Does Israel have a right to exist?

[Big Guy]

I still believe that Israel is becoming a rogue ally of the West and is prepared to follow a self serving foreign policy at the cost of more chaos in the Middle East. Israel will do what it feels if good for Israel - good for them. It is time to cut the financial and military chord and allow Israel to accept the consequences of not following the advice and direction of the West.

[bush_cheney2004]

Many believe that the USA is a "rogue ally" of Canada. So cut the economic and military "chord".....with America.

[PrimeNumber]

Many believe that the USA is a "rogue ally" of Canada. So cut the economic and military "chord".....with America.

Who has ever said that? If anything Canada is the rogue ally, when we refused to support America on it's ridiculous military excursions.

[bush_cheney2004]

If that's the case, should the U.S. cut all economic and military ties with Canada ? Nope...and any similar suggestion for "rogue ally" Israel is just as silly.

[PrimeNumber]

Well we share the worlds ongest land border so it would be in both of our countries best interests to try and get along. Israel has nothing to offer either of our countries.

[overthere]

I still believe that Israel is becoming a rogue ally of the West and is prepared to follow a self serving foreign policy at the cost of more chaos in the Middle East. Israel will do what it feels if good for Israel - good for them. It is time to cut the financial and military chord and allow Israel to accept the consequences of not following the advice and direction of the West.

All foreign policy is self serving, for every country. It is not necessary for our allies to do what they are told, and who are we to order about a sovereign state?. The heart of any alliance is that each party will abide by their treaties with their allies. Israel is our friend, officially and for decades. It is not clear why you would encourage or wish for massive war or a nuclear exchange in the region.

Well we share the worlds ongest land border so it would be in both of our countries best interests to try and get along. Israel has nothing to offer either of our countries.

It would be in the best interest of the USA to invade Canada and take control of the expanded borders and resources. The length of our border is a bizzarely irrelevant.

It is interesting to see you condemn to slaughter the one and only functioning democracy in the Middle East. Anybody else you'd like to see exterminated?

[eyeball]

It is interesting to see you condemn to slaughter the one and only functioning democracy in the Middle East.

How do you feel about our side having overthrown Mossadegh and slaughtering democracy in the process?

I think it's fair to say that singularly and spectacularly stupid mistake was the Mother of all root causes behind most if not all of the conflict that's surrounded and spilled out of the ME region ever since.

[GostHacked]

Has Syria ever rescinded its declaration of war against Israel?

Oh, well then bomb away. so I guess I should not cry if Syria drops a few bombs on Israel.

[PrimeNumber]

It would be in the best interest of the USA to invade Canada and take control of the expanded borders and resources. The length of our border is a bizzarely irrelevant.

It is interesting to see you condemn to slaughter the one and only functioning democracy in the Middle East. Anybody else you'd like to see exterminated?

If it's in the best interests of the USA to invade Canada why have they not done so? One could argue that it is in the USA's best interest not to invade Canada considering how many countries would be against such an invasion. It would most certainly be a USA vs the World scenario. The length of the border is entirely relevant.

I have not condemned anyone to slaughter, I simply refuse to support their internationally illegal military campaigns. whats the point of having international law if we allow Israel to break it? What happens after Israel no longer has our support is up to Israel. Peace is obtainable if they are willing to have it.

[jbg]

Well we share the worlds longest (fixed typo) land border so it would be in both of our countries best interests to try and get along. Israel has nothing to offer either of our countries.

You must have a great sense of humor.

Israel serves as a giant forward base, established without the need of a Normandy-style amphibious invasion. Do you really think the West can rely upon any of its Saudi or other Arab basese in the wake of the Saudi-tolerated Khobar Towers attack?

Edited December 27, 2014 by jbg

[jbg]

Oh, well then bomb away. so I guess I should not cry if Syria drops a few bombs on Israel.

They allowed plenty of terrorists to infiltrate though both Syria proper and more often through their captive state, Lebanon.

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel will remain an important ally of the United States for several reasons. The U.S. does not have to choose between Canada or Israel, as it has more international partnerships, agreements, and obligations with other nations than does Canada. During the Iraq War, many Canadians were surprised to learn that Canada is a close and important U.S. ally, but it is not #1 (and never has been).

[Michael Hardner]

During the Iraq War, many Canadians were surprised to learn that Canada is a close and important U.S. ally, but it is not #1 (and never has been).

