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Does Israel have a right to exist?


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Does Israel have a right to exist as a state?  

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Like a fetus?

...or a person. All will cease to exist.

The point of this merry-go-round is to disabuse anybody of the thought that Israel exists out of some such notion. Israel does not need monarchs to exist, or the UN to exist, or the US/Canada to exist, or benevolent Arabs to exist. Israel exists because it can...and will.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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...or a person. All will cease to exist.

The point of this merry-go-round is to disabuse anybody of the thought that Israel exists out of some such notion. Israel does not need monarchs to exist, or the UN to exist, or the US/Canada to exist, or benevolent Arabs to exist. Israel exists because it can...and will.

And that's all this is is a stupid merry go round. Whoever said "semantics" summed it up totally.

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I think any nation that wants to exist has the right to exist so long as a majority of the people in that region wish for it too. Is that not democracy? If me and the entirety of the population of Vancouver Island, as impractical as it may be, wish to start a country on said Island and name The Force from Star Wars as our state religion. Do we have the right to exist?

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I think any nation that wants to exist has the right to exist so long as a majority of the people in that region wish for it too. Is that not democracy? If me and the entirety of the population of Vancouver Island, as impractical as it may be, wish to start a country on said Island and name The Force from Star Wars as our state religion. Do we have the right to exist?

Damn right we do. Let's make it a tax free zone while we're at it. A few more ski hills, wineries, golf courses and a couple more airports to let the tourists fly in and we're on our way to Monaco West.

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I think any nation that wants to exist has the right to exist so long as a majority of the people in that region wish for it too. Is that not democracy? If me and the entirety of the population of Vancouver Island, as impractical as it may be, wish to start a country on said Island and name The Force from Star Wars as our state religion. Do we have the right to exist?

A majority of the people in Israels region would like to turn Israel into a graveyard for every Jew that lives there.

I'll put you down as a 'no'.

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A majority of the people in Israels region would like to turn Israel into a graveyard for every Jew that lives there.

I'll put you down as a 'no'.

How does a majority of people in a region I've never been to nor care too go to put me down as a no? They have as much right to sovereignty as any current or potential nation. I'm all for regional sovereignty. Give the Palestinians a nation, the Cascadians, the French Canadians, Vermont, Texas. Heck western Canada needs a more centralized government to lets all separate and form new nations. The map is getting boring anyways needs a few new lines.

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"Does Israel have a right to exist"?

It depends who you ask. There are many people who do not think that the USA has a right to exist.

I believe that a nation "exists" when it is recognized by the majority of the other nations of the world. The majority of nations recognize Israel as a nation then it "exists". If the majority of nations recognize an area of the Middle East as the State of Palestine then it will exist. If the majority of nations recognize an area which encompasses part of Syria and part of Iraq as the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant then ISIL will exist as a nation.

I believe that Israel is at another crossroads. Netanyahu has called an early election two years ahead of schedule. He has fired the two ministers opposing the Jewish State bill, They had been outspoken that the bill would discriminate against Israeli-Palestinian citizens.

Netanyahu hopes to continue to reinforce his contention that Israel is a Jewish state and that Jews can be the only true citizens of that nation. At the moment it appears that Netanyahu is winning and he will bring Israel towards an even more right-wing and extreme position. It is also predicted that if that does occur that it would bolster international support for the Palestinian cause.

If Israel does continue towards the right, continues to build those settlements and continues their current policies towards Gaza and other Palestinians it will be interesting to see the reaction of the USA. Just how far to the right will the USA allow Israel to move before they cut them free?

The elections will most likely take place in March.

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How does a majority of people in a region I've never been to nor care too go to put me down as a no?

because in the post you made right before the one I quoted, you said:

I think any nation that wants to exist has the right to exist so long as a majority of the people in that region wish for it too. Is that not democracy?

Did you forget you'd just written that?

