Does Israel have a right to exist?

[Big Guy]

Everybody knows that the taking of the Golan Heights (opposed by most of the international community) was only a defensive measure required for Israeli security. That is why it expelled about 90,000 Syrians Christians, Muslims and Druze. The fact that it controls 15% of water into Israel is not a factor.

BTW, Israel is beginning to drill for oil in the Golan Heights. What a surprise!

[GostHacked]

Don't forget the drilling for oil off the Gaza coast.

[overthere]

Some are more "inseparable" than others, as the U.K. remains America's most important ally. Domestic politics in those other nations have more impact on military and security relationship(s) with the U.S.

"Never be separated from the Americans." - Winston Churchill (speaking in 1955 on trade)

No. The US may be the most important ally for the UK, and that may strengthen if the UK leaves the EU, but that certainly does not mean the inverse is true.

This is what matters:

The United States and Canada have the largest trade relationship in the world.^[1] In 2012, U.S. merchandise trade with Canada consisted of US$324.2 billion in imports and US$292.4 billion in exports.^[2] The trade relationship between the two countries crosses all industries and is vital to both nations’ success as each country is the largest trade partner of the other.

It also matters that we share a 5000 km land border, and three ocean coastlines, and the path of ballistic missiles from a bunch of Americas enemies pass over Canada. Y'all get a little moist when the Royals stop in for a visit, but your real buddies are right next door.

[bush_cheney2004]

No. The US may be the most important ally for the UK, and that may strengthen if the UK leaves the EU, but that certainly does not mean the inverse is true.

The same is true for Canada....needing U.S. military and economic integration far more than the U.S. needs Canada.

This is what matters:

It also matters that we share a 5000 km land border, and three ocean coastlines, and the path of ballistic missiles from a bunch of Americas enemies pass over Canada. Y'all get a little moist when the Royals stop in for a visit, but your real buddies are right next door.

Nope.....Canada rejected ballistic missile defense years ago and does not provide defense capabilities commensurate with its geographic size and location in North America. The EU, China, Mexico, and Japan are a far more balanced U.S. export trade than 75% of Canada's exports going to the USA.

[jbg]

Everybody knows that the taking of the Golan Heights (opposed by most of the international community) was only a defensive measure required for Israeli security. That is why it expelled about 90,000 Syrians Christians, Muslims and Druze. The fact that it controls 15% of water into Israel is not a factor.

BTW, Israel is beginning to drill for oil in the Golan Heights. What a surprise!

The Golan Heights was taken since it was, prior to 1967, an elevated platform for shelling by the Syrian Army. Does anyone seriously think that some terrorist group wouldn't take up the cudgels if Israel withdrew.

Since there is no serious chance of Israeli withdrawal why not drill for oil, gas or fracking opportunities. Do you enjoy low gasoline prices?

[Big Guy]

Would be nice if the Israelis gave a good portion of the profits from oil in the Golan Heights to the 90,000 Syrian Christians, Muslims and Druze that Israel tossed off their land. And you wonder why Israel is becoming a pariah on the world stage.

[GostHacked]

The Golan Heights was taken since it was, prior to 1967, an elevated platform for shelling by the Syrian Army. Does anyone seriously think that some terrorist group wouldn't take up the cudgels if Israel withdrew.

Since there is no serious chance of Israeli withdrawal why not drill for oil, gas or fracking opportunities. Do you enjoy low gasoline prices?

Saudi Arabia has more influence on the global oil price market than Israel ever could hope to have. As we have seen in the past month or so. Not only that the prices are affecting both Russia and the USA.

Edited January 2, 2015 by GostHacked

[Hudson Jones]

Since there is no serious chance of Israeli withdrawal why not drill for oil, gas or fracking opportunities. Do you enjoy low gasoline prices?

Yeah man! Since there is no serious chance of Israel following international law, why not... drill baby drill?! Your insistence for a country to follow international law is driving up gas prices! I hope you're happy with yourself Big Guy and anyone else who thinks Israel should follow international law.

[Rue]

Dre at one level I would agree Gaza is quite a different type of security issue than the West Bank for Israel. Itdid not suggest they were the same,

However Sharon did pull the troops out of Gaza is my point when many said it would not be done.

Now currently I disagree with you that Israel's prime concern at the moment with the West Bank is not security but natural resources.