Maybe not. Who IS #1 ? Also, these things change. It's like asking who my favourite sibling is now. Canada, Britain, Australia, the U.S. and New Zealand are almost inseparable allies and there's no reason to think that will change in the near future.

[Argus]

There is symbolism and then there is action.

In a democratic country everyone is treated equally and has equal rights. There should be an absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges.

You have a mistaken notion of what democracy is. It is a means for deciding who is in charge, and nothing more. Insofar as a true democracy requires freedom of information, speech, and the press in order for the population to make reasonably intelligent choices, those are also requirements of a democracy. This is one of the reasons why, for example, Russia and Turkey are not real democracies. But there are no requirements for being free of class distinctions, or of freedom of religion, or that such a democratic state subscribe to your opinion as to what constitutes equality. If there were, India would not be a democracy either.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Argus

[jacee]

During the Iraq War, many Canadians were surprised to learn that Canada is a close and important U.S. ally, but it is not #1 (and never has been).

On the contrary, I think the Bush US was surprised that Canada didn't go along with the US in invading Iraq and about Ballistic Missile Defence. Canadians have no delusions about being an important military ally of the US because we don't see ourselves as a military power, nor do we wish to be, nor do we blindly follow US lead.

... Oh ... except for Harper and a few cronies, all of whom would likely be hiding in the closet in any real trouble.

.

[bush_cheney2004]

Maybe not. Who IS #1 ? Also, these things change. It's like asking who my favourite sibling is now. Canada, Britain, Australia, the U.S. and New Zealand are almost inseparable allies and there's no reason to think that will change in the near future.

Some are more "inseparable" than others, as the U.K. remains America's most important ally. Domestic politics in those other nations have more impact on military and security relationship(s) with the U.S.

"Never be separated from the Americans." - Winston Churchill (speaking in 1955 on trade)

[jbg]

Maybe not. Who IS #1 ? Also, these things change. It's like asking who my favourite sibling is now. Canada, Britain, Australia, the U.S. and New Zealand are almost inseparable allies and there's no reason to think that will change in the near future.

You're missing one, Israel. Otherwise I agree.

[Rue]

Well let\s recap;

1-Guyser claims me met an Israeli who thinks Israel is pathetic in what it does;

2-Big Guy is surprised Israel won't do what he thinks the West tells it;

3-Prime and Marcus think Israel is a terrorist state;

4-Ghost doesn't think Israel should defend itself with air strikes in Syria.

Well then.

Translation;

1-woops there it is the I know an Israeli who hates Israel card-almost as good as the I know a Jew who hates Israel card;

2-damn you take some Jews, give them a state, and presto they just don't know their place (something tells me in Big Guy's thesis nothing has changed since before they had a state-damn pushy Jews, who the hell do they think they are er I meant Israelis, should have stayed in Egypt;

3-get out, Israel is a violent murderous state-it has nothing better to do than kill Palestinians for no reason;

4-when someone tries to kill you sit there and know your place and die.

Refreshing. Never head those arguments before.

[guyser]

Well let\s recap;

1-Guyser claims me met an Israeli who thinks Israel is pathetic in what it does;

Obviously reading comprehension....no wait, its not that, its your pathetic attempts (ad naseum) to inject some other meaning or attempt to re-frame what people say so that you can slay them.

Not to mention how stupid it looks when you do, but we are used to it.

But for the record, you did ask...

You even know an Israeli? You ever met one? You ever met a person who has had to serve in the IDF and defend the country and why they did it?

So I answered you.

And by the way, I didnt say he hates Israel. He quite likes it, its the idiots in the IDF he had to work with who were bent on increasing tensions. Sounds mightily like some other thin skinned poster here.....hmmmm.....

Well then.

Translation;

1-woops there it is the I know an Israeli who hates Israel card-almost as good as the I know a Jew who hates Israel card;

I shouldnt have asked a question that I didnt know the answer to and now I have been embarassed

Pathetic, and thin skinned. Do keep it up, its fun to watch. Edited December 30, 2014 by Guyser2

[BC_chick]

I'm not talking about what happened in 1947 or in 82 BC.

I mean right now.

Not interested in but but but but.....

Yes or no.

We can poll the Palestinian state question later

Actually, the 'Palestinian question' does go hand in hand. If you don't define your borders, you can't ask whether or not your country has a right to exist.