Or perhaps you were unaware that Israel is in a region called the Middle East. In that region, there is one democracy, and it is is pretty much surrounded by people who wish the people in Israel to be dead and gone.

So you can recast your vote, since I guess you missed the intent of the question.

Yes, or no?

Let's not worry about what Israels neighbours want or think, what do you think?

It depends who you ask. There are many people who do not think that the USA has a right to exist.

I'm asking you about Israel. Feel free to start a thread about America.

Yes or no?

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The thread avoids the actual issue we need to ask and that is does Israel have the right to exist as a JEWISH state. The dettractors of Israel do not dispute it should exist, they dispute its right to be JEWISH.

The classic arguement against the right of Israel to exist as a JEWISH state can be found at:

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/03/abunimahs-justice-palestine#sthash.kXJZtKVq.dpuf

with the article, "Does Israel Have a Right to Exist as a Jewish State?" where you can find the relevant portion of Ali Abunimah’s ‘The Battle for Justice in Palestine’ arguement against a Jewish state.

I will now argue why Israel has the right to exist as a Jewish state with these sources:

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp507.htm

and

" National Rights of Jews” by Prof. Ruth Gavison

“From the Balfour Declaration to the Palestine Mandate” by Sir Martin Gilbert,

“Self-Determination and Israel’s Declaration of Independence” by Prof. Shlomo Avineri

“The United Nations and Middle East Refugees: The Differential Treatment of Arabs and Jews” by Dr. Stanley A. Urman

“Israel’s Rights Regarding Territories and the Settlements in the Eyes of the International Community” by Amb. Alan Baker

“The Historical and Legal Contexts of Israel’s Borders” by Prof. Nicholas Rostow

“The Misleading Interpretation of Security Council Resolution 242 (1967)” by Prof. Ruth Lapidoth

“Defending Israel’s Legal Rights to Jerusalem” by Amb. Dore Gold

“Palestinian Unilateralism and Israel’s Rights in Arab-Israeli Diplomacy” by Dan Diker

“Is the Gaza Strip Occupied by Israel?” by Col. (res.) Pnina Sharvit-Baruch

“The Violation of Israel’s Right to Sovereign Equality in the United Nations” by Amb. Alan Baker

“Countering Challenges to Israel’s Legitimacy” by Prof. Alan M. Dershowitz

all also referred to at:

http://jcpa.org/article/israels-rights-as-a-nation-state-in-international-diplomacy-introduction/

in the article,

"Israels Rights as a Nation State in International Diplomacy: Introduction The Jerusalem Center, September 18, 2011", Vol. 11, no.16.

Let's start with some given facts that can not be disputed and undone:

1-Israel today exists de facto as an existing Jewish state and so this notion it can be changed by terror, war, force so that the current Israeli Jewish citizens are forced to become a minority in a Sharia Muslim Israel state is not possible legally without violating existing laws and rights of Israeli Jews;

2-Muslims called Palestinians and other Muslims of the Middle East for religious reasons do not believe any Jewish state can exist because of their interpretation of Sharia law which insists on Muslim religious states that preclude Jews or other non Muslims from having their own states or legal rights equal to any Muslim;

3-Mr. Abbas has made it clear he will under no circumstance recognize Israel as a Jewish state as it precludes the return of self identified Palestinians who are defined as anyone who claims to be Palestinian as long as they are not Jewish;

4-further to 3, Mr. Abbas believes these self identified Palestinians should be given immediate legal rights of citizenship necessarily leading the tate to become majority Muslim which would then enable it to become a Sharia law state;

5-the arguement of Mr. Abbas is that he is not against Israel being a religious state provided it is a SHARIA LAW state-let us be crystal clear-Mr. Abbas wants and believes in a SHARIA LAW MUSLIM Israel not a non religious Israel-he has made this clear over and over again-he has also made clear time and time again that the approximately 125,000 ultra Orthodox Jews on the West Bank who do not recognize Israel as a Jewish state will never be allowed Palestinian citizenship;

