Does Israel have a right to exist?

[Bonam]

Of course...as no nation has the "right to exist" in the purest sense, including Israel. I cannot recall this existential qualification ever being proposed except when discussing Israel.

That is true. Clearly, there is no inherent "right to exist" for nations. Nations exist so long as the people comprising them want them to exist, and they are not destroyed by external factors.

But within the debate regarding Israel, acknowledging the "right to exist" basically equates to agreeing to not invade it and try to wipe it off the map, agreeing to the idea that it is not inherently wrong for Israel to exist, etc. Some on this forum think that Israel should not exist, and propose that Israeli Jews be relocated to Europe (even though most of them are not from there). It is within that context that Israel's "right to exist" is discussed.

[bush_cheney2004]

...But within the debate regarding Israel, acknowledging the "right to exist" basically equates to agreeing to not invade it and try to wipe it off the map, agreeing to the idea that it is not inherently wrong for Israel to exist, etc. Some on this forum think that Israel should not exist, and propose that Israeli Jews be relocated to Europe (even though most of them are not from there). It is within that context that Israel's "right to exist" is discussed.

Sure...I get all that as it has been part of the "Dirt Farm Conflict" narrative since 1948. But it is a false narrative, because Israel's existence does not depend on the "right to exist" from enemies, neutrals, or allies. It is armed to the teeth because attacks and existential threats are the norm, regardless of internet web site polls that such a right "exists". What other nation is subjected to such a silly notion ?

[Bryan]

But within the debate regarding Israel, acknowledging the "right to exist" basically equates to agreeing to not invade it and try to wipe it off the map, agreeing to the idea that it is not inherently wrong for Israel to exist, etc. Some on this forum think that Israel should not exist, and propose that Israeli Jews be relocated to Europe (even though most of them are not from there). It is within that context that Israel's "right to exist" is discussed.

The poll didn't ask "should Israel exist?" It didn't ask if Israel's existence is right or wrong, nor did it ask if Israeli Jews should be relocated. It merely asked if it had a right to exist. Those are very different questions.

[Peter F]

I voted no for the reasons BC2004 has very cogently stated. No nation exists by the vague notion of 'Right'.

[guyser]

IIf the entirety of Vancouver Island wishes to be a nation and all of mainland BC wishes they were dead where they stand, do the people of Vancouver Island still have the right to be a nation?

If all of Quebec wishes to secede from Canada does it matter what anyone living in Ontario thinks?

No.

No.

But neither have a right to be a nation. Period.

[overthere]

I think you missed the intent of my answers...

I'll refer back to one of my original points.

If the people IN, key word here being IN, the region wish to be a nation do they have the right to be a nation?

It doesn't matter what everyone around them thinks.

If the entirety of Vancouver Island wishes to be a nation and all of mainland BC wishes they were dead where they stand, do the people of Vancouver Island still have the right to be a nation?

If all of Quebec wishes to secede from Canada does it matter what anyone living in Ontario thinks?

By your logic, you seem to think so. My answer remains.

Both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist, because both have a majority in their respective regions that wish to be sovereign.

Furthermore and correct me if I'm wrong but don't the majority of people within both regions wish to broker a two-state deal? If I'm correct then this issue is no longer an issue of sovereignty, It's an issue of absolutely meaningless and pointless deep-seated religious hatred by all parties involved.

Well, notwithsatnding the gibberish about islands and provinces, I'm putting you down as a 'yes'.

[overthere]

The poll didn't ask "should Israel exist?" It didn't ask if Israel's existence is right or wrong, nor did it ask if Israeli Jews should be relocated. It merely asked if it had a right to exist. Those are very different questions.

Thank you.

I think the question is valid, if only because the answer will determine if there is ever to be any chance for peace in the region.

[dre]

The thread avoids the actual issue we need to ask and that is does Israel have the right to exist as a JEWISH state. The dettractors of Israel do not dispute it should exist, they dispute its right to be JEWISH.

No they really dont. Im fine with Israel being as Jewish as it wants, I just dont recognize state religions period. The problem isnt that anyone cares what Israel does in terms of making Judaism part of their civil society, laws, etc. Its this new demand that others outside Israel announce their recognition of Israels state religion. Its pointless, stupid, unnecessary, and as I said before its a deliberate attempt to avoid a negotiated peace... Just like all the new settlement constuction. The entire reason they have place this new demand on Abbas is because they know it would undermine him, and damage him politically if he did it.

[Rue]

Dre's response makes no sense. It fails to address the fact that Abbas and Hamas have repeatedely stated they will only recognize Israel as a MUSLIM state.