What exactly is the state of Israel? That's the million dollar question.

[Rue]

Actually using your very reasoning process BC and I agree the Palestinian question goes hand in hand, since the Palestinian authority refuses to acknowledge its borders as being outside of Israel pre 1967, it doesn't have the right to exist until it does.

The question is what exactly is this state of Palestine not Israel. Israel does exist as a state. It is exactly that a sovereign state.

Palestine however is not. It is a reference to a potential state but the specific problem is Mr.Abbas has made clear his notion of Palestine includes what is now Israel and Jordan. It also is a vision that does not ever see a Jewish state existing just a Muslim state where Israel is. That is not my position it is his and he has repeated it many times. His reference to never recognizing a Jewish state is explicit so are his speeches to his Palestinian and Arab audiences where he says Israel must be taken back and he applauded his fellow Palestinian Authority members calling for war to get it back. The PA constitution calls for a MUSLIM state in Israel. That is precisely why they want any Muslim who claims he is Palestinian without any test, just their own self selection, the right to "return" to Israel even though they were never born there.

As for Hamas they have the exact same belief only in their vision the way to achieve it is with terror and violence while Abbas won\t admit this to his Western audience but will call for it with his Arab audiences.

For Hamas like the PA it believes the Muslimification of Israel is the only solution but is also just the first step in a larger war to turn the world into a one Muslim state where Jews who do not convert to Islam are murdered.

That is precisely what its constitution says.

The obstacle to peace of course in your opinion is simply Israel. I know the mantra, if Israel didn't expand onto the West Bank there would be no conflict. That is not true. Those settlements exasperate and complicate matters yes indeed but its an absolute myth to portray them as the only obstacle to peace.

Terrorism and the refusal to recognize a Jewish state, remain the primary obstacles. With no terrorists and an explicit recognition of Israel, an Israeli Premier would then have the mandate to pull out settlers from the West Bank as they did Gaza.

They won't make that mistake again. When they pulled out of Gaza they were attacked. When they pulled out of Lebanon they were attacked. Arafat went public and said he negotiated with Israel in bad faith and they should have known he was bluffing and all along the only thing he would accept was a Muslim Palestinian state in what is now Israel.

If you think Israel will make make itself disappear it aint gonna happen.

Edited December 31, 2014 by Rue

[marcus]

You have a mistaken notion of what democracy is. It is a means for deciding who is in charge, and nothing more.

Democracy has a meaning and you need to know what it is:

democracy

/dɪˈmɒkrəsɪ/

noun (pl) -cies

1.

government by the people or their elected representatives

2.

a political or social unit governed ultimately by all its members

3.

the practice or spirit of social equality

4.

a social condition of classlessness and equality

5.

the common people, esp as a political force

[jbg]

Democracy has a meaning and you need to know what it is:

democracy

/dɪˈmɒkrəsɪ/

noun (pl) -cies

1.

government by the people or their elected representatives

2.

a political or social unit governed ultimately by all its members

3.

the practice or spirit of social equality

4.

a social condition of classlessness and equality

5.

the common people, esp as a political force

The reason that no country has pure democracy is that it can and will degenerate into a tyranny of the majority, with minorities having no real rights. The American revolutionaries were acutely aware of this.

[dre]

Terrorism and the refusal to recognize a Jewish state, remain the primary obstacles. With no terrorists and an explicit recognition of Israel, an Israeli Premier would then have the mandate to pull out settlers from the West Bank as they did Gaza.

No GAZA is a very different situation. Israel pulled out there because the territory had very little value to them.

The West Bank on the other hand is basically a massive network of critical infrastructure... a vast network of wells, pipelines, and pumping stations that millions of Israelis rely on for agriculture and drinking water.

You're assuming that the occupation is primarily a security operation but it isn't. Israeli settlements in the west bank are their to secure access to resources there. Resources vital to Israel. And no recognition of Israel by Palestinians will change that reality. No matter WHAT the Palestinians do, Israel will continue to expand its settlements there and tighten its grip on the west bank. They have absolutely no intention of ever leaving, or of allowing the formation of an Arab state there. Its simply not in the cards and there's nothing Palestinians can do to change that.

[GostHacked]

The reason that no country has pure democracy is that it can and will degenerate into a tyranny of the majority, with minorities having no real rights. The American revolutionaries were acutely aware of this.

Current Americans have no idea that it is a Republic and not a democracy.