6-the constitution of Hamas, ISIL, al Quaeda, Hezbollah call for a Muslim holy war to rid the Middle East and the world of Jews whether they are Israeli Jews or not; their constitutions envision a holy war to rid the world of Jews along the way to creating a one world Muslim state (caliphate) to be ruled by a Muslim clergy council and that central to this belief is that non Muslims will NOT have the same legal rights as Muslims in this state but will be considered dhimmi or inferiors;

7-that no state in the Middle East that is a Sharia law state today, allows Jews to own land and exercise the same legal rights as Muslims in those states and no Jew is allowed to become a citizen of any of these states;

8-that the Arab League of nations expelled 900,000 Jews in retaliation for Israel having been creating, forcing 700,000 of those to flee to Israel and whose descendants now live in Israel and fled their because of their being persecuted for being Jews, not Zionists;

9-that Jordan was illegally created-it was first defined as a temporary territory but then illegally turned into a state with a constitition referring to itself as a Palestinian state prohibiting Jews from entry as citizens or to live within its borders as citizens and this prohibition against Jews remains today as does to its legal reference to it being a Palestinian state;

10- Winston Churchill who unilaterally carved Jordan out of Palestinian to precluide it from being considered as part if a Jewish state announced publicly on March 28, 1921 that and I quote: “It is manifestly right that the Jews, who are scattered all over the world, should have a national center and a National Home where some of them may be reunited. And where else could that be but in the land of Palestine, with which for more than 3,000 years they have been intimately and profoundly associated?” ;

11-that on June 3, 1922, the British Government given the mandate to create a Jewish state in Palestine by the League of Nations but violated its mandate and never did, issued a White Paper, known as the Churchill White Paper, which stated and I quote: “During the last two or three generations the Jews have recreated in Palestine a community, now numbering 80,000….It is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on the sufferance. That is the reason why it is necessary that the existence of a Jewish National Home in Palestine should be internationally guaranteed, and that it should be formally recognized to rest upon ancient historic connection.” ;

12- that Churchill told the 1937 Palestine Royal Commission: “We committed ourselves to the idea that someday, somehow, far off in the future, subject to justice and economic convenience, there might well be a great Jewish State there, numbered by millions, far exceeding the present inhabitants of the country and to cut them off from that would be a wrong.”;

13-the above comments and position were then unilaterally abandon by Churchill who admits in his memoirs, that Britain lied, they in fact created Jrodan deliberately to head off a Jewish state, and never had any intention of allowing one as they had to placate their Arab allies who helped them defeat the Ottoman Empire during World War One and this was specifically why Prince Faisal's two sons were appointed kings of two created monarchies, Jordan and Iraq, countries carved out by the British while Faisal's remaining klan was later given Saudi Arabia, and other friends of Britain were given monarchies in what today is the UAE and Kuwait, while France under the Picot agreement were able to throw Faisal out of Damascus, Syria, and create two states, Syria and Lebanon;

14-that Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Kuwait, Yemen, Oman, Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Algerica, Morrocco, were all states created by the British and French while Israel came about in spite of Britain, France and Germany supporting their colonies in a war to prevent a Jewish state in 1949, after the League of Nations mandate ran out and there was still no Jewish state as promised by the League of nations;

cont. next post

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With the above 14 points established as context I then contend that:

a-it is illogical let alone but blatantly unfair to question Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state without using the same arguments to question the validity of the dozens of Muslim states or for that matter other world states that have emerged in the last half century based on similair principles as Israel was;

b-Israel has a law of return for Jews no different than over 125 other states have laws of expedited citizenship process for identified ethnics or nations, i.e., Japan, the Czech Republic, Eire (Ireland), Belgium, Lithuania, Ukraine, Estonia, Russia, China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Slovakia, Serbia, Croatia, and Jordan allowed automatic citizenship to anyone who identified as Palestinian until 1967 when it was nly ended after Arafat claiming to reperesent Palestinians, tried to assassinate King Hussein of Jordan and seize the country;