They are not asking it be a non religious state. His remark would only make sense if they were not demanding Israel be a MUSLIM state.

Dre may not want Israel to be a JEWISH state but Hamas and the PA and Intidada Palestinian, Jihad Palestinian, the Palestinian Front for the Liberation of Palestine, ISIL, al Quaeda, Hezbollah, Iran, Al Asqa Martyr Brigade, Fatah, all demand Israel be a MUSLIM state.

Therefore his response is nonsensical because for him to argue he is not for a religious state so its an obstacle to peace while ignoring their demand it be a religious state and that not being an obstacle to peace makes zero sense, zero.

Its a double standard. Dre will criticize Israel for arguing its Jewish but not criticize those who do not agree with Israel being Jewish and demanding it be Muslim. Either they are all wrong or no one is wrong.

Dre's position is inconsistent. If he were to call for the end of all religious states including all Sharia law states instead of only singling out Israel as a religious state, he might have more credibility.

Never has Dre come on this board and denounced any state for being religious EXCEPT Israel.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Rue

[Rue]

Time and time again when Israel is criticized for stating it is a JEWISH state the same people who argue it should not be a JEWISH state do not mention nor will they discuss the charter of Hamas. In fact in one response Blubber laughed at me when I suggested Hamas seeks the destruction of Israel. We have Hudson Jones stating Zionism is a cancer that needs to be wiped out but not a peep about the Hama charter in such discussions. Why?

How do the same people who argue Israel has no right to be Jewish not hold Hamas, Abbas, the Sharia law nations, England, the Vatican, to the same standard? Why not?

Here are the specific words from the Charter of Hamas that make it clear it is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood the same organization Obama openly supports with Erdogan and allied with to create ISIL before it turned on him.

Here are the words of the charter that make specific reference to Hamas being a MUSLIM organization at war with JEWS not just the Jews of Israel and justifying its war making references to the Koran, Allah and raising anti-semitic stereotypes of ALL Jews accusing them of being part of a world wide conspiracy;

The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)
Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111 Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.
Introduction
This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails.
Part I - Knowing the Movement
Article One: The Ideological Aspects
The Islamic Resistance Movement draws its guidelines from Islam; derives from it its thinking, interpretations and views about existence, life and humanity; refers back to it for its conduct; and is inspired by it in whatever step it takes.
Article Two: The Link between Hamas and the Association of Muslim Brothers
The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a world organization, the largest Islamic Movement in the modern era.

Article Three: Structure and Essence
The basic structure of the Islamic Resistance Movement consists of Muslims who are devoted to Allah and worship Him verily [as it is written]:

Article Four
The Movement welcomes all Muslims who share its beliefs and thinking, commit themselves to its course of action, keep its secrets and aspire to join its ranks in order to carry out their duty. Allah will reward them.

Article Five: Dimensions of Time and Space of the Hamas
As the Movement adopts Islam as its way of life, its time dimension extends back as far as the birth of the Islamic Message and of the Righteous Ancestor. Its ultimate goal is Islam, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution. Its special dimension extends wherever on earth there are Muslims, who adopt Islam as their way of life; thus, it penetrates to the deepest reaches of the land and to the highest spheres of Heavens.

Article Six: Peculiarity and Independence
The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinct Palestinian Movement which owes its loyalty to Allah, derives from Islam its way of life and strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.

Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas
By virtue of the distribution of Muslims, who pursue the cause of the Hamas, all over the globe, and strive for its victory, for the reinforcement of its positions and for the encouragement of its Jihad, the Movement is a universal one.
…Whoever closes his eyes from seeing the facts, whether intentionally or not, will wake up to find himself overtaken by events, and will find no excuses to justify his position.

….Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam and his brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936; it further relates to another link of the Palestinian Jihad and the Jihad and efforts of the Muslim Brothers during the 1948 War, and to the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brothers in 1968 and thereafter. But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).

Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas
Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief.

Part III - Strategies and Methods
Article Eleven: The Strategy of Hamas: Palestine is an Islamic Waqf
The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine has been an Islamic Waqf throughout the generations and until the Day of Resurrection, no one can renounce it or part of it, or abandon it or part of it. No Arab country nor the aggregate of all Arab countries, and no Arab King or President nor all of them in the aggregate, have that right, nor has that right any organization or the aggregate of all organizations, be they Palestinian or Arab, because Palestine is an Islamic Waqf throughout all generations and to the Day of Resurrection. Who can presume to speak for all Islamic Generations to the Day of Resurrection? This is the status [of the land] in Islamic Shari’a, and it is similar to all lands conquered by Islam by force, and made thereby Waqf lands upon their conquest, for all generations of Muslims until the Day of Resurrection.

