Shwa Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I don't have access to the payroll of City Hall but I'd imagine there are plenty of pencil pushers that aren't incharge of core service that make a nice wage and the city would do fine without. But these are real people with real families and to put them out of work would be heartless. Which is what the incentive packages are all about. I don't think that City Staff are currently at capacity with regard to their work levels, so there are likely efficiences to be gained. Please note, the City isn't firing staff, they are offering them voluntary packages. Granted that's what goes on in the private sector all the time. Why is the public sector so special? They aren't, but that is beside the point. However, MLW has a few threads about this already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I don't have access to the payroll of City Hall but I'd imagine there are plenty of pencil pushers that aren't incharge of core service that make a nice wage and the city would do fine without. But these are real people with real families and to put them out of work would be heartless. Granted that's what goes on in the private sector all the time. Why is the public sector so special? A lot of public workers do a good job I am sure. AND I guess that most do not see themselves as pulic servants or servants to the better good of a city. Most I assume are just there to attempt to earn a living best they can. So like with all governments eventually something takes place - that it's primary purpose in the maintainance of it's existance is to exist. Very few people actually have a social conscience when it comes to their money and the making of it. So they are real people - big deal! There are real people drying out and dying in Somalia and other places in the world . No one worries about them. I really don't care if these employees who live off the tax dollar...have a hard time - as wisely and pragmaitically put - They don't care about me - so in turn I don't care about them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I don't have access to the payroll of City Hall but I'd imagine there are plenty of pencil pushers that aren't incharge of core service that make a nice wage and the city would do fine without. But these are real people with real families and to put them out of work would be heartless. Granted that's what goes on in the private sector all the time. Why is the public sector so special? The real question is: if you rooted out all the pencil pushers, would it really make a difference? Obviously the public service should strive for peak efficiency, including staffing, but to imply as Ford does that all these civil servants collecting fat salaries for nothing are the primary cause of the cities budgetary woes is just too far fetched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 They don't care about me - so in turn I don't care about them. Until they eff up your welfare cheque. Then I bet you care about them. Or when your residence is on fire. I bet you care about the firefighters when that happens since they will be caring for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Obviously the public service should strive for peak efficiency, including staffing, but to imply as Ford does that all these civil servants collecting fat salaries for nothing are the primary cause of the cities budgetary woes is just too far fetched. Actually, from the reports from the pricey consultants hired to review those primary causes, it isn't only far-fetched, it is pure bullshit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 The real question is: if you rooted out all the pencil pushers, would it really make a difference? Obviously the public service should strive for peak efficiency, including staffing, but to imply as Ford does that all these civil servants collecting fat salaries for nothing are the primary cause of the cities budgetary woes is just too far fetched. As is blaming the woes on repealing a tax on car owners. Blaming the woes on the spending habits of of one David Miller is a good start however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Until they eff up your welfare cheque. Then I bet you care about them. Or when your residence is on fire. I bet you care about the firefighters when that happens since they will be caring for you. I really fished you in with that one _ could see it coming from a mile away..lol - So it's bad to screw people that are on respectable welfare...such as a useless bureacrat...and it is good to screw those lower on the food chain who are on welfare...? Smacks of some sort of warped Darwinism if you ask me...as for the "welfare cheaque" Take it away tomorrow...come back in ten years and I will still be around - probably in better shape than this cheeze ball addiction that is created by bureacrats called welfare. Most governmental employess actually believe they are in a position of power - try to phone them an hour before or after lunch -all you get is a machine and put on hold for 45 minutes cos' they don't care and try to do as little as possible. If I hear another word about the welfare thing...I will vomit - bail out money for the people you worship is fine - even in the billions - but a few bucks to Oleg Bach...is unsavory? BUT in honesty and without posturing in my home spun rhetoricals...I do actually care...about all people...more so than you it seems..You just fake it....SO what have you done with your life that was so useful? