MiddleClassCentrist Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-allows-rcmp-border-agency-to-use-torture-tainted-information/article4497677/ The Conservative government has quietly given Canada’s national police force and the federal border agency the authority to use and share information that was likely extracted through torture. So... we can't torture but, we can use information gained through torture. I guess we'll have to hire private companies like Blackwater to do the beatings but, the information is good to go! The Conservative version of Canada is awesome! Can we get the death penalty with confessions made under duress too? Quote Ideology does not make good policy. Good policy comes from an analysis of options, comparison of options and selection of one option that works best in the current situation. This option is often a compromise between ideologies.
Fletch 27 Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 If it saves lives of my family, your family and others? I am AOk with that!!!!! Not an issue at all... Maybe I vale my family too much... Maybe I'm aware of what terrorism can do... Color me crazy but this is just fine http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-allows-rcmp-border-agency-to-use-torture-tainted-information/article4497677/ So... we can't torture but, we can use information gained through torture. I guess we'll have to hire private companies like Blackwater to do the beatings but, the information is good to go! The Conservative version of Canada is awesome! Can we get the death penalty with confessions made under duress too? Quote
BubberMiley Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 Maybe I vale my family too much... Maybe I'm aware of what terrorism can do... Color me crazy but this is just fine I could be persuaded to support this. Can they torture you? Quote "I think it's fun watching the waldick get all excited/knickers in a knot over something." -scribblet
Guest Derek L Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 So what? If Mexican police have information on a drug smuggling operation into Canada that they obtained by hooking some guy up to a metal box spring and car battery, or the Chinese police have information on a human smuggling ring obtained with the aide of bamboo cane, or the Saudis info on a terrorist garner from a beating with a rubber hose, and said groups share said info with Canadian authorities, what’s the big deal? I don’t see this as any different then Canadian police obtaining info from informants from organized crime groups, or Crown Prosecutors pleading down or giving immunity to a felon for testimony against a bigger fish……….. Quote
j44 Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) So what? If Mexican police have information on a drug smuggling operation into Canada that they obtained by hooking some guy up to a metal box spring and car battery, or the Chinese police have information on a human smuggling ring obtained with the aide of bamboo cane, or the Saudis info on a terrorist garner from a beating with a rubber hose, and said groups share said info with Canadian authorities, what’s the big deal? I don’t see this as any different then Canadian police obtaining info from informants from organized crime groups, or Crown Prosecutors pleading down or giving immunity to a felon for testimony against a bigger fish……….. I don't know if we should be emulating the principles and procedures of the Mexican, Chinese and Saudi police. Edited August 25, 2012 by j44 Quote
Guest Derek L Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 I don't know if we should be emmulating the principles and procedures of the Mexican, Chinese and Saudi police. How are we? We're not the ones using the thumbscrew...... Quote
Wild Bill Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-allows-rcmp-border-agency-to-use-torture-tainted-information/article4497677/ So... we can't torture but, we can use information gained through torture. I guess we'll have to hire private companies like Blackwater to do the beatings but, the information is good to go! The Conservative version of Canada is awesome! Can we get the death penalty with confessions made under duress too? I don't understand how the law is serving society when evidence is ruled inadmissable due to a mistake or an error on the part of the police. If a policeman tortured a subject, then charge the policeman with torture. If he makes an improper search of a car, have him reprimanded for not doing his job correctly. We don't seem to do that. Instead, we punish the cops by letting criminals off the hook! What is that supposed to do? Make the cops involved feel guilty? Frankly, I couldn't care less! Theoretically, if an improper search of a car finds a severed head then the head is inadmissable as evidence! This is just nuts! Evidence is evidence and truth is truth. Punish the cops for infractions that they committed. Punish criminals for the crimes they committed. Don't let criminals off the hook because some officer made a mistake! I just don't understand the reasoning here. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Moonlight Graham Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 From CBC News: They say that in "exceptional circumstances" the RCMP or border agency "may need to share the most complete information in its possession," including information foreign agencies likely obtained through torture, "in order to mitigate a serious risk of loss of life, injury, or substantial damage or destruction of property before it materializes.""In such rare circumstances, ignoring such information solely because of its source would represent an unacceptable risk to public safety." The directives say that in most cases the Canadian organizations are responsible for establishing internal approval processes that are "proportionate to the risks" in sharing information with foreign agencies. They also spell out procedures for information sharing when the risk of torture is "substantial" — meaning a "personal, present and foreseeable risk" based on something more than "mere theory or speculation." I'm normally against torture. It's unethical and illegal. Why should our government be able to use info obtained through illegal means when our courts can't do the same? However, I would permit info obtained from torture to be used in the above mentioned "exceptional circumstances". If there is a major security threat ie: terrorism to Canada and info obtained by torture could possibly mitigate the threat then I would be okay in allowing use of that info in those very special cases. However, there's always the chance of this kind of power being abused. More if a black eye for Toews! Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Fletch 27 Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 Toews isn't doing any torture and there are limits to what is "torture" as we all learned through waterboarding... This is great news for our security (If needed). If the cn tower was attacked and hundreds were killed, the government would be lambasted for NOT taking advantage of this data. The day would not be a "hey, your going to jail"..... It would be a "hey, we need to take you out of my the equation for a while till we see what is happening here"... Still, I'm very fine with that... It will save lives. From CBC News: I'm normally against torture. It's unethical and illegal. Why should our government be able to use info obtained through illegal means when our courts can't do the same? However, I would permit info obtained from torture to be used in the above mentioned "exceptional circumstances". If there is a major security threat ie: terrorism to Canada and info obtained by torture could possibly mitigate the threat then I would be okay in allowing use of that info in those very special cases. However, there's always the chance of this kind of power being abused. More if a black eye for Toews! Quote
Fletch 27 Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 Indeed! But I would leave no reason for the initial interrogation! Do you send the khadrs Christmas cards? I could be persuaded to support this. Can they torture you? Quote
GostHacked Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) If it saves lives of my family, your family and others? I am AOk with that!!!!! Not an issue at all... Maybe I vale my family too much... Maybe I'm aware of what terrorism can do... Color me crazy but this is just fine Playing to the authority line. This is nothing more than regurgitated garbage that the government loves to spew out. The key thing her is IF it works. And we know all too well that false confessions can be gained through torture as well. So you cannot guarantee that the information gained through torture is factual. Edit, let me clarify ....I One can torture you into making you say anything, no matter how tough you are. Care to take up the challenge? Or can we use one of your children instead? Edited August 25, 2012 by GostHacked Quote
Shady Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 So, if Canadian authorities are given information by another country or government, are they suppose to ignore it? Quote
eyeball Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 So, if Canadian authorities are given information by another country or government, are they suppose to ignore it? We're supposed to disown it if its obtained illegally and then we're supposed to prosecute the torturers. Otherwise, we deserve to have airplanes flown into our skyscrapers too. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
dre Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 I don't understand how the law is serving society when evidence is ruled inadmissable due to a mistake or an error on the part of the police. If a policeman tortured a subject, then charge the policeman with torture. If he makes an improper search of a car, have him reprimanded for not doing his job correctly. We don't seem to do that. Instead, we punish the cops by letting criminals off the hook! What is that supposed to do? Make the cops involved feel guilty? Frankly, I couldn't care less! Theoretically, if an improper search of a car finds a severed head then the head is inadmissable as evidence! This is just nuts! Evidence is evidence and truth is truth. Punish the cops for infractions that they committed. Punish criminals for the crimes they committed. Don't let criminals off the hook because some officer made a mistake! I just don't understand the reasoning here. Are you suggesting that illegally obtained evidence should be admissable in court? Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 So, if Canadian authorities are given information by another country or government, are they suppose to ignore it? Not at all. If we suspect we have recieved information aquired by using torture, we should halt trade and diplomatic relations with that country and do whatever we can to make sure its leaders wind up in prison for a long time. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Fletch 27 Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) Osama bin Laden is applauding you... Are you serious? " I hear natzing! I see natzing!". said Schultz.. I'm very happy that I care more about my own families security than you do yours.... When Not at all. If we suspect we have recieved information aquired by using torture, we should halt trade and diplomatic relations with that country and do whatever we can to make sure its leaders wind up in prison for a long time. Edited August 25, 2012 by Fletch 27 Quote
WWWTT Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 Theoretically, if an improper search of a car finds a severed head then the head is inadmissable as evidence! That's a freekin huge load of freekin bunk I ever read here on MLW!!! Man you got a freekin imagination buddy!No wonder you put me on ignore,you freekin hate it when someone calls you out on the stuff you write here! WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
WWWTT Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 So, if Canadian authorities are given information by another country or government, are they suppose to ignore it? If there is a strong possibility that the info is false?Absolutely! WWWTT Quote Maple Leaf Web is now worth $720.00! Down over $1,500 in less than one year! Total fail of the moderation on this site! That reminds me, never ask Greg to be a business partner! NEVER!