Article Twelve: Hamas in Palestine, Its Views on Homeland and Nationalism
Hamas regards Nationalism (Wataniyya) as part and parcel of the religious faith. Nothing is loftier or deeper in Nationalism than waging Jihad against the enemy and confronting him when he sets foot on the land of the Muslims. And this becomes an individual duty binding on every Muslim man and woman; a woman must go out and fight the enemy even without her husband’s authorization, and a slave without his masters’ permission. This [principle] does not exist under any other regime, and it is a truth not to be questioned.

Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.
..For Palestine is an Islamic land where the First Qibla and the third holiest site are located. That is also the place whence the Prophet, be Allah’s prayer and peace upon him, ascended to heavens. “Glorified be He who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of worship to the Far Distant Place of Worship, the neighborhood whereof we have blessed, that we might show him of our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.” Sura XVII (al-Isra’), verse 1 In consequence of this state of affairs, the liberation of that land is an individual duty binding on all Muslims everywhere. This is the base on which all Muslims have to regard the problem; this has to be understood by all Muslims. When the problem is dealt with on this basis, where the full potential of the three circles is mobilized, then the current circumstances will change and the day of liberation will come closer. “You are more awful as a fear in their bosoms than Allah. That is because they are a folk who understand not.” Sura LIX, (Al-Hashr, the Exile), verse 13.
Article Fifteen: The Jihad for the Liberation of Palestine is an Individual Obligation
When our enemies usurp some Islamic lands, Jihad becomes a duty binding on all Muslims. In order to face the usurpation of Palestine by the Jews, we have no escape from raising the banner of Jihad. This would require the propagation of Islamic consciousness among the masses on all local, Arab and Islamic levels. We must spread the spirit of Jihad among the [islamic] Umma, clash with the enemies and join the ranks of the Jihad fighters. The ‘ulama as well as educators and teachers, publicity and media men as well as the masses of the educated, and especially the youth and the elders of the Islamic Movements, must participate in this raising of consciousness. There is no escape from introducing fundamental changes in educational curricula in order to cleanse them from all vestiges of the ideological invasion which has been brought about by orientalists and missionaries.

Article Twenty-Two: The Powers which Support the Enemy
The enemies have been scheming for a long time, and they have consolidated their schemes, in order to achieve what they have achieved. They took advantage of key elements in unfolding events, and accumulated a huge and influential material wealth which they put to the service of implementing their dream. This wealth [permitted them to] take over control of the world media such as news agencies, the press, publication houses, broadcasting and the like. [They also used this] wealth to stir revolutions in various parts of the globe in order to fulfill their interests and pick the fruits. They stood behind the French and the Communist Revolutions and behind most of the revolutions we hear about here and there. They also used the money to establish clandestine organizations which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests. Such organizations are: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions Clubs, B’nai B’rith and the like. All of them are destructive spying organizations. They also used the money to take over control of the Imperialist states and made them colonize many countries in order to exploit the wealth of those countries and spread their corruption therein. As regards local and world wars, it has come to pass and no one objects, that they stood behind World War I, so as to wipe out the Islamic Caliphate. They collected material gains and took control of many sources of wealth. They obtained the Balfour Declaration and established the League of Nations in order to rule the world by means of that organization. They also stood behind World War II, where they collected immense benefits from trading with war materials and prepared for the establishment of their state. They inspired the establishment of the United Nations and the Security Council to replace the League of Nations, in order to rule the world by their intermediary. There was no war that broke out anywhere without their fingerprints on it: “…As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguishes it.
Article Twenty-Eight
The Zionist invasion is a mischievous one. It does not hesitate to take any road, or to pursue all despicable and repulsive means to fulfill its desires. It relies to a great extent, for its meddling and spying activities, on the clandestine organizations which it has established, such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, Lions, and other spying associations. All those secret organizations, some which are overt, act for the interests of Zionism and under its directions, strive to demolish societies, to destroy values, to wreck answerableness, to totter virtues and to wipe out Islam. It stands behind the diffusion of drugs and toxics of all kinds in order to facilitate its control and expansion. The Arab states surrounding Israel are required to open their borders to the Jihad fighters, the sons of the Arab and Islamic peoples, to enable them to play their role and to join their efforts to those of their brothers among the Muslim Brothers in Palestine. The other Arab and Islamic states are required, at the very least, to facilitate the movement of the Jihad fighters from and to them. We cannot fail to remind every Muslim that when the Jews occupied Holy Jerusalem in 1967 and stood at the doorstep of the Blessed Aqsa Mosque, they shouted with joy: “Muhammad is dead, he left daughters behind.” Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”

Therefore for Dre to come on this board and say he thinks its nonsense for Israel to be Jewish but has NOTHING to say about Hamas speaks for itself. Israel came about as a state created to protect Jews precisely because of the above. It is illogical to state should not be created to protect the very people ear marked for death by people claiming to be Muslim.