I will explain my position further but before I do that I would point out by the year 2016 Israel knows the population on the West Bank will outnumber the Israeli population and they basically have until then to figure away to find secure borders because the other option, annexing the West Bank would mean Israel's population would be majority Muslim meaning it would cease being Israel a Jewish state and that it will not let happen and it is in no position to physically move Palestinians off the West Bank anywhere. Its never tried and its doubtful it ever would.

I believe the security wall installation was part of a deliberate and eventual plan to secure a safe border in about 10% of the West Bank and vacate the rest. I believe Israel knows it has no partners to talk peace with and will have no choice but to unilaterally withdrawal.

That said I believe its withdrawal has to taken into consideration Hamas and the PA will not renounce their claim to the Jewish state of Israel ever and will remain at war with it even after Israel withdraws and so with the likelihood of continued terror attacks, Israel will not withdraw to the 1967 borders exposing its only airport and the heart of its nation's population to terror attacks.

Israel will never again allow the West Bank or Golan or Gaza or south Lebanon or the Sinai to be used as a launching pad to attack it and it could care less when some idiot like Obama or Kerry lectures them they must unilaterally withdraw without obtaining any condition attached that Hamas and the PA will disarm and recognize it as a Jewish state. The British would not sit and talk to the IRA until they disarmed and neither will Israel with its terrorists.

Now where I disagree with Dre as to Israel's prime security concern is follows. At the current time there are over 300 individual terror cells each with their own leader, in a declared state of war with Israel operating on the West Bank. In the year 2013, there were 1,217 terror attacks launched against Israel Israel from the West Bank.

The amount of attacks continues to increase but one of the things people are not aware of, is how many are stopped precisely because of the presene of Shin Bet,the counter-terrorist Israeli security force operating on the West Bank and yes it most certainly depends on Israeli settlers for intelligence.

The most dangerous of terrorist units still operating and in a declared state of war to end Israel's existence include:

Fatah with its groups; Fatah Eagles,Fatah Hawks, Al Asqa Martyr Brigade, and its associated terror cells the Popular Frontfor the Liberation of Palestine, (PFLP), the Popular Democratic Front For the Liberation of Palestine, the Popular Democratic Front For the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, The Arab Liberation Front, Al Quaida, Hezbollah, ISIL, Force 17, Tanzim, Abu Nidal,Palestine Islamic Jihad, Palestine Intifada, ad of course Hamas.

With the exception of Hamas all these groups are in the Palestinian Authority umbrella and were never elected, all are armed,all belive in terrorism as a legitimate means to express political will,all reject democracy as a political concept,and all agree with an interpretation of Islam that believes all of Israel, Jordan, the Gaza and West Bank must be turned into a Muslim state, as a first step in creating a world wide Muslim state. Jews, not just ZIonist Jews, but all Jews are referred to as a cursed people who must be killed in a religious world and so in their vision, the ultra orthodox Jews who do not even recognize Israel and have lived in and around Hebron for thousands of years are expendable in the war which is ironic.

These groups share that same belief Hamas does and their constitutions are no different than those of Hamas. The only difference is these above groups do not like or trust Hamas. However like Hamas all are funded by Iran and trained by Iran and the Muslim Brotherhood and have the full support of Iran,Erdogan of Turkey and Obama who is openly pro Muslim Brotherhood and has openly sided and supports Hamas and sees Iran as an ally.

That of course is a prime security concern. To deny it is absurd, Each day,Shin Bet thwarts terror attacks. The attacks I have already listed on this board in a previous thread and have gone on steadily without abatement since 1948.

How Dre would dismiss them as Israel's primary concern is absurd. I have been to the West Bank, I was part of a medic team there, I know the terrain and how small it is, I saw the kinds of tension and attacks that happen, and I can say each day it is a concern of not just Israelis but Palestinians.

Both are caught in a situation where there is tension with BOTH the IDF and the PA or the terrorists who are known to the people but stay invisible as best they can to the IDF.

After the kidnappings and deaths we saw this year, to dismiss the security concern is absurd. Its a factor.

Israelis time and time again when polled would be prepared to support a withdraw of settlers if it meant peace. However they are also not prepared to unilaterally withdraw to 1967 borders only to have terrorists attack them from literally feet away in distance. They will not agree to suicide.

To understand how small the land is and the distance between pre 1967 and post 1967 Israel one must travel to the West Bank to see how vulnerable

Israel would be to attacks.

