Ontario hydro rates

[Topaz]

I think this is going to become the top topic in the next election in Ontario, more than jobs I think or at least tied with jobs. I'm not sure what the NDP and Tories are going to do with this but this higher hydro cost and it can't over yet, we still have the cost of MOVING those gas plants yet to come. I wonder of those areas that wanted them gone, regret opening their mouths to move them? The downside of higher hydro rates for homeowners is huge and my neighbour told me they are a budget with Hydro One and in November, that when you pay the outstanding amount and for them is was $156. more than the 200.00 they already pay monthly on the budget method, so they paid 50.00 of the 156.00 and would pay the rest in December because they are on a pension and they also had to pay property taxes at the same time. Hydro One told them, if they didn't pay the whole amount, it would go to a collection agency! Wow, only on month late, even cell phone companies give one more time. I couldn't believe, but maybe people are having problems paying their high hydro bills but still give people a chance.

[brian66]

Businesses need to start speaking out publicly and to their employees about the rising hydro costs. There will be many more Heinz, Kelloggs who rely on energy who will close up. Just as business spoke up in the 80s over free trade, they need to speak out on what is happening in Ontario. Found this letter from Ottawa businesses trying to highlight the crisis over hydro rates.

http://looniepolitics.com/letter-ontario-premier-business-regarding-hydro-rates/

[PIK]

On the radio today the read out some of the abuses. 1- One employee sold his home for 350g profit and bought a 1.3 million dollar home in another ONT community, they gave him 350g's to move. 2- Another one moved to another ONT community, but rented instead and asked for rental assitance, he recieved 140g's for one yrs rent . What is it going to take to get people fired up. And who here is still willing to vote lib in the next election.

[Boges]

The revelations from the OPG from the Auditor General are a complete embarrassment for this government.

Yet another provincial agency full of scandals and corruption.

[ironstone]

Billions of taxpayer dollars are being spent on wind and solar projects that cannot produce power on demand.How does this make sense?

[ironstone]

The revelations from the OPG from the Auditor General are a complete embarrassment for this government.

Yet another provincial agency full of scandals and corruption.

I have no doubt that everything that has been going on at OPG has had the blessing of McGuinty/Wynne and now Bob Chiarelli.Only when these facts became public knowledge did some Ontario Liberals pretend to be outraged.

[Bob Macadoo]

"What" has been going on @ OPG exactly that you find to be outrageous? Truth be told they have behaved like any other private corporation trying to short sell their future because it is subject to collective bargaining.

I have no doubt that everything that has been going on at OPG has had the blessing of McGuinty/Wynne and now Bob Chiarelli.Only when these facts became public knowledge did some Ontario Liberals pretend to be outraged.

[August1991]

I haven't read through this thread but I note that Norwegians pay about 25 cents per kwh despite Norway having amongst the cheapest hydro resources on the planet - and depending on hydro for about 90% of its electricity.

Norwegians are smart but Ontarians (and Quebecers) are stupid. IOW, it is foolish to waste at home through a low domestic price a valuable resource that foreigners will pay a high price to have.

Selling Canadian electricity in Canada at a low price is like forcing Sidney Crosby to play for a junior team and a home crowd in Halifax at $50,000 a year. It would be a waste of a talent.

Edited December 24, 2013 by August1991

[Bob Macadoo]

IOW, it is foolish to waste at home through a low domestic price a valuable resource that foreigners will pay a high price to have.Selling Canadian electricity in Canada at a low price is like forcing Sidney Crosby to play for a junior team and a home crowd in Halifax at $50,000 a year. It would be a waste of a talent.

That's heresy. You can't not provide highly subsidized power to the masses then allow yourself to be kicked in the political balls whichever way the wind blows. Its a canadian tradition. How do you expect to get elected if you can't exploit the power grid.

[ironstone]

"What" has been going on @ OPG exactly that you find to be outrageous? Truth be told they have behaved like any other private corporation trying to short sell their future because it is subject to collective bargaining.

To the best of my knowledge,OPG is not a private corporation,it is a government(taxpayer) owned utility.The heads of private sector corporations do have the right to pay themselves admittedly outrageous salaries because they are in fact,private companies.

OPG management has badly bungled the job by their actions,cutting lower management while drastically increasing their own ranks and pay and perks.

Oh wait!Things may actually get worse for Ontario very soon.Liberal Premier Wynne will get her 5-10cent per litre gas tax increase and in a few years if the great Justin Trudeau becomes Prime Minister,we will all likely be hit with a huge carbon tax of some sort.You think Ontario is hurting now?Just wait...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opg-fires-3-executives-after-auditor-general-s-report-1.2458723

[Argus]

Norwegians are smart but Ontarians (and Quebecers) are stupid. IOW, it is foolish to waste at home through a low domestic price a valuable resource that foreigners will pay a high price to have.