[Big Guy]

The difficulties with a proposed Jewish State is that there are areas where religion will clash with human rights. The LGBT community in Israel is nervous about the official designation of the Jewish State as to the attitude towards gays. The religious position is that it is not normal and "conversion therapy" (making gays straight) is encouraged.

If the right takes a more powerful position there is fear that the advances made with gay marriage and other gay related legislation may be overturned. It will be interesting to how the LGBT community positions itself in the coming elections.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Big Guy

[Rue]

^{Further to my comments as to the constitution of Hamas the Palestinian Constitution, Chapter One: Foundations of the State and Rights and Duties, Section One: General Foundations of the State, states:}

^{Article 6}

^{Islam shall be the official religion of the state.}

^{Article 7}

^{The principles of the Islamic Shari`a are a primary source for legislation.}

^{Again to argue Israel should not be a religious state but ignore that the Palestinian Authority defines itself necessarily as a MUSLIM government is inconsistent.}

^{Its also even more inconsistent when we then read its entire statute and the constitution of Fatah its organization which goes on to state in the Fatah Constititon, CHAPTER ONE Principles... Goals.... Methods The Movement's Essential Principles, the following:}

^{Article (4) The Palestinian struggle is part and parcel of the world-wide struggle against Zionism, colonialism and international imperialism.}

<sup>Article (7) The Zionist Movement is racial, colonial and aggressive in ideology, goals, organisation and method.

Article (8) The Israeli existence in Palestine is a Zionist invasion with a colonial expansive base, and it is a natural ally to colonialism and international imperialism.

Article (9) Liberating Palestine and protecting its holy places is an Arab, religious and human obligation.</sup>

^Goals

<sup>Article (12) Complete liberation of Palestine, and eradication of Zionist economic, political, military and cultural existence.

Article (17) Armed public revolution is the inevitable method to liberating Palestine.</sup>

^{Article (19) Armed struggle is a strategy and not a tactic, and the Palestinian Arab People's armed revolution is a decisive factor in the liberation fight and in uprooting the Zionist existence, and this struggle will not cease unless the Zionist state is demolished and Palestine is completely liberated.}

^{Requirements of Membership}

^{He must take the following oath:}

^{(By Allah, the almighty and by my honour and beliefs I swear to remain faithful to Palestine, and to spare no effort to liberate it; I swear not to disclose any of the Movement's (FATEH) secrets and affairs; this is a free oath, to which God bears witness.)}

^{The above clearly states it is the existing belief of the PA and its organization FATAH that their goal is to get rid of a JEWISH Israel and replace it with a MUSLIM one. To pretend it does not say that and act as if Israel is the only state in the region of religious nature is absurd.}

[Rue]

The difficulties with a proposed Jewish State is that there are areas where religion will clash with human rights. The LGBT community in Israel is nervous about the official designation of the Jewish State as to the attitude towards gays. The religious position is that it is not normal and "conversion therapy" (making gays straight) is encouraged.

If the right takes a more powerful position there is fear that the advances made with gay marriage and other gay related legislation may be overturned. It will be interesting to how the LGBT community positions itself in the coming elections.

The above is sheer fabrication. In fact Israel is the only state in the Middle East that protects the rights of gays and lesbians to be just that.

In fact being a gay or lesbian is illegal in Sharia law states.

Not only is the above without legal basis but it is past absurd. How the writer of this can think he can criticize Zionism as being against the expression of a collective identity is absolutely illogical.

Zionism is to the expression of the Jewish collective as being gay or lesbian is to the gay/lesbian collective, something this writer clearly can not fathom as he has no clue what Zionism stands for let alone what Sharia law states stand for or what the existing laws are in Israel that build in protection and equality of gays.

The sheer ignorance about Israel illustrate once again an attempt to speak and try pass oneself off as an authority on a topic they have no clue about.