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 As is blaming the woes on repealing a tax on car owners. You need to argue with what people actually say, not the things you imagine them saying. No one has blamed the car tax repeal for the fiscal situation. That doesn't mean chopping revenue when you're facing budgetary pressures is sound policy. Blaming the woes on the spending habits of of one David Miller is a good start however. Great! I look forward to your budgetary breakdown of how Miller is at fault here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 As is blaming the woes on repealing a tax on car owners. No one is "blaming the woes on repealing a tax on car owners" just that there is not that revenue available and now, thus far, any efficiences gained by the $300k consultant process won't meet even that shortfall. Nevermind 100's of millions... For that — and a list of nickel-and-dime, nip-and-tuck manoeuvres — Toronto could potentially, possibly, save up to $10 million to $15 million in departments that spend $1 billion, one-third of which comes from taxes. Blaming the woes on the spending habits of of one David Miller is a good start however. The consultants begin their report on the public works and infrastructure department with this: “The vast majority, 96 per cent . . . are core municipal services.”Economic development reports are out Tuesday, and again, about 96 per cent is considered core, essential, mandatory. Do away with core services and you close down the city, in effect. So are you saying that David Miller's spending habits - on core municipal services - is the place to start laying blame? No doubt Miller is having a good chuckle right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I really fished you in with that one _ could see it coming from a mile away..lol - So it's bad to screw people that are on respectable welfare...such as a useless bureacrat...and it is good to screw those lower on the food chain who are on welfare...? Smacks of some sort of warped Darwinism if you ask me...as for the "welfare cheaque" Take it away tomorrow...come back in ten years and I will still be around - probably in better shape than this cheeze ball addiction that is created by bureacrats called welfare. Most governmental employess actually believe they are in a position of power - try to phone them an hour before or after lunch -all you get is a machine and put on hold for 45 minutes cos' they don't care and try to do as little as possible. If I hear another word about the welfare thing...I will vomit - bail out money for the people you worship is fine - even in the billions - but a few bucks to Oleg Bach...is unsavory? BUT in honesty and without posturing in my home spun rhetoricals...I do actually care...about all people...more so than you it seems..You just fake it....SO what have you done with your life that was so useful? But you still care about firefighters right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 But you still care about firefighters right? I care about them all - I wish the best for everyone - I was provocative because it is entertaining - but I do have a rule in my personal life - I will help you - but I expect that when I am in need that you help me also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I care about them all - I wish the best for everyone - I was provocative because it is entertaining - but I do have a rule in my personal life - I will help you - but I expect that when I am in need that you help me also. It shouldn't be a rule, but a plain social responsibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oleg Bach Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 It shouldn't be a rule, but a plain social responsibility. They should be reminded on occassion and stop being so desperate in respects to their own survival. Human benevolence is in the core of all people. Our system runs people ragged..makes them desperate...and thoughtless... My father had seen a lot in his life time - the fall of his familiar wealth - the rise of communism and war - famine - torture - imprisonment..etc... He did have a rule -or rather a suggestion - If there was food on the table or money in the drawer...He instilled a social responsilbity in his family...one sentence "There are others". We are self centred whether we are wealthy or not . I do not suggest a solution through socialism...But I do suggest that the "suggestion" Love thy neighbour.....might be given another try. Secularists create systems that are to complex..we need to be simple again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 They should be reminded on occassion and stop being so desperate in respects to their own survival. Human benevolence is in the core of all people. Our system runs people ragged..makes them desperate...and thoughtless... My father had seen a lot in his life time - the fall of his familiar wealth - the rise of communism and war - famine - torture - imprisonment..etc... He did have a rule -or rather a suggestion - If there was food on the table or money in the drawer...He instilled a social responsilbity in his family...one sentence "There are others". We are self centred whether we are wealthy or not . I do not suggest a solution through socialism...But I do suggest that the "suggestion" Love thy neighbour.....might be given another try. Secularists create systems that are to complex..we need to be simple again. Kindness towards others does not rest solely in the domain of socialism. I mean 'social" in the sense of "others." No man is an island entire of itself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacee Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I don't have access to the payroll of City Hall but I'd imagine there are plenty of pencil pushers that aren't incharge of core service that make a nice wage and the city would do fine without. "I'd imagine" is the problem. Those like Ford (and formerly Mike Harris) who 'imagine' that there is lots of 'waste' in public service that can be cut without affecting services generally don't have a clue what they're talking about. "Pencil pushers" targets administrative staff who, for example, order and make payment for materials and equipment and services from private sector suppliers. Staff cuts to city services will affect the private sector too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 What Rob knows but wont admit is that property taxes need to rise. TO has the cheapest tax rate in the GTA. That should not be and a small increase with