c-Israel's communal or state expression of its Jewish identify - is of no difference than that of many communal states around the world - just as England refers to itself as an Anglican state and does not discriminate against non Anglicans, Israel is the same. In fact Israel affords its non Jews the highest standard of living of any Muslim in the Middle East and a far higher standard of living and life expectancy than any Muslim or Jew in Muslim states; unlike Jews in Muslim countries, it allows Muslims all the rights Jews do not have in the Muslim countries, specifically, freedom of political expression, the right to own land, the right to sue the government, access to over 125 free legal organiations representing Muslim Human rights in Israel; access to a Supreme Court of Israel that has defended Muslim land titles; the right to be served in the same hospitals as Jews; the right to elect politicians in all levels of government;

d-while Israel as a state is not perfect, its treatment of non Jews legally defines and enforces their equality under the law and t political system and the legal cases they have won, the politicians they have elected, the articles they have written in the press criticizing Israeli government policies, are public fact;

e- the expression of a Jewish identity througfh national expression is not unique; indeed, most states identify in some formal way with the religious or cultural heritage of their predominant communities-the very existence of the sheer number of Muslim states in the Middle East is evidence of that;

f-Israel is the only state created as a Jewish state in the last century whose Jewish state legitimacy was recognized by both the League of Nations and the United Nations;

g-interestingly the League of Nations Mandate did not create the rights of the Jewish people to a national home in Palestine, but rather recognized a pre-existing right - for the links of the Jewish people to their historic land were well-known�and accepted by world leaders in the previous centur-so the attempt to revise or miserepresent or change actual history to suggest there were never any Jewish rights to a national home in Palestine is false;

h-it is a fact that by 1864, a clear-cut Jewish majority emerged in Jerusalem which was more than half a century before the arrival of the British Empire and the League of Nations Mandate;

i-as mentioned earlier Jewish national rights came about because the Arab League of nations unilaterally declared a war to rid the Middle East of Jews rather than accept two states, one Jewish, one Muslim-that is a fact; it is a fact that the Arab League nations were in fact colonial states created by the British and French and did not come about naturally, i.e., teh Arab League of nations were an extension of European imperialism while Israel consisted of jews fleeing persecution from the very colonial creators of these Arab League nations in Europe and these colonial inventions themselves;

j- the very struggle of Jews to create a country for Jews to escape to was in fact anti-colonial yet today anti Israelis ignorant of the origins of the arab League of Nations, depict these refugees from colonialism as the colonialists and ignore all arab League states were colonial creatiosn and in fact their armies in the war to rid the Middle East of Jews in 1948-49 were led by British generals, officers and air pilots as well as expatriot German Nazis;

k-here was no active movement to form a unique Palestinian state prior to 1967 and in fact it was only in 1956, Ahmad Shuqairy, who would found the PLO eight years later, told the UN Security Council: "it is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria.";

i-the use of Palestine as a description to mean a political state in fact only came about in 1967 after the failed Black Sabbath uprising at which time Arafat failed to seize Jordan-up until that failed coups, Arafat openly ridiculed as did all the Palestinian Liberation Organization leaders, terrorist cells and supporters the notion of a Palestinian state-they stated a vision of a pan Arab state consisting of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and what today is referred to as Israel, Gaza and the West Bank;

j-while Gaza city as a small fishing city, existing for centuries in no country, the Gaza strip as it is now called, was in fact created as an open air prison to keep Palestinians from entering Egypt to become citizens after they left Israel rather than live in a Jewish state;

h-the Palestinian Arabs who chose to stay in Israel today are its citizens;

i-those who chose to leave were imprisoned by the Arab League of Nations who openly declared they would be kept as hostages in camps as a visible symbol to the world that until Israel was disbanded as a JEWISH state, there they would remain;