Israel like Canada is openly dealing with equality rights issues for gays and lesbians-like Canada it is a work in progress but to say what the writer did is a blatant falsehood:

http://www.haaretz.com/meta/Tag/Gay%20rights%20in%20Israel

http://glbt.org.il/en/news/articles.php?articleID=1573

http://www.acri.org.il/en/category/the-right-to-equality/lgbt-rights/

http://www.greasy.com/greatmartin/gay_rights_israel--long_interesting.html#.VIIO_NQo40M

http://www.yourish.com/2006/11/21/2324

http://www.queerlife.co.za/test/news-sp-296004047/news2013/8367-israel-to-improve-gay-rights.html

It is interesting. This is a thread on the right of Israel to be a JEWISH state and this writer tries to suggest by being Jewish this is anti gay? Not a peep of course about the treatment of gays in Muslim states from this same writer. Not a peep.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4490341,00.html

Edited December 5, 2014 by Rue

[Big Guy]

Most major American Jewish groups are against the proposed Jewish State bill. Netanyahu is a strong supporter. It will be interesting to see how this issue plays during the next election.

Just read Rue's readable length post. - Thank you for the brevity. My understanding is that the Jewish religion does not accept homosexuality as an acceptable practice. I am incorrect?

I would assume that a religious state would have a domestic policy based on its religious beliefs. If that is the case, how could a "Jewish State" have policies which run against its religion?

Edited December 5, 2014 by Big Guy

[dre]

Dre's response makes no sense. It fails to address the fact that Abbas and Hamas have repeatedely stated they will only recognize Israel as a MUSLIM state.

It doesnt matter WHAT Israels neigbors recognize her as, as long as they respect Israels territoritorial boundaries, right to control their own borders, make their own laws, and other aspects of statehood.

Its a double standard. Dre will criticize Israel for arguing its Jewish but not criticize those who do not agree with Israel being Jewish and demanding it be Muslim. Either they are all wrong or no one is wrong.

Im not critisizing Israel for arguing its Jewish... I could honestly care less. Im critisizing the new demand that OTHERS outside Israel proclaim their recognition of Israels Jewishness. Its not necessary in any way, and its yet another obstacle to a negotiated settlement (an intentional one, like the settlement building)

Dre's position is inconsistent. If he were to call for the end of all religious states including all Sharia law states instead of only singling out Israel as a religious state, he might have more credibility.

This is just more of your typical nonsense and projection.

First of all Im not critisizing Israel for being a Jewish state. I could care less. Second of all, my position on religious states has been consistant in the 5+ years Iv been posting here. I have disdain for whole idea of them. Islamic states are a blight on the world, and and an affront to the people that have to live in them.

I favor completely secular societies, and disdain the idea of basing civil society on fake, fairy tale dieties, whether their names are Ala, Yahwey, or Jesus, or Vishnu.

Never has Dre come on this board and denounced any state for being religious EXCEPT Israel.

Never have you read a post and replied to what it actually said.

Therefore his response is nonsensical because for him to argue he is not for a religious state so its an obstacle to peace while ignoring their demand it be a religious state and that not being an obstacle to peace makes zero sense, zero.

Cool story bro! Problem is thats not what I argue at all. I dont like the idea of states based on fairy tales myself, but if states full of muslims or jews want to define themselves that way than I guess thats their stupid choice. They do NOT however have the right to demand that anyone else recognize whatever their official national fairy tale happens to be.

[dre]

Therefore for Dre to come on this board and say he thinks its nonsense for Israel to be Jewish but has NOTHING to say about Hamas speaks for itself. Israel came about as a state created to protect Jews precisely because of the above. It is illogical to state should not be created to protect the very people ear marked for death by people claiming to be Muslim.

Thats a really nice and special story.... Problem is I never SAID I thought it was nonsense for Israel to be Jewish. In GENERAL I personally think its a bad idea to interweave civil society with fairy tales and mythology, but to each their own. If Israelis want Israel to be a Jewish state then that is their right, and nobody should interfere with it. They can define themselves however they want to, but they do not have the right to compell anyone else to recognize anything at all.

It is interesting. This is a thread on the right of Israel to be a JEWISH state and this writer tries to suggest by being Jewish this is anti gay?

No the thread is about Israels right to exist. Not exactly hooked on phonix are ya?

Edited December 5, 2014 by dre

[Rue]

Most major American Jewish groups are against the proposed Jewish State bill. Netanyahu is a strong supporter. It will be interesting to see how this issue plays during the next election.

Just read Rue's readable length post. - Thank you for the brevity. My understanding is that the Jewish religion does not accept homosexuality as an acceptable practice. I am incorrect?

I would assume that a religious state would have a domestic policy based on its religious beliefs. If that is the case, how could a "Jewish State" have policies which run against its religion?

People are against the proposed Jewish state bill yes and some are Jewish and some are not. There are many complex reasons why. Part of the bill I myself do not like. Problems specific to that bill I can discuss in another thread.

