The US, gun violence, and gun control

[Moonlight Graham]

Read this article by Fareed Zakaria after the Colorado movie theater shootings in July, but it's still applicable given the recent Connecticut school shooting:

Time to Face Facts on Gun Control

Most of the pundits have concluded that the main cause of this calamity [in Colorado] is the dark, strange behavior of the gunman. David Brooks, explains that this is a problem of psychology, not sociology. But really, it’s questionable analysis. Think about this: are there more lonely people in America compared with other countries? Are there, say, fewer depressed people in Asia and Europe? So why do they all have so much less gun violence than we do?

The United States stands out from the rest of the world not because it has more nutcases – I think we can assume that those people are sprinkled throughout every society equally –but because it has more guns.

In fact, the last global Small Arms Survey showed there are 88 guns for every 100 Americans. Yemen is second at 54. Serbia and Iraq are among the other countries in the top 10. The U.S has three gun homicides per 100,000 people. That’s four times as many as Switzerland, ten times as many as India, 20 times as many as Australia and England. Whatever you think of gun rights and gun control, the numbers don’t flatter America.

I saw an interesting graph... a spectrum shows the number of gun-related deaths by state. Now if you add one more piece of data – gun control restrictions – you see that the states with at least one firearm law (such as an assault weapons ban or trigger locks) tend to be the states with fewer gun-related deaths. Conclusion? Well, there are lots of factors involved, but there is at least a correlation between tighter laws and fewer gun-related deaths.

The U.S. is actually getting safer. In the decade since the year 2000, violent crime rates fell by 20 percent; aggravated assault by 22 percent; motor vehicle theft by 42 percent; murder – by all weapons – by 13 percent.

But...gun homicide rates haven’t improved at all. They were at roughly the same levels in 2009 as they were in 2000. Meanwhile, serious but non-fatal gun injuries caused during assault have actually increased in the last decade by 20 percent, as guns laws have gotten looser and getting automatic weapons has become easier.

We are the world’s most heavily-armed civilian population. One out of every three Americans knows someone who has been shot. Everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion, but not to his or her own facts. We cannot change the tortured psychology of madmen like James Holmes. What we can do is change our gun laws.

full article: http://globalpublics...on-gun-control/

Edited December 15, 2012 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

What do you think of this argument? It's alarming to me the number of guns Americans have. There are an estimated 270 million guns in the hands of civilians in the United States. "More guns, less restrictions" is obviously not making the US a safer place with less gun violence.

Btw, Canada has about 30 guns per 100 people compared to 88/100 in the US.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Moonlight Graham

[cybercoma]

And Derek L raging about FREEEEDOM! in 3... 2....1.....

[Guest]

One thing's for sure. If there are 270 million guns in the US, gun control isn't an option.

[bush_cheney2004]

The U.S., despite having a very high rate of legal and illegal gun ownership, does not rank highest in gun related homicides per capita. Also, the majority of firearms homicides are acts of suicide.

...According to the U.N., the U.S. had 3.0 firearm homicides per 100,000 in population in 2009. But there were 14 other nations that had higher rates in 2009, primarily in Latin America and the Caribbean: Honduras (57.6), Jamaica (47.2), St. Kitts and Nevis (44.4), Venezuela (39.0), Guatemala (38.5), Colombia (28.1), Trinidad & Tobago (27.3), Panama (19.3), Dominican Republic (16.9), Bahamas (15.4), Belize (15.4), Mexico (7.9), Paraguay (7.3) and Nicaragua (5.9). Three other nations had higher rates in 2008: El Salvador (39.9), Brazil (18.1) and Ecuador (12.7).

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/23/facebook-posts/the-us-is-no-in-gun-violence-is-it/

[Sleipnir]

What do you think of this argument?

Shooting in U.S schools will become normal events in the future, that's what I think.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Sleipnir

[Guest Derek L]

And Derek L raging about FREEEEDOM! in 3... 2....1.....

How would an American LGR have prevented this tragedy?

[WIP]

The U.S., despite having a very high rate of legal and illegal gun ownership, does not rank highest in gun related homicides per capita. Also, the majority of firearms homicides are acts of suicide.

...According to the U.N., the U.S. had 3.0 firearm homicides per 100,000 in population in 2009. But there were 14 other nations that had higher rates in 2009, primarily in Latin America and the Caribbean: Honduras (57.6), Jamaica (47.2), St. Kitts and Nevis (44.4), Venezuela (39.0), Guatemala (38.5), Colombia (28.1), Trinidad & Tobago (27.3), Panama (19.3), Dominican Republic (16.9), Bahamas (15.4), Belize (15.4), Mexico (7.9), Paraguay (7.3) and Nicaragua (5.9). Three other nations had higher rates in 2008: El Salvador (39.9), Brazil (18.1) and Ecuador (12.7).

http://www.politifac...violence-is-it/

Why not tell the whole story. Most of those countries with higher per capita murder rates than the U.S., have this result because of your War On Drugs, that provides the drug cartels with the money to buy lots of American guns and use them in their battles with other gangs and government forces.

