Canada's Involvement in Ukraine

[Remiel]

I'm thinking the debate is already happening , NATO is building up in the area.....Canada is looking at the next move....If Russia continues then what.....

In your opinion, Army Guy, has Afghanistan adequately hardened the core of the military for a fight in which they could quite possibly be taking as many casualties as they inflict?

[dre]

Who's this we you're talking about? If you don't like what's happening in Europe you go do something about it.

Hes not a doer, hes a couch watcher. He wouldnt fight Russians if they kicked down his own front door, never mind the Ukraine.

[Shady]

Who's this we you're talking about? If you don't like what's happening in Europe you go do something about it.

The main we is Russia and Ukraine. What am I going to do about it? Well, I listed a bunch of things in another thread, but it's doubtful that much of them will be followed. You see, believe it or not, but I don't hold a lot of power in the international community of foreign affairs. Can you believe that!

[Moonlight Graham]

I think it's in Canada's interests to keep a very close watch on Russia's movements in the Ukraine. It's not in our interests for Russia to invade and annex the territory of neighbouring countries.

There's little harm in at least showing our military presence in eastern europe with NATO. If sh!t hits the fan, we can always crawl away if Russia calls our bluff.

[Army Guy]

In your opinion, Army Guy, has Afghanistan adequately hardened the core of the military for a fight in which they could quite possibly be taking as many casualties as they inflict?

I think our training and experience in Afghanistan has helped alot , meaning producing Combat vets, but very little in the way of high intensity warfare, Canadian Armed forces have concentrated on insurgent warfare for the last 12 years or so, and we are just getting back to high intensity warfare....Both are extremily different beasts...On the training side....

On the equipment side once again we are geared for Insurgent warfare, nothing more...If canadian forces got involved with the russians on the battle field it would be a short battle....

[eyeball]

I think it's in Canada's interests to keep a very close watch on Russia's movements in the Ukraine. It's not in our interests for Russia to invade and annex the territory of neighbouring countries.

There's little harm in at least showing our military presence in eastern europe with NATO. If sh!t hits the fan, we can always crawl away if Russia calls our bluff.

It is in no one's interest when a country illegally invades another.

There is great harm when we militarily support allies who do. When the shit hits the fan we'll have no one to blame but ourselves for being caught in the splatter.

Edited May 6, 2014 by eyeball

[PIK]

What we do is call his bluff. IMO His army is not well trained or equipt as they used to be and he would be going up against NATO armies that are now battle hardened , not just a bunch of peace keepers.

[dre]

Why are we implementing the Powell doctrine? What about the Bush doctrine or the Monroe doctrine?

What about the "stop wasting my @#$%ing money killing people I dont know or care about" doctrine. I pay more in income tax than you even make, and I dont want to spend a single penny on this or Asscrackistan or Conflict Holy Land DIrt Farm, anything else. Spend the money on stuff that directly benefits Canadians or stop stripping me of it.

Whats going on in the Ukraine is basically a civil war between Ukrainians. Never mind the fact that we are in no real position to dictate the outcome, Canadians and their politicians dont even know enough to pick a side. Same crap as syria.

If you wanna get involved then get your checkbook out and send some money to whoever you want. Or get off your ass and go volunteer. DO something besides yammering away on some half-dead web forum.

[dre]

What we do is call his bluff. IMO His army is not well trained or equipt as they used to be and he would be going up against NATO armies that are now battle hardened , not just a bunch of peace keepers.

Nato is the ultimate paper tiger. Battle hardened my ass. Even the countries that committed troops in places like Afghanistan demanded they be kept out of harms way.

And why call any bluff? We arent even at the poker table.

Nato countries have not gone to war with a formidable military opponent since World War Two.

Edited May 6, 2014 by dre

[PIK]

Nato is the ultimate paper tiger. Battle hardened my ass. Even the countries that committed troops in places like Afghanistan demanded they be kept out of harms way.

And why call any bluff? We arent even at the poker table.