austerity measures should od the trick. The KPMG report does say 96% of services is mandated, but it does not say there isnt inefficiency within those services. So find the inefficiencies, raise the tax rate and things should look very good. Ok ok, better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) What Rob knows but wont admit is that property taxes need to rise. TO has the cheapest tax rate in the GTA. That should not be and a small increase with austerity measures should od the trick. I completely forgot that the halfwit also froze property taxes for the year, ensuring that inflation would compound the already existing budget issues. The KPMG report does say 96% of services is mandated, but it does not say there isnt inefficiency within those services. Actually it does. The Public Works committee is responsible for slightly over $1-billion in spending, but consultants found that 96 per cent of all services that report to the Public Works committee are untouchable -- that is, they are either provincially legislated or necessary to the ongoing viability of the city.Of those core functions, 30 per cent are operating at above mandated service level, offering an opportunity for service cuts, according to the consultants. So find the inefficiencies, raise the tax rate and things should look very good.Ok ok, better. I think you and I both know that a tax hike at this stage, after all the rhetoric, would be political suicide for Ford. It would repudiate his entire campaign. What we'll get instead are deep cuts to social services and cultural programs and a steady siphoning off of city service to the family Ford's private sector cronies. Which was probably the point the whole time. Edited July 13, 2011 by Black Dog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shwa Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 City can cut 2,000 child care spots, merge fire and EMS to save money: report What's 2000 subsidized daycare spaces when there are 19000 on the waiting list? That should get them a couple hundred grand. Merging fire and EMS, another couple of million... The only way I see it is a tax hike. That'll go over well... Ouch. We're the most expensive city in Canada Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I completely forgot that the halfwit also froze property taxes for the year, ensuring that inflation would compound the already existing budget issues. Freezing property taxes is a good thing. Toronto's already had way too many ridiculous property tax increases because statists like yourself can't stop spending money for "the greater good." Higher and higher property taxes just means more and more families and businesses moving out of the city. And thus, just compounding the existing budget issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Freezing property taxes is a good thing. Toronto's already had way too many ridiculous property tax increases because statists like yourself can't stop spending money for "the greater good." . "Too many?" How many, exactly? How much? Can't stop spending money? On what, exactly? Higher and higher property taxes just means more and more families and businesses moving out of the city. And thus, just compounding the existing budget issues. Toronto has the lowest property taxes in the GTA as it is, so I question the conclusion that Torontonians are overtaxed and set to bolt to tax havens like, I dunno, Mississauga. Other things that would prompt people to move is cutting revenue to the point where services suffer and people decide to go someplace that's not falling apart. Finally, it bears repeating that not indexing property taxes to inflation was only made possible by last year's surplus: it's unlikely to be repeated next year, at which point the rates will have to go up even more just to catch up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I like how the renter advocate property tax increases but if their rent goes up it's a travesty and the landlord is just being greedy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guyser Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 (edited) I like how the renter advocate property tax increases but if their rent goes up it's a travesty and the landlord is just being greedy. I have no idea who you are referring to, however prop tax should go up. It is too low. Lowest in the GTA by a large margin. Not to mention, multi -res dwelling tax is 9th and business tax is 14th on the list. Rents are a market problem , not a tax problem. Edited July 13, 2011 by guyser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 I like how the renter advocate property tax increases but if their rent goes up it's a travesty and the landlord is just being greedy. I like how some people's positions are so weak they need to invent people (in this case, the mythical "renter") to argue with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shady Posted July 13, 2011 Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Toronto has the lowest property taxes in the GTA as it is Unfortunately, places exist outside of the GTA. I know, it's hard to imagine. so I question the conclusion that Torontonians are overtaxed and set to bolt to tax havens Of course you do, you're a statist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Dog Posted July 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2011 Unfortunately, places exist outside of the GTA. I know, it's hard to imagine. So, your argument not only doesn't make sense form a fiscal standpoint, it fails to take into account that people might have motivations for living in Toronto or the GTA other than property tax rates. But then again, that must be a foreign concept for you, living as you do in your folks' basement in whatever two-bit shithole you call home. Of course you do, you're a statist. Naw, I just believe in supporting arguments and not simply making declarative statements. That's your bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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