Ontario lost $1 billion selling excess power to the US last year.

[Shady]

Ontario lost $1 billion selling excess power to the US last year.

Then they should be charging more for excess power. it's not rocket science.

[bush_cheney2004]

Then they should be charging more for excess power. it's not rocket science.

Ontario screwed itself to worship at the Green Alter, transforming a huge energy advantage to a market liability. Amazing.....

[Shady]

Ontario screwed itself to worship at the Green Alter, transforming a huge energy advantage to a market liability. Amazing.....

Unfortunately you're right. it's amazing how totally and completely incompetent government is at running what are essentially monopolies. This, and the post office are great examples. It' s pathetic and maddening.

[Argus]

Then they should be charging more for excess power. it's not rocket science.

Their problem is the excess power is not predictable. If it was predictable they could enter into a contract to sell electricity to others, say northeastern US states, at a given price. But the excess power is a result of their unreliable production assets, like wind power and solar power, as well as the standby gas generators needed in case they don't produce. When they suddenly have too much power they have to dump it, now, today, and that need doesn't get you very good prices because chances are neighboring areas don't really need excess power suddenly, now, today.

[Bob Macadoo]

To the best of my knowledge,OPG is not a private corporation,it is a government(taxpayer) owned utility.The heads of private sector corporations do have the right to pay themselves admittedly outrageous salaries because they are in fact,private companies.

OPG management has badly bungled the job by their actions,cutting lower management while drastically increasing their own ranks and pay and perks.

Oh wait!Things may actually get worse for Ontario very soon.Liberal Premier Wynne will get her 5-10cent per litre gas tax increase and in a few years if the great Justin Trudeau becomes Prime Minister,we will all likely be hit with a huge carbon tax of some sort.You think Ontario is hurting now?Just wait...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opg-fires-3-executives-after-auditor-general-s-report-1.2458723

OPG is a private corporation with (1) shareholder, the ON gov't, however this shareholder makes more managerial decisions than any equity holder I know. In fact in the last (2) years they have increased their lower management while depleting their workforce, like other nearsighted corporations; none left to do the work just bobbleheads to talk about doing the work.

This mess was a decade in the making, started by Harris and ignored by Mcguinty like he did all the other power divisions created in the Eves/Flaherty foolishness.

Ontario lost $1 billion selling excess power to the US last year.

You mean giving and we even pay delivery. More nearsightedness, being right-sized like other corporations.

[August1991]

Their problem is the excess power is not predictable.

Argus, there are many ways to "export" electricity. Aluminium, for example, is electricity in tangible form.

[ironstone]

All of Ontario's electricity problems were a long time in the making.The former Ontario Hydro managed to rack up a massive debt despite having a monopoly in the market.Unfortunately I can't see things improving any time soon.The Green Energy Act is quite bluntly,idiotic.Wind and solar projects will not meet our energy needs and will in fact make the problem worse.We in Ontario should get used to the fact that we have become a have-not province under the McGuinty/Wynne Liberals.

[Bob Macadoo]

All of Ontario's electricity problems were a long time in the making.The former Ontario Hydro managed to rack up a massive debt despite having a monopoly in the market.Unfortunately I can't see things improving any time soon.

The debt is the result of gov't with their hand in the cookie jar, not managerial idiocy. They took the "black" out of the books and cleared the provincial deficits for elections. Your billed retirement charge was bred from accounting malfeasance.

The aim of wind/solar cannot be achieved by private market upload. It requires widespread, diverse infrastructure across multiple provinces that no capital firm will back. Its feasible if its collective, not every windmill for themself, which is how its been set-up now. The ROR required by private capital on the front end is too high to be economical.

[ironstone]

The debt is the result of gov't with their hand in the cookie jar, not managerial idiocy. They took the "black" out of the books and cleared the provincial deficits for elections. Your billed retirement charge was bred from accounting malfeasance.

The aim of wind/solar cannot be achieved by private market upload. It requires widespread, diverse infrastructure across multiple provinces that no capital firm will back. Its feasible if its collective, not every windmill for themself, which is how its been set-up now. The ROR required by private capital on the front end is too high to be economical.

You admit that wind/solar projects are not sustainable without massive subsidies from the taxpayer.These projects will supply electricity.....weather permitting of course.