Nato countries have not gone to war with a formidable military opponent since World War Two.

But this is the time for NATO to step up to the plate. And yes battled hardened troops, as in canadian, british, american and others that did some fighting in iraq and afghanistan and not hiding behind everyone else. This is the only time since korea that they had battle hardened troops to pick from. Now UN peacekeeping is the paper tiger. NATO just needs proper leadership to stop this slow crawl like invasion that putin is up to.

[Shady]

What about the "stop wasting my @#$%ing money killing people I dont know or care about" doctrine.

That's fine, but we're not killing anybody in Ukraine. And no, it's not a civil war. It's an underhanded land grab perpetuated by Vladimir Putin.

[Wilber]

That's fine, but we're not killing anybody in Ukraine. And no, it's not a civil war. It's an underhanded land grab perpetuated by Vladimir Putin.

I think it is both. There is no denying there are big ethnic differences in Ukraine which would be an issue even without Russian involvement. Putin is using them to advance Russian interests in the region.

[Moonlight Graham]

Whats going on in the Ukraine is basically a civil war between Ukrainians.

No it isn't. The Russians got involved, invaded the Ukraine, and annexed it following an illegal referendum (Russian troops occupying Crimea throughout the referendum. It's clearly not just an internal matter within the Ukraine, it's an international matter.

[Smallc]

Exactly. It's pretty misleading to pretend this is the west trying to get involved in an internal matter.

[Remiel]

Everyone has a stake in the rules of war that are being broken. They are the original MAD.

[dre]

That's fine, but we're not killing anybody in Ukraine. And no, it's not a civil war. It's an underhanded land grab perpetuated by Vladimir Putin.

A civil war is exactly what it is. You have separatists and pro Ukrainian people starting to clash on the street now. And its going to get worse. Putting Canadian or western troops on the ground there would be a horrendous act of stupidity. And thats exactly why it isnt going to happen.

As for the pro Russian regions in the Ukraine... They are going to separate and theres not a damn thing we can about it.

[Shady]

A civil war is exactly what it is. You have separatists and pro Ukrainian people starting to clash on the street now. And its going to get worse. Putting Canadian or western troops on the ground there would be a horrendous act of stupidity. And thats exactly why it isnt going to happen.

As for the pro Russian regions in the Ukraine... They are going to separate and theres not a damn thing we can about it.

Nobody is suggesting that Canadian or western troops should be on the ground there. Also, the separatists are comprised of Russian secret service agents. The whole orgin of the Ukrainian crisis connects directly back to Putin. I still can't believe people like you are making excuses for him. It's deplorable.

[dre]

No it isn't. The Russians got involved, invaded the Ukraine, and annexed it following an illegal referendum (Russian troops occupying Crimea throughout the referendum. It's clearly not just an internal matter within the Ukraine, it's an international matter.

Thats not whats happening in eastern Ukraine at all.

And regardless of how this started the reality is that pro-russians are feeling increasingly alienated and the government is basically treating them as terrorists. It IS an internal problem now. And the reality is theres nothing we SHOULD do, and theres nothing we CAN do.

And Russia did not "Annex the Ukraine". Crimea was basically its own state with its own elected government. It should never have been part of the Ukraine in the first place.

Edited May 6, 2014 by dre

[dre]

Nobody is suggesting that Canadian or western troops should be on the ground there. Also, the separatists are comprised of Russian secret service agents. The whole orgin of the Ukrainian crisis connects directly back to Putin. I still can't believe people like you are making excuses for him. It's deplorable.

Im not making excuses for him. Youre trying to evaluate things I write, but the problem is you cant even read at an elementary school level. Youre also making a stupid assumption when you claim that all of the pro-russian Ukrainians are KGB agents. Just more cold war fantasy garbage.

Its deplorable that you would even participate in an online forum when you cant think or read or write.

[WWWTT]

If a full war breaks out (as it is looking more and more like that) we will get dragged into it. Our NATO commitments might be protecting NATO countries from an overflow of violence from Ukraine. But then that still puts us in direct conflict with Russia on the whole.