j- the legal definition of a refugee is someone who themself was forced to leave one country and move to another, not their descendants born in the new country-however in the case of Palestinians, the UN passed a special refugee definition for them unlike any other refugees creating a blatant form of discrimination against other refugees including Jewish ones fleeing to Israel which states that ANYONE who identifies as a descendant of a Palestinian can call themselves one as long as they are not Jewish-this absurd definition provides no test other than subjective self identification;

k-the majority of people claiming to be descendants of Palestinians are not, they are in fact descendants of Arab Muslims or Christians from outside Palestine who moved to Palestine displacing Palestinian Muslims;

l-the absurd definition of Palestinian supposes that Muslim from outside Palestine who moves there is automatically a Palestinian deserving of a state, but if a Jew from outside Palestine moves there, they are not, a blatant inconsistency;

m-the call to wipe out Jews world-wide by Hamas, ISIL, al Quaeda, Hezbollah and the call to eradicate Israel by Iran all point to the need for a continuing Jewish state to safeguard the rights of Jews worldwide and prove a place of refuge;

cont. next post

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In conclusion with all the above arguments stated;

International law has traditionally held that in order to be defined as a state, political communities must meet four qualifications;

1-there must be a people;

2-there must be a territory;

3-there must be a government;

4-there must be a capacity to enter into relations with other states.

In regards to 1, there are a majority of people in Israel who are Jews;

In regards to 2, Israel's territory was de facto first created by the lines where the Arab League Army fled in 1949 after they could not wipe out the Jews and this border then changed again after Israel was attacked in 1967 by the Arab League of Nations and moved into the Golan Heights, the West Bank and Sinai to prevent further attacks; Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt pursuant to a peace treaty with egypt who promised in return not to attack Israel; to this day Syria remains in a declared state of war with Israel; Israel offered back the West Bank to Jordan for administration in the 1970's as part of a proposed peace deal but King Hussein stated he wished no part of the West Bank; to this day Israel does not define the West Bank as part of Israel but it continues to occupy it; it has placed settlers on the West Bank and there is an on-going legal dispute as to their status but even Israel concedes the mere installation of settlements can not in itself create an Israeli state on the West Bank and have repeated they would withdraw to safe borders as part of a peace treaty that would disarm Palestinian terrorists and recognize the right of Israel to be Jewish in return for Israel recognizing a state on the West Bank to be Muslim;

In regards to 3, the Knesset exists and functions.

In regards to 4, Israel has many states it engages in relations with and is a member of the UN.

It is in fact already a Jewish state.

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because in the post you made right before the one I quoted, you said:

Did you forget you'd just written that?

Or perhaps you were unaware that Israel is in a region called the Middle East. In that region, there is one democracy, and it is is pretty much surrounded by people who wish the people in Israel to be dead and gone.

So you can recast your vote, since I guess you missed the intent of the question.

Yes, or no?

Let's not worry about what Israels neighbours want or think, what do you think?

I think you missed the intent of my answers...

I'll refer back to one of my original points.

If the people IN, key word here being IN, the region wish to be a nation do they have the right to be a nation?

It doesn't matter what everyone around them thinks.

If the entirety of Vancouver Island wishes to be a nation and all of mainland BC wishes they were dead where they stand, do the people of Vancouver Island still have the right to be a nation?

If all of Quebec wishes to secede from Canada does it matter what anyone living in Ontario thinks?

By your logic, you seem to think so. My answer remains.

Both Israel and Palestine have a right to exist, because both have a majority in their respective regions that wish to be sovereign.

Furthermore and correct me if I'm wrong but don't the majority of people within both regions wish to broker a two-state deal? If I'm correct then this issue is no longer an issue of sovereignty, It's an issue of absolutely meaningless and pointless deep-seated religious hatred by all parties involved.

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What I think is the illustrative thing in this thread is that this forum actually has 2 people who admit to believing that Israel does not have the right to exist.

Of course...as no nation has the "right to exist" in the purest sense, including Israel. I cannot recall this existential qualification ever being proposed except when discussing Israel.

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