More to the point there to suggest the West Bank has valuable resources Israel wants is ridiculous. Anyone who has travelled there knows it is a desert and has always been. There is no water and the farmers struggle to produce melons, olives, figs, dates or exist on goats. Water and electricity are huge issues as is a proper sewage system which is non existent. The fragile environment has been polluted by human garbage and over-population by both sides. Toxic garbage has mixed with the land.

Israel has its own oil deposit located half way between Cyprus and Israel which it has entered into an agreement with.

While it has drilled for oil on the Golan that area appears to only have small isolated pockets of poor quality oil.

By the way when Israel went into the Golan and anyone can travel there to see it, they would realize its not very large and so the reference to displaced Christians, Druze, etc., by Israel is melodrama. Yes about 250 farmers got displaced back in 1967 but anyone who travels there would see its not very large. Its a plateau that overlooks Israeli farms. Its a shelf, a small shelf of land.

Now back to the West Bank. Abbas has zero control over these cells that sit openly in his Palestinian Authority side by side his supposedly elected officials chanting death to Israel.. Anyone of them could kill Abbas in a second, the only reason they have no turned on him is their mutual distrust of Hamas which they need him to control for them,

Now lets talk Hamas. They have openly stated they would us the so called unity government to commence Hamas terror operations from the West Bank and that they did.

Hamas also last year tried to assassinate Abbas and take over the PA and were thwarted by a combination of Israeli, Egyptian, Jordanian counter-intelligence that tipped Abbas off before he was killed.

Obama was aware of it, and rumours are he and Erdogan wanted Abbas out and Hamas in.

Since that time Saudi, Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and Israel saw the crisis with ISIS emerge as well as the attempt on Abbas and realized Obama and Kerry were empowering Hamas and Iran to meddle on the West Bank and formed an alliance which has worked together to try contain these cells.

They all share mutual security concerns as to Gaza, the West Bank and over Hezbollah, Iran, Hamas and ISIS as well as Obama.

Nothing is going to happen until Obama leaves.

A different US President, probably a Republican, will swing away from supporting Iran, Erdigan and the Muslim Brotherhood who created Hamas and Isis as well as Al Quaeda, and once again form an alliance with SA, Egypt, Israel and Jordan giving them a clear signal they will not support Hamas and Hezbollah or Iran. When that happens, Abbas will feel empowered again to try something. Until then his barking at the UN is as much aimed at Hamas as many think it is intended for Israel.

He is trying to show he is still relevant.

Peace can not and will not come to the West Bank as long as it remains armed no differently that what happened in Northern Ireland.

As for resources, with due respect the West Bank has none. To survive it would need to be brought into a common trading market with Jordan and Israel. It is not capable of being self sufficient.

As well one last thing should be pointed out. Jordan is extremely unstable. The US sent in US troops two years ago to protect the King who has been targeted for death by Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, Assad on and on.

Jordan is even more vulnerable than Israel to an attempted coups by Muslim extremists. It too is intricately tied to the West bank and a target of terrorists and if attacked or seized could trigger a major conflict.

Edited January 3, 2015 by Rue

[GostHacked]

I will explain my position further but before I do that I would point out by the year 2016 Israel knows the population on the West Bank will outnumber the Israeli population and they basically have until then to figure away to find secure borders because the other option, annexing the West Bank would mean Israel's population would be majority Muslim meaning it would cease being Israel a Jewish state and that it will not let happen and it is in no position to physically move Palestinians off the West Bank anywhere. Its never tried and its doubtful it ever would.

Rue, are you retracting your stance on the settlements? I thought you said they were a barrier to the peace process?

Israelis time and time again when polled would be prepared to support a withdraw of settlers if it meant peace. However they are also not prepared to unilaterally withdraw to 1967 borders only to have terrorists attack them from literally feet away in distance. They will not agree to suicide.

Building Jewish settlements in the occupied territories puts those Israelis at risk of attack. You know, the 'only a few feet away'. But since you are arguing a demographic and a religious homogenous point, one could conclude that you advocate ethnic cleansing of the West Bank to make it more Jew friendly. I don't want to put words in your mouth like you do to everyone else. SO I won't 'translate' anything. Instead I will ask you to clarify your statements.

Edited January 3, 2015 by GostHacked

[Rue]

No Ghost I am not. I state again, the settlements on the West Bank are an obstacle to peace, a very real one and precisely as I said. What I have also stated is Israel can't withdraw any differently than Britain left Northern Ireland under the conditions it did, until terrorists disarm.