In regards to your understanding that the Jewish religion does not accept homosexuality as an acceptable practice-yes ultra orthodox and certain orthdox Jews condemn it for the exact same reason certain Christians and Muslims do. However the vast majority of Israelis are not even religious-their Jewish identity is not based on being a fundamentalist Jew and therefore against homosexuality. Like me their belief in religion is unorthodox and they could care less if you were gay or straight.

Now before you assume its domestic policies are slaves to orthodox Jewish principles try just once to not assume and go find out. In fact if you want to opt out of modern mainstream Israeli family laws and follow fundamentalist Christian, Jewish or Muslim ones, you have that option of opting out and proceeding to religious courts.

However the mainstream Israeli courts like those in Canada treat gays and lesbians as equals and their protection and equal rights have been recognized in court and homsexuals from the Muslim world have fleed to Israel and not been deported.

Orthodox Jews formed a Religious Party that runs and gets members elected in the Knesset and they join the coalition with other parties to form a majority government and try influence certain policies, but they are a minority party and Netanyahu does not like them anymore then they like him. They in fact consider Netanyahu not religious enough. Netanyahu is a typical Israeli-they had to fight in wars and watch their comrades die-their perspective of God is that of a soldier's. Soldiers learn a way of life after seeing death that can not be defined in easy to understand terms. The best I can describe it as, is existential, matter of fact, life is here now in the moment precious and often overwhelmingly unfair, absurd, and obscene but we must carry on and make the best of it for the sake of our children and their children and we are already dead...if you can grasp that which I doubt.

Now you asked a very absurd question and that is how can the Jewish state have policies which run against its religion. Uh hello, it cosntantly passes laws that its Chief Rabbinate screams and complains about. Maybe you need to read up instead of assuming all these things? Maybe you need to read before you come on the board using such assumptions to make further assumptions?

Back up. Ultra-orthodox, Hasidic Jews in Israel and on the West Bank (Hebron) believe Israel should not be created until the messiah returns and so they indeed dispute the existence of the Jewish state. They live in Israel enjoying all its benefits but refuse to recognize it.

They do not serve in its military or even work but they collect welfare, use its hospitals, drink its water. There are 125,000 or so of them on the West Bank and Mr. Abbas said he will not allow them to be citizens of Palestine when Palestine becomes a nation even though they are not Zionists.These same people fight with Muslims over certain sites in Jerusalem so remember that when you think they are Israelis in your stereotyping. The average Israeli has to work-they have no time to go to the wall and pray.

As well numerous state policies and laws in Israel are in direct conflict with Jewish religion the very same way laws in Canada conflict with conservative Christian values.

The state is continually in conflict with its Jewish religion because the very nature of Judaism as a religion and as a political nationalist or collective reference mean different things at different times and so often collide as they are enunciated and practiced.

Within the Israel Army for example there is a debate as to whether Rabbias should be in units saying prayers for soldiers who do not want them.

Where you got the idea that being a Jew means they/we all follow the same religious values is beyond me. There is no black and white Jewish definition and never was. Its a mix of religion, culture, ethnicity, language, political national collective identity, connections to being persecuted.

The Judaism practied by Felashies is far different then that practiced by say Russian Jews or Morroccan Jews.

Within Judaism there are many sects including humanist (atheist-agnostic), reconstructionist, reform, conservative, orthodox, ultra-orthodox that recognize Israel, ultra-orthodox who do not.

Then there are those who were Jews and then converted to other religions but still demand they be called Jews.

Then there are people like me who you will not be able to define.

So no absolutely not, you can not stereotype Jews or Israelis as hating gays with this notion you have that Judaism hates homosexuals.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Rue

[August1991]

I think any nation that wants to exist has the right to exist so long as a majority of the people in that region wish for it too. Is that not democracy? If me and the entirety of the population of Vancouver Island, as impractical as it may be, wish to start a country on said Island and name The Force from Star Wars as our state religion. Do we have the right to exist?

What if 49.9% oppose very strongly your desire to have a Vancouver Island country, and your 50.1% have a flippant/West-Coast whacky desire to have one? IOW, what if the 49.9% who oppose your Vancouver Island country stand to lose their livelihood while the 50.1% who favour are voting on a "The Force" whim?

Democracy is one thing. Protection of minorities is another thing. To me, democracy is merely a way to ensure that a State can change opposing government leaders peacefully - and society can protect itself against tyrants.

======

Israel? The State of Israel is the canary of Western civilization in the backward coal mine of f*cked-up states. If Israel dies ( or doesn't exist), we in the West will soon follow because it will mean that we have lost the desire to defend the values of the Enlightenment.

Edited December 6, 2014 by August1991

[Rue]

Oh look who once again is trying to qualify and waffle.

