers have it VERY easy, it's a plum job. Very few people get paid so much to do so little. Short work day, lots of short work weeks, no stress of any measurable kind, huge pay, lots of holidays. It's a dream job really.

I don't in any way harbour animosity towards those teachers. Good for them, they made a smart career choice that is paying off in spades. My issue is with teachers who complain about how hard done by they are. THOSE teachers need to lose their jobs and work in the real world so that they can see what real stress and tough pay really is.

I completely agree,teachers complain too much these days and quite frankly they have it pretty good compared to most working Canadians.Their pension plan is among the very best in the country.The sick leave is extremely generous as well.They are pretty high up in the food chain if you ask me.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/education/anatomy-of-an-ontario-teachers-paycheque/article6015968/

[overthere]

The "market" is controlled by a guild, though. Fair is more complicated than just paying what people will take. There are lots of unionized or otherwise controlled jobs that can get people that would take less money. Our marketplace has lots of examples of controls that ensure certain parties get more revenue than they would otherwise receive.

In fact, the marketplace for education should be controlled by the employer. The employer simply refuses to exercise that overall control to their own benefit.

Public sector management(civil service) and ownership of the corporation(politicians) have no incentive to control costs. There are no penalties at all for overpaying anybody in the public sector, including teachers. They do have a personal incentive to keep down strife, and that incentive is votes by annoyed parents.

The govts have ceded their control to their own employees, to sometimes ludicrous results. Examples of this in my province are that the union is effectively in charge of teacher discipline and teacher licensing.

Teacher compensation should be subject to supply and demand just as it is in any other field of employment. But out 'leaders' have taken the easy way out for decades, and the usual formulas do not apply. I don't blame teachers unions for stitching up their job security and compensation so neatly- that is the role of any union. It would take some courageous politicians to change this vicious little paradigm, and those are in very short supply.

[Argus]

I've heard that stress on teachers can often come from increased class sizes. Having to supervise more people often times means more stress in any job. Maybe the answer is more teachers, lower wages, smaller classes. Statistically students learn better in smaller class environments as well.

Wonder how they'd cope with having to teach kids in seven different grades in the same classroom like teachers used to do.

[The_Squid]

People don't want to pay teachers, but don't bat an eye when this nonsense happens.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/retired-north-vancouver-superintendent-john-lewis-re-hired-accused-of-double-dipping-1.2878710

Did you just call them "teachers"??????

[Michael Hardner]

In all of my research, I've never encountered a single example of union/association/guild keeping compensation lower than it would otherwise be on the free market. That's kind of the whole point.

Yes, that's right. It's not a free market. We're saying the same thing.

[overthere]

Yes, that's right. It's not a free market. We're saying the same thing.

It is a free market, but one side has voluntarily ceded effective control of the market to the other.

[Moonbox]

Yes, that's right. It's not a free market. We're saying the same thing.

Yes I see that now I misread sorry.

It is a free market, but one side has voluntarily ceded effective control of the market to the other.

Right. I think we're all on the same page.

[Boges]

Stress is always relative right?

I could say working a 10 hour day would be stressful when I'm used to working 8 or 9 hour days. How a small businessman who works 80 hours a week?

When people who can't just call in and claim they're sick, with no questions asked, and when they aren't sick they can keep those days and horde them for retirement AND when they get almost 3 months off a year then you'd imagine their ability to deal with some sort of hardship they'd be less able to cope.

[Michael Hardner]

In fact, the marketplace for education should be controlled by the employer. The employer simply refuses to exercise that overall control to their own benefit.

How do you mean ?

Public sector management(civil service) and ownership of the corporation(politicians) have no incentive to control costs.

Bigger question. Out of the scope of this convo, IMO.

[Big Guy]

I believe that a job becomes stressful if you are having difficulties and/or not gaining any satisfaction from it.

A teaching job, like most people related jobs, requires a number of skills and personality traits not common to all. You have to be comfortable leading a large group, need confidence in your ability, must be fairly intelligent and must like to work with children. Yes, there are a number of people who do not have these traits and therefor have difficult handling their jobs.

You have to be prepared to daily be challenged by large groups (from 20-40 students) and to have your authority and control challenged hourly. You also have the responsibility for the safety of all of the students under your care. Meanwhile, you must figure out what motivational and/or class management techniques work for each group. You presentation props must also adapt to the subject matter and the class.

As to difficulty, it can be very difficult if you do not have the personality or the thick skin of dealing with a hundred different hormonal adolescents a day. If you do, then it can be an enjoyable experience.