bleeding heart Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 So what? If Mexican police have information on a drug smuggling operation into Canada that they obtained by hooking some guy up to a metal box spring and car battery, or the Chinese police have information on a human smuggling ring obtained with the aide of bamboo cane, or the Saudis info on a terrorist garner from a beating with a rubber hose, and said groups share said info with Canadian authorities, what’s the big deal? There are several problems with it...but the most obvious, and which disturbs all sane people, is that innocent people can be tortured, too. Not that Commissars give a good goddamn, of course...... Quote “There is a limit to how much we can constantly say no to the political masters in Washington. All we had was Afghanistan to wave. On every other file we were offside. Eventually we came onside on Haiti, so we got another arrow in our quiver." --Bill Graham, Former Canadian Foreign Minister, 2007
TheNewTeddy Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 Conservatives Quietly OK Info Gained through Torture Reasonable or unreasonable? Not just reasonable but logical and natural. Not ethical mind you, but still just the normal thing you do when you have information. Quote Feel free to contact me outside the forums. Add "TheNewTeddy" to Twitter, Facebook, or Hotmail to reach me!
sharkman Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 As Canadians, we do way too much hand wringing. Quote
dre Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 Osama bin Laden is applauding you... Are you serious? " I hear natzing! I see natzing!". said Schultz.. I'm very happy that I care more about my own families security than you do yours.... No hes applauding YOU... And if you think encouraging torture around the world helps youre families security then youre kidding yourself. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
dre Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 If all of you are so giddy about using this kind of information, then why wait for other countries? Why dont we just start torturing folks ourself? I mean.... you would all be making the same arguments. Go ahead and ditch your values over something less likely to kill you then a lightening strike. Quote I question things because I am human. And call no one my father who's no closer than a stranger
Wild Bill Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 Are you suggesting that illegally obtained evidence should be admissable in court? Yes, I am! With the caveat that there are stiff charges laid against anyone who obtains evidence in an illegal manner. To me, BOTH acts are crimes against society, that is - you and me and everyone else. We are the victims. To throw the evidence out may let a criminal off the hook. How does that serve society? As I said, by making the cops feel guilty? Big deal! Someone who has committed a crime against society is off the hook! Who is the judge punishing? From my perspective, it is society who loses. Certainly, if it were a crime against a private citizen being considered, where is the justice for him or her? Suppose it were a crime of rape? How would the rape victim feel, watching her rapist walk out the door because some cop made an error in procedure with some evidence? I am NOT advocating torture or obtaining evidence illegally! I am saying that if someone must be punished, let it not be the crime victim. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Topaz Posted August 25, 2012 Report Posted August 25, 2012 If it saves lives of my family, your family and others? I am AOk with that!!!!! Not an issue at all... Maybe I vale my family too much... Maybe I'm aware of what terrorism can do... Color me crazy but this is just fine So are you saying that you agree with torturing? It seems so and that being the case, IF one of your relatives or close friends went to a country and was tortured because that government thought they were spies, you would have to agree it was ok???? Quote
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