Dre you pointed out its stupid for Israel to insist it be considered a Jewish state and that by so demanding its doing this to be a deliberate tactic to prevent peace with Abbas, Its there.

I rebutted it saying the demand to be recognized as Jewish comes about precisely because Hamas and Abbas and the Arab League are demanding Israel not be Jewish and become Muslim again.

The contention its unreasonable for its citizens not to want to be placed in a Muslim state and treated as inferiors simply bcause they are Jews which forced Jews to start a state, you once again ignore.

You are well aware his is not a situation where Abbas and Hamas are leders of non religious states. They are leaders of religious nationalist movements calling for the turning of Israel into a Muslim state and the war against Jews world wide, If the world was such that there were no Muslim states or Christian states let alone Muslim and Christian states that forced Jews to start their own to protect themselves from extinction and if the world was such that no Muslim states and terror cells today existed calling or the creation of a Muslim state in what is now Israel of course it would not need to be recognized as Jewish.

What In your world when someone points a gun in my face and says I will kill you for being either a Jew or a Jew with a state because of my Muslim beliefs, you counter argue I am n obstacle to peace because I insist the person d accept me for what I am as I do them and don't agree to be ignored as to who I am?

Right.

Right Dre.

Your absurd response has Israel operating in a vacuum. For no reason Jews suddenly needed to be recognized as Jews and have a state. Kazaam for no reason it was just a whim-over bagels and lox one day some Jews said, hey lets go back to Israel and be a pain in the ass. Yoohooo oh Muslims-loookee over here its dah Jooz we are back..!!

In one breathyou concede that you are against all religious states but I note you again avoided any criticism at Hamas or Abbas and the fact that their position is to create a Muslim state in Israel and this is what has forced Netanyahu now to say, enough is enough, stop playing semantics. stop saying you will recognize Israel and then attaching to that recognition conditions that it will be a Muslim religious state where Jews return to being dhimmi and for that matter than any Jew post 1949 can not even be an Israeli.

Right it's an obstacle to peace for Jews to say no, we created a state precisely because you treated us as dhiimmi in Muslim states and we were persecuted in Christian states and we had no choice but to take a stand for universal sufferage.

Go on finish it then Come on this board and call for the abolishment of all religious states. Go on finish it. How do you intend to disband Muslim states, the Vatican, England? How do you intend to dismantle the religious connections in states all over the world? You don't. Your words pointedly only refer to Israel.

Your criticism selects out only Israel. For once come on this board and use the very same standards you use against Israel with Abbas, Hamas and the Arab League nations, the Vatican, England. Go on. Stop avoiding the references.

Stop avoding referencing them.Stop ignoring their religious beliefs that fuel their political nationalist beliefs. Stop using a standard for Jewish nationalism you will not use for Muslim nationalism which comes off loud and clear from your refusal just once to say, Israel can not be silent while people are at war with Jews. It is a state created to prevent the extinction of Jews.

Be consistent. This half assed reference to being against all religious states is laughable. All one has to do is read the entirety of your posts to see you will never concede the reincarnated Jewish state became a necessity to protect Jews and it would have never come about if it did not have to, i.e., if both Islam and Christianity did not have in their beliefs the express doctrines that their states define Jews as inferiors not entitled to equal state rights.

In the real world Dre, Jews took a stand with a state as a REACTION to extinction from other religion susing states t wipe us out. It is that simple.

Stop pointing the finger at the person being told they will be killed for being a Jew or treated inferior because of religious doctrine attached to a state apparatus that will impose our inferiority.

Go tell the Muslim extremists and states to stop being Muslim. Good luck.

Israel does not have a constitution calling for the extermination of Muslims world wide. Judaism has never defined Muslims as Musims define us, inferiors who are monkeys and need to be killed for not believing in Allah.

Some of us Dre are not selective. Judaism does not define Muslims as infidel. We do not refer to Muslims as khafir and dhimmi and have passages in the Bible as they do in the Koran calling for a war to rid the world of Muslims.

Israel never went to war to impose Judaism on Muslims. The very fundamental principle of Zionism prevents conversion and imposition of Judaism on Christians or Muslims who are Israeli citizens in Israel state laws, because Judaism forbids it. Now go back your Muslim Sharia law states and find out what they do to non Muslims and explain how you will disband that so there will be no need for an Israel. Go on then.

Israel's right to exist as a collective Jewish identity became a necessity to prevent its people from being wiped out by Muslim and Christian religious states.