There are people who should not be teachers or doctors or lawyers or clergy etc. Problems occur when you try to stay in a career to which you are not suited. It is a well paid profession with good holidays and lots of opportunities to expand your interests and/or improve your skills. There is unlimited opportunity to innovate or to participate in the total school environment of your students. The investment company which manipulates the Teachers pension plan investments has taken a worth of $500 million (when I first joined ) to about $130 billion to-day.

As to the work day - it can vary from about 20 hrs a week to 80 hrs a week depending on how many, what, where, how you are teaching. If you consider that a surgeon works 10 hrs a week, the time he/she is in the operating theater or a lawyer works 10 hrs a week, the time he/she spends in the courtroom then a typical teacher works about 20 hrs a week.

I am not defending the profession or running down any other profession. I really do not care what most people think the job is all about because I had spent 35 years listening to politicians, bureaucrats, parents and anonymous posters telling me what teaching should be - each opinion very different from the other.

There are a number in the profession who should not be there and are protected by the union but they usually do not last very long because incompetence is very difficult to hide from students, parents and administration.

There are also a few (too many) that are in it for the ride, do the minimal and are part of the daily 3:15 p.m. great race out of the parking lot.

I would encourage any young, qualified, intelligent, hard working, personable people to try the profession. If it is a good fit you have many, many years of satisfaction, enjoyment and security ahead of you.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Big Guy

[socialist]

Wonder how they'd cope with having to teach kids in seven different grades in the same classroom like teachers used to do.

Spoken like a person still stuck in the 40s. Newsflash: THINGS HAVE CHANGED

[PrimeNumber]

Wonder how they'd cope with having to teach kids in seven different grades in the same classroom like teachers used to do.

Rural teachers? Seven different grades in one classroom that was still probably a smaller class size.

I remember in grade 8 when the Sask government tried an experiment in my elementary school. They split the class up into two separate grade 8 classes, males and females. We had about 56 kids in my grade 8 class. Split up it was 33 males and 23 females.

We made 2 teachers quit by christmas break, one in the middle of a class lesson. Ahhh the good old days.

There is no way you could pay me to be a teacher these days. Anyone saying they don't have stress should hang out with 33 kids for 8 hours a day and report back on your findings if you made it through the day without breaking any of the same rules and regulations a teacher must follow.

[socialist]

Rural teachers? Seven different grades in one classroom that was still probably a smaller class size.

I remember in grade 8 when the Sask government tried an experiment in my elementary school. They split the class up into two separate grade 8 classes, males and females. We had about 56 kids in my grade 8 class. Split up it was 33 males and 23 females.

We made 2 teachers quit by christmas break, one in the middle of a class lesson. Ahhh the good old days.

There is no way you could pay me to be a teacher these days. Anyone saying they don't have stress should hang out with 33 kids for 8 hours a day and report back on your findings if you made it through the day without breaking any of the same rules and regulations a teacher must follow.

Your comment is spot on. People have no clue what educators have to put up with. Walk around the city and observe kids. We have to take them all and do our best to teach them.

Guys like moonbox on PCT have no clue, and their simplistic views are laughable.

[PrimeNumber]

Your comment is spot on. People have no clue what educators have to put up with. Walk around the city and observe kids. We have to take them all and do our best to teach them.

Guys like moonbox on PCT have no clue, and their simplistic views are laughable.

I do understand the stress teachers can face but making class sizes smaller, hiring more teachers and lowering the pay is the way to go I think. Don't even get me started on the actual execution of our education system.

[socialist]

I do understand the stress teachers can face but making class sizes smaller, hiring more teachers and lowering the pay is the way to go I think. Don't even get me started on the actual execution of our education system.

You won't attract the brightest if you decrease pay

Also, what concerns you about the execution of our education system?

Edited December 20, 2014 by socialist

[Big Guy]

I think the answer is a better screening of those wishing to enter the profession. The province usually decides on the number of candidates that it allows into Teachers College. I know that is true in Ontario. Many years ago the criteria was strictly academic performance so only the top 2 or 3 % of a high school graduating class would qualify. For a while common sense took over and candidates were chosen through an interview process as long as they had first class honors.

Then the politics got involved and gender and minority quotas skewed the process. We started to give teaching credentials to people who could not speak English but filled a political quota.

There remains a glut of good young people who want to enter the profession. If we can ever get to prioritize ability, merit and experience with children on the front end of entering Teachers College then we would not need teacher evaluations on the back end.

Class size does matter but for most subjects, any class over 30 would be approached the same as a class of 300. They become anonymous shadows in cluttered classrooms noticed only if there is a vacant chair in the room.