[Guest American Woman]

The U.S., despite having a very high rate of legal and illegal gun ownership, does not rank highest in gun related homicides per capita. Also, the majority of firearms homicides are acts of suicide.

Some people like to ignore everything else and just blame it all on our gun ownership laws. 'If only we had stricter gun laws, this wouldn't have happened' - even though the woman in question likely would have had legal possession of her handguns if she lived in Canada. There's absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. Evidently, since we aren't Canada, we will never be able to do things The Right Way. (And ironically, I thought this was an Ugly American trait.)

[betsy]

They say that copycats account some of the mass killings. Imho, it is not the lack of gun control that encourages a lot of these loonies from doing these kind of senseless killings. It is actually the, MEDIA!

Yesterday, all the channels were just so focused on the minute-by-minute update way into the night! How devastating it is. How so chilling and horrific it is. How the whole nation suffers for it. WE ALL KNOW THAT! We know how devastating, chilling and horrific it is!

Then they went on the nationwide vigil going on for it! Last I tuned on the news this morning, they're talking about Texas doing a vigil - with coverage of Texan mourners!

If you are copycat bent on being remembered for a heinous crime - wouldn't you be spurred to try to out-do the latest sensation? WOW! Look at all that attention! Even the president is visibly shaken! Hah! I'll go down in history!

Edited December 15, 2012 by betsy

[Moonlight Graham]

Some people like to ignore everything else and just blame it all on our gun ownership laws. 'If only we had stricter gun laws, this wouldn't have happened' - even though the woman in question likely would have had legal possession of her handguns if she lived in Canada.

Was this gun stored in a locked cabinet and/or with a trigger lock? What about the ammo?

Why are handguns even legal? Why does a person need to own a machine that is designed to kill other human beings? Some of it has to be that so many Americans have guns that it compels people who normally wouldn't want to own a gun to feel the need to buy one just to feel safe and even the playing field. Like a civilian "security dilemma".

I'm not blaming everything on gun laws, the US also has a demented gun-loving culture that compels them to want to own them.

BTW, as per the quote of BC, a suicide isn't a homicide, and those stats aren't calculated into homicide stats. But US suicides via guns are extremely high as well, 5.75 per 100k people, compared to the UK which is 0.16 per 100k. Not sure it matters in the end, as Canada and the US have about equal suicide rates overall.

[Guest American Woman]

Was this gun stored in a locked cabinet and/or with a trigger lock? What about the ammo?

What does that have to do with stricter gun laws?

Why are handguns even legal?

Why are they legal in Canada?

Why does a person need to own a machine that is designed to kill other human beings? Some of it has to be that so many Americans have guns that it compels people who normally wouldn't want to own a gun to feel the need to buy one just to feel safe and even the playing field. Like a civilian "security dilemma".

I've read of people in Canada who feel the opposite - they feel the need to go out and buy one to protect themselves knowing that would-be criminals likely aren't worried that they have a gun, and are therefore more bold.

I'm not blaming everything on gun laws, the US also has a demented gun-loving culture that compels them to want to own them.

That's a matter of opinion, and likely one based on stereotype rather than any real knowledge of "Americans."

As I said, our gun laws likely had no effect in regards to this situation. The gun owner would just as likely have been a gun owner in Canada, and if this gunman were Canadian instead of American, this tragedy likely would have been a Canadian tragedy.

[Black Dog]

Some people like to ignore everything else and just blame it all on our gun ownership laws. 'If only we had stricter gun laws, this wouldn't have happened' - even though the woman in question likely would have had legal possession of her handguns if she lived in Canada. There's absolutely no reason to believe otherwise. Evidently, since we aren't Canada, we will never be able to do things The Right Way. (And ironically, I thought this was an Ugly American trait.)

Odd how Canadians and citizens of other western democracies have some access to firearms including handguns, but don't have nearly the same issues when it comes to gun violence. When shootings occur in these other societies, it's an aberration. For you, it's business as usual. So either the relative lack of gun control in the U.S. is contributing to the high numbers of gun deaths or there's something unique and savage about you Americans that makes you more prone to killing each other with guns than most everyone else in the west. Pick your poison.

[Guest American Woman]

Odd how Canadians and citizens of other western democracies have some access to firearms including handguns, but don't have nearly the same issues when it comes to gun violence.

Odd how Canada and other western democracies aren't the U.S. yet the U.S. is always compared to them.

When shootings occur in these other societies, it's an aberration. For you, it's business as usual. So either the relative lack of gun control in the U.S. is contributing to the high numbers of gun deaths or there's something unique and savage about you Americans

Of course. Anything "unique" about the U.S. - and there are many things that are unique to the U.S. vs. the countries you refer to - has to be "savage."

Good Lord.

Edited December 15, 2012 by American Woman

[Smallc]

This difference is either savage, or pathetic. Take your pick.

[GostHacked]

What does that have to do with stricter gun laws?