There's many obstacles to peace, the settlements, terrorists, extremists on both sides. I just do not think simply presenting a one sided analysis that it is only settlements that are an obstacle to peace is a fair analysis. I am trying to argue there are many obstacles.

The building of settlements was once done as early warning posts for incoming terrorists. Today that is obsolete. Sattelites and other technology and the security fence do the same thing more effectively.

The very physical presence on the West Bank is a friction, an open wound. Its like an ulcer that won't heal in the psyche of Palestinians. It makes them feel humiliated and so it eats away at their pride and ego making them angrier and more militant. Its biggest effect is a negative collective psychological one that makes them feel humiliated.

In reverse, Israelis feel the same way. They feel the tactics of Arafat and his spitting openly in their face and making a mockery of previous negotiations claiming they were a sham all along was the final insult of insults and there is no point of return or ever negotiating with Palestinians again until disarming of terrorists is seen, Until that happens Israelis do not believe peace is possible any more than Palestinians do with Israelis being on the West Bank.

For Palestinians the settlements are an obstacle. For Israelis its the terrorists who would be inches away from them if they returned to 1967 borders.

No more, no less.

I truly believe if terrorists could be disarmed, all other peaceful possibilities are unlimited. I believe myself, from what I witnessed, that as many Palestinians as Israelis hate the terrorists and wish they were disarmed but are helpless to do anything about that.

I will say it again, I believe Israelis and Palestinians both can not stand the terrorists and extremists but at this point neither feels capable of disarming Hamas, Tanzim, Force 17, Palestinian Jihad, Palestinian Intifada, Fatah Hawks.Eagles, Al Asqua, Al Quaeda, Hezbollah, on and on.

Just today Al Nusra the armed wing of Al Quaeda in Syria had a huge battle with Hezbollah. Both are in a bloody war against each other and one of the reasons why is because in the past while they were always dead enemies, both remain focused on a mutual hatred of Israel, now their focus is on one another

The Muslim world has always been a bubbling civil war between different Muslims sects and the only thing that prevented their implosion as is going on today was a unity brought about by their mutual hatred of Israel. That glue, the mutual hatred of Israel, no longer works. It no longer has impact. The Israel conflict was only one of thousands and its lost meaning today. Hamas which is in effect the same body as ISIL and Al Quaeda and Al Nusra, all created by the Muslim Brotherhood, at war with Israel and depends on Hezbollah and Iran for its support but its sister units are at war with Iran and Hezbollah. Hamas as we now know it which was taken over by a pro Syria-Iran cell could blow up internally as anti Iranian influences within it struggle to take it back.

Right now ISIL has been reported in Gaza and there has been an unbearable tension between Hamas and ISIS that could blow up no different than between Fatah and Hamas in the past.

There are many complex obstacles to peace. Just the sheer number of terror cells each with its own leader doing their own thing makes it impossible to properly predict what could happen.

All it takes is one cell, getting to get to some angry young men and getting them to engage in terror, to blow up the entire region.

Anger + youth with no jobs or future = an ideal target to recruit for terror.

This is why I say, the solution to terrorism is to find a way to redirect the destructive energy from terrorism to the constructive energy of building a common trading market and organization of states between Israel, Jordan and a Palestinian state.

That can no happen with the leaders involved at the present time. It will require a new generation distanced from the past never ending cycle of hatred.

What we need are younger Palestinians and Israelis who have evolved past fundamentalism and rigid extremism and who see themselves with things in common.

To get there people who left Palestine because they were seen by terrorists and old dinosaurs like Abbas as enemies of their state for being progressive would have to be brought back.

Finding a way to bring back moderate Muslims and injecting them into the dialogue is crucial. Without them, there is no one to empower the progressives in Israel to say we have a partner to talk peace to.

At this time progressives in Israel say, who do we talk to? Who? Where? They need someone but who? Certainly not Abbas who stood up in his assembly giving a standing ovation to chants of death to Israel. Certainly not Fatah or Hamas.

Its young Palestinians who left the West Bank disgusted with their own peoples' extremism and hatred. They are no different than the young Israelis fed up with having to have to serve as the bad guys policing civilians that detest them and those civilians who detest them are both Israelis and Palestinians.

When I talk peace I talk about it realistically. No you can't pull out civilians with terrorists waiting to resume the war the moment you pull out. That is suicide.

On the other hand, no, peace can't come about until we allow both sides to physically distance themselves with a buffer zone.

[guyser]

The reason that no country has pure democracy

Sure there is, Liberia for one.

Pure democracy........pure shithole too.