Ontario Hydro had a debt of $19.5 billion dollars in 1998 when they had a monopoly.And you don't blame Ontario Hydro's managers for any of it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Hydro

[Bob Macadoo]

You admit that wind/solar projects are not sustainable without massive subsidies from the taxpayer.These projects will supply electricity.....weather permitting of course.

Ontario Hydro had a debt of $19.5 billion dollars in 1998 when they had a monopoly.And you don't blame Ontario Hydro's managers for any of it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontario_Hydro

Yes, it is established that most, if not all, effective power grid infrastructure can only be developed by public intervention. Private one-offs serve nothing but to detract from the benefit and are a distracting sideshow to the "real" provider.

That debt is an accounting sleight of hand. OH was not allowed to pay down its individual debt pre-1998 but the Harris gov't decided to come collecting then and decided that it wanted payment in full. The trick was with such a high debt load, OPG couldn't borrow on the open market and its market share would disappear and could be sold off for a bag of beans. What they didn't account for was that the private market wasn't coming to hang their shingle and OPG was left to hold the grid up (by surpressing market price). Then Mcguinty had no idea what to do and let it fester until what you see today.

[August1991]

We in Ontario should get used to the fact that we have become a have-not province under the McGuinty/Wynne Liberals.

We in Canada should get used to the fact that we have enormous energy resources and we should not waste them at home.

Instead, all Canadians should pay retail world prices for our resources. It is foolish to sell cheaply at home a resource valued highly on the world market. We should do as progressive Norway. Canadians should pay 20 cents for a peak kwh and $2 for a litre of gasoline. (I invent rough world numbers.)

That is how the world values our resources. Should we value ourselves less?

Edited January 7, 2014 by August1991

[TimG]

Yes, it is established that most, if not all, effective power grid infrastructure can only be developed by public intervention. Private one-offs serve nothing but to detract from the benefit and are a distracting sideshow to the "real" provider.

The trouble with wind and solar is the can't supply power on demand which means fossil fuel plants must be built to provide close to 100% backup for the wind and solar. This means that any grid with wind and solar will take at least twice as much capital to build. On top of that, these fossil fuel backups need to run fairly regularly to pay for themselves - if they are forced to shut down constantly because they are preempted by wind/solar then these plants have to charge a lot more for their power to break even.

There is no scenario where people are economically better off with wind/solar as part of the mix. They are an unnecessary burden on rate payers and it makes no difference if the government is involved.

Edited January 7, 2014 by TimG

[waldo]

The trouble with wind and solar is the can't supply power on demand which means fossil fuel plants must be built to provide close to 100% backup for the wind and solar. This means that any grid with wind and solar will take at least twice as much capital to build. On top of that, these fossil fuel backups need to run fairly regularly to pay for themselves - if they are forced to shut down constantly because they are preempted by wind/solar then these plants have to charge a lot more for their power to break even.

There is no scenario where people are economically better off with wind/solar as part of the mix. They are an unnecessary burden on rate payers and it makes no difference if the government is involved.

that's quite a load you just dropped! Through an assortment of various MLW threads, most of the following points have been covered, repeatedly covered:

- from a recent 'wind and solar integration' study from the NREL, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory of the U.S. Department of Energy... a 35% integration level can be realized with little infrastructure change:

Key Findings

- The integration of 35% wind and solar energy into the electric power system will not require extensive infrastructure if changes are made to operational practices.

- Wind and solar energy displace fossil fuels. A 35% penetration of solar and wind power would reduce fuel costs by 40% and carbon emissions by 25%–45%—the rough equivalent of taking 22–36 million cars off the road—compared to today's system.

- Increasing the size of the geographic area over which the wind and solar resources are drawn substantially reduces variability.

- Scheduling generation and interchanges sub-hourly reduces the need for fast reserves.

- Using wind and solar forecasts in utility operations reduces operating costs by up to 14%.

- Existing transmission capacity can be better used. This will reduce new transmission needs.

- Demand response programs can provide flexibility that enables the electric power system to more easily integrate wind and solar—and may be cheaper than alternatives.

.

[bush_cheney2004]

- from a recent 'wind and solar integration' study from the NREL, the National Renewable Energy Laboratory of the U.S. Department of Energy... a 35% integration level can be realized with little infrastructure change:

Interesting...the USA's DoE NREL didn't seem to focus on Canada so much...for instance:

....New transmission to Canada and Mexico was not considered in the transmission build-out.

Most results presented are focused on the generators and loads within the U.S. portion of the Western Interconnection

Canada and Mexico would be the white portions of the offshore wind energy map graphic below.

Edited January 7, 2014 by bush_cheney2004