Gun laws in Canada require safe and proper storage on one's property.

My father had a shotgun and a couple hunting rifles. These were stored in a locked hardened cabinet. The guns all had trigger locks that required a key.The ammunition is stored in another locked up box inside the cabinet. My father ended up getting rid of all his guns because some of these restrictions just did not make any sense and are meant to frustrate competent and responsible gun owners.

Handguns are also legal in Canada. But quite restricted. When me and my friend head out to the range, he is able to transport his rifles and shotguns without issue. But he cannot do that for a handgun unless certain measures and conditions are met. His firearms are also locked up in a hardened cabinet secured to the floor, trigger locks and locked ammo boxes.

As I said, our gun laws likely had no effect in regards to this situation. The gun owner would just as likely have been a gun owner in Canada, and if this gunman were Canadian instead of American, this tragedy likely would have been a Canadian tragedy.

However none of these restrictions make a lick of difference if someone is mentally unstable or has the determination to kill someone. And that is where the focus needs to be, why do people do this in the first place?

[Smallc]

Handguns are also legal in Canada. But quite restricted. When me and my friend head out to the range, he is able to transport his rifles and shotguns without issue. But he cannot do that for a handgun unless certain measures and conditions are met.

Actually, it is now just as easy to transport handguns. It is a recent legal change.

[Moonlight Graham]

What does that have to do with stricter gun laws?

See Ghosthacked's response above.

Why are they legal in Canada?

Exactly. Why are they?

That's a matter of opinion, and likely one based on stereotype rather than any real knowledge of "Americans."

A completely correct opinion based on logic. 88 guns per 100 citizens. Scoreboard.

As I said, our gun laws likely had no effect in regards to this situation. The gun owner would just as likely have been a gun owner in Canada, and if this gunman were Canadian instead of American, this tragedy likely would have been a Canadian tragedy.

Had handguns been illegal, there's a decent chance this shooting may not have occurred. But I don't know the story about the longer gun that was found in his car.

Yes this shooting could have happened in Canada, and similar ones have.

So what do you think could have prevented this shooting? I'm not saying gun laws are the entire solution, but it's a start.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Moonlight Graham

[Guest American Woman]

Had handguns been illegal, there's a decent chance this shooting may not have occurred. But I don't know the story about the longer gun that was found in his car.

I'm not getting your point. There's a difference between "banning guns" altogether and "stricter gun laws," which seems to be the direction the conversation was taking. Unless one is a proponent of banning guns altogether, I don't see where the "perhaps with stricter gun laws this wouldn't have happened" applies," which has been my point. That being the case, I would appreciate it if you would clarify your stand for me.

Yes this shooting could have happened in Canada, and similar ones have.

So what do you think could have prevented this shooting?

The only thing I think could have prevented this shooting is a ban on guns - and no involvement of illegal guns.

As for "See Ghosthacked's response above," see the comments I've already made in that regard.

Edited December 15, 2012 by American Woman

[GostHacked]

Actually, it is now just as easy to transport handguns. It is a recent legal change.

Cool, might get a chance to try one out then.

[Smallc]

IIRC, you used to have a get a permit every time, you can now get a 5 year permit. As long as you have the proper locks in place, you're fine.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Smallc

[GostHacked]

Most people are responsible in every aspect of their lives. Most of us don't go around shooting people with guns, regardless of the millions of firearms out there already, legal and illegally owned. So banning guns is not the answer (but there are benefits to smart gun control). Because most people are responsible for their firearms and treat them with respect because when not handled with care can result in accidental deaths.

Calling for a complete ban on guns won't solve the problem. If someone is determined to kill, they will.

I don't know what one goes through to get a gun in the USA legally, but what we have in Canada seems to work. Unless that really IS a cultural issue in which Canadians just don't have that level of gun culture as is perceived in the USA. Even if the per capita ownership is the same. You need to apply for a firearm license and have two or more people sign you off. The RCMP contacts those people to get verification that they approve that person acquiring firearms. Then once that is done, mandatory attendance of a safety course in firearms must be passed or else you can't get the license. So there seem to be some reasonable checks and balances in order to sign you off on a license.

So that can filter out some of the crazy people from getting a gun, however that does not account for one obtaining one illegally so there is just simply no point in entertaining the idea of a complete gun ban. But if you are wanting a complete gun ban, does that mean the police will lose theirs as well?

[The_Squid]

I think it is the culture of guns and a lack of common sense controls thAt contribute to the death toll in the USA.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2012/12/12/clackamas-mall-shooting-oregon-guns-nra/1765243/

These shootings have become commonplace and are the cost of lax controls, lack of care for the mentally ill and the gun culture. Sad.

[cybercoma]

How would an American LGR have prevented this tragedy?

Don't ever change, Derek.

For the record, it would have encouraged the mother to be more responsible with her firearms, so they wouldn't fall into the hands of someone else.

[Smallc]

For the record, it would have encouraged the mother to be more responsible with her firearms, so they wouldn't fall into the hands of someone else.

How would it do that?