It is a waste of time money and our troops.

Agreed!

If this becomes reality, it will be another case where Canadian troops go to war for our government, not Canadian people!

WWWTT

[WWWTT]

My point is that Canadians are ready to protect their country with their own and their children's lives. But it has been a long time since we have been consulted as to the need to go to any particular war. If the majority of Canadians are convinced that the cause is just, the conflict inevitable and the costs (both financial and in lives) acceptable then we volunteer and/or send our children out to fight.

There has never been an Canadian referendum on going to war.

Therefore, it has always been a government decision, never one by the peoples.

WWWTT

[Natchuck]

Canada should NOT have any military involvement in this mess.

[Moonlight Graham]

Thats not whats happening in eastern Ukraine at all.

And Russia did not "Annex the Ukraine". Crimea was basically its own state with its own elected government. It should never have been part of the Ukraine in the first place.

Go find me a 2013 world map that shows Crimea as its own country and not a part of Ukraine. Also, as far as I know, the correct term to use when another country adds an outside country or territory to it's own territory is "annex".

Kiev (CNN) -- Russia's lower house of parliament overwhelmingly approved a treaty Thursday to annex the Black Sea peninsula of Crimea from Ukraine...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/20/world/europe/ukraine-crisis/

Also, Crimea was a part of Ukraine, and was not its own sovereign country:

In 1998, a new Crimean constitution was adopted, which stipulated that Crimea would operate as an autonomous republic but would not have sovereignty.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116915/11-essential-questions-about-crimea-answered

I don't see how what I said before is inaccurate. Russia's militarily invaded another sovereign country, occupied it, remained there during a referendum which decided to join Russia or remain with Ukraine. I'm not sure if Crimea asked for Russia's military to enter the regio or not, but Ukraine certainly didn't, which I would think makes it an invasion of Ukraine, or at least breaking the Ukraine-Russia legal agreement:

Under the agreement governing the presence of the fleet in Crimea, the Russians must co-ordinate all troop movements outside the fleet's base areas with the Ukrainian authorities beforehand.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26397323

Edited May 7, 2014 by Moonlight Graham

[bjre]

Go find me a 2013 world map that shows Crimea as its own country and not a part of Ukraine. Also, as far as I know, the correct term to use when another country adds an outside country or territory to it's own territory is "annex".

How about Hawaii, Texas, British Columbia? Weren't those be "annex"ed?

I don't see how what I said before is inaccurate. Russia's militarily invaded another sovereign country, occupied it, remained there during a referendum which decided to join Russia or remain with Ukraine. I'm not sure if Crimea asked for Russia's military to enter the regio or not, but Ukraine certainly didn't, which I would think makes it an invasion of Ukraine, or at least breaking the Ukraine-Russia legal agreement:

How did US did in Iraq and Afganistan when they "vote"? Did US Army left?

Did Russian Army said anyone don't vote or vote different, they will shoot them?

How many people dead up to now in Crimea?

Are you suggesting that for the "freedom" of the people of Crimea, you need let lots of them lost the right of living in a war, and with Canadian young people's lives.

<QUOTE> Kiev (CNN) -- </QUOTE> ....

Westen propergada machines regulaly tells lies to make people fight people in other countries so that US can find a reason to found more millitary base there.

What US want is to become the dictator of the world. When that day come, people of all world will suffer more by pay even more tax dollars, and more higher food prices, house prices.

Think about the debt US now suffering, the time when US rule the whole world, and no one can challenge it, it will be able to do whatever it want to make you suffer more. if you like to change it, just think about G20, you will not able to change anything.

[eyeball]

Keep the hyperbole handy.

Ukraine: Russian simulation of nuclear strike fuels tensions

Story

"Well boys, ah reckon this is it, noo-ku-lar combat toe to toe with the Russkies..."

I suspect the various poor long suffering proxies the super-duper powers have typically used when taking their frustrations out on each other will be just as happy to see them go at it directly for a change.