That has not changed. Now mind you Christian states today, or that is to say states affiliated with the Christian religion have evolved. Anti-Semitism exists on a personal level but at least most governments have moved past laws forbidding Jews from owning land or voting or holding certain professions. Politicians and monarchs no longer attend church services where Priests tell their audiences Jews killed and betrayed Jesus having these monarchs cry out to their people to kill Jews. No the Czar no longer rides in packs of his hand picked nobles supervising pogroms.

However from a practical perspective after World War Two, the door for Jews returning home was made impossible precisely because the UN abandon Jews. It made ZERO effort to help Jews. Elenor Roosevelt had to take on the entire world through her office at the UN to even get the world to admit Jews from Europe existed and since Europe would not acknowledge them, they had no choice but to go to Israel.

France and the US interestingly took in the most Jews after WW2. No one else did although in fairness to the Dutch they would have and offered it. Everyone else set up obstacles to their return. So to turn back the clock now and say, oh Jews should have stayed in Europe and not gone to Israel, what a crock. What a crock when the Mullah of Jerusalem sat through WW2 as a guest of Hitler in a stolen Jewish home and played a direct role in the creation of using cyclone pellet administered gas to wipe out Jews and called for the extermination of Jews world wide in the name of Allah.

For you to sit there and pontificate and infer that its an obstacle to peace for Israel to say to Abbas and Hamas-you want to turn our citizens into the dead simply because they chose to be defined as equals and have their Jewish identity protected by the state-no here we stand-you refuse to recognize us and demand the land be Muslim, you'll have to kill us first-that is an obstacle to peace? What because I demand someone not kill me and fight for my right to be an equal?.

Until you state that the failure of the Arab League of Nations and its Muslim sharia law states to control its Muslim beliefs and not use its states and terrorists in the name of Allah to engage in a war against Jews simply because they will not be treated as dhimmi until that happens, you are mincing your words.

You know full well, the reality is such that the Sharia law nations of the Middle East have no intention of disbanding their religious identities and therefore the religious beliefs imposed through its states that Jews are dhimmi. Their religion chose to make treating non Muslims as inferiors an obstacle to peace. Don't try reverse that as if Jews created that obstacle.

The Christian world and Muslim world make it impossible to turn back the clock and make Jews go poof in a world where other religions will continue to exist and do the very same things they want Jews to go poof for..

The point is-in the REAL world not Dre's make believe world Israel Is a Jewish state because it has the right to be one no different than other states are Sharia law states.

It is surrounded by hostile states and terror cells operating in those states that demand it become Muslim. It would be illogical under that circumstance for the Israeli state to abandon its peoples rights not to be treated as dhimmi and allow Hamas to wipe them out simply because they are Jews.

Edited December 6, 2014 by Rue

[overthere]

It doesnt matter WHAT Israels neigbors recognize her as, as long as they respect Israels territoritorial boundaries, right to control their own borders, make their own laws, and other aspects of statehood.

Oh, but it does matter. The 'Jewish State' is not material, but recognition of Israels right to exist at all is central. Egypt and Jordan have done that. The 'State of Palestine' has in theory, in practice they are owned by Hamas who wish to Kill Them All. Syria and Lebanon of course do not recognize the right to exist, nor do nearly all the Muslim nations on the planet.

[Rue]

Overthere in the context of Dre's response, since he thinks it does not matter Israel be Jewish we suspend reality and ignore the fact that it does matter to Hamas, Abbas, Intifada Palestine, Palestiniah Jihad Al Asqa Martyr Brigade, Fatah, Iran, Hezbollah, ISIL, AL Quaeda, on and on.

In his debating position what he feels is all that matters,

[overthere]

Overthere in the context of Dre's response, since he thinks it does not matter Israel be Jewish we suspend reality and ignore the fact that it does matter to Hamas, Abbas, Intifada Palestine, Palestiniah Jihad Al Asqa Martyr Brigade, Fatah, Iran, Hezbollah, ISIL, AL Quaeda, on and on.

In his debating position what he feels is all that matters,

No, it does not matter to any of those groups what Israel calls itself.

They'd hate it and continue to try to destroy it under any name.

[marcus]

Israel can call itself whatever it wants. A Jewish State, it is, but a democracy, (even if it wants to call itself one) it barely resembles one anymore.

[bush_cheney2004]

Israel is just a much a democracy as any other "western" government, and it doesn't have a ruling monarch like some nations claiming to be better.

[marcus]

Israel is just a much a democracy as any other "western" government, and it doesn't have a ruling monarch like some nations claiming to be better.

There is symbolism and then there is action.

In a democratic country everyone is treated equally and has equal rights. There should be an absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges.

Israel has some semblance of a democracy, but because it lacks in the above, it fails in be a true democratic nation.