Montreal riots

[myata]

Not sure which category this topic should go into, as it definitely has implications on all levels of government. The reports about riots in Montreal are running since yesterday night on all Quebec channels (CBC story).

The riots have been sparkled by shooting of a Haitian youth, three police officers are injured.

This is highly reminiscent of similar incidents in Europe. I doubt there's a quick solution to this problem but it appears that hotspots are almost invariably focused around some ethnic ghetto. Any ideas?

[AngusThermopyle]

Hmmm, this is troubling. Is there any answer thats easy, I would say no. The answer would probably have to include immigration reform as well as some sort of reform to our citizenship requirements.

It does sound reminiscent of the troubles many European countries are facing now. Is it a problem caused by immigration? Perhaps economic circumstances should be named as well, could cultural influences be part of it too?

The answer is sure to be one that isn't easy and I believe will cause some pretty heated differences of opinion. Having spent quite a bit of time in Haiti what I can say is that rioting is just a part of life there. Perhaps thats also part of the problem.

[BC_chick]

There is a serious dilemma here - the police are trigger-happy within certain minority groups, yet it's also true that the police are on guard because within those groups there is a disproportionate amount of crime.

Immigration reform is not all that's gonna do it, remember there are existing minority groups who are profiled and mistreated by the police who have nothing to do with the current immigration system - think First Nations for example.

Also, before the current system it used to be the poor Irish, Chinese etc that were the victims of these police brutalities. So there does seem to be a chicken and egg situation where it's hard to say what came first - the criminally-infested poor neighbourhoods or trigger-happy police who don't fear their victims because of their collective lack of social power.

Would these kids have just as easily shot if they were white and in a different neighbourhood?

I would think not.

Betcha we get another botched investigation, the cops will get a slap on the wrist, and nothing will happen. Not exactly a scenario which will make the next policeman/woman think twice before shooting yet another poor black kid.

[Wilber]

Why have an investigation, you've already decided the cops are guilty.

[Black Dog]

This is highly reminiscent of similar incidents in Europe. I doubt there's a quick solution to this problem but it appears that hotspots are almost invariably focused around some ethnic ghetto. Any ideas?

Blame the Muslims.

[BC_chick]

Why have an investigation, you've already decided the cops are guilty.

The only thing I said against the police was that their investigations rarely lead to culpability against themselves, but though that's not saying they are guilty now....

In fact, if anything, I said I can see both sides of the issue on this. I guess you only see the one side though if you understood me as you did.

[g_bambino]

The only thing I said against the police was that their investigations rarely lead to culpability against themselves, but though that's not saying they are guilty now....

In fact, if anything, I said I can see both sides of the issue on this. I guess you only see the one side though if you understood me as you did.

Er, I do believe you said:

[T]he police are trigger-happy within certain minority groups...

[T]here are existing minority groups who are profiled and mistreated by the police...

Also, before the current system it used to be the poor Irish, Chinese etc that were the victims of these police brutalities.

[T]rigger-happy police who don't fear their victims because of their collective lack of social power.

Would these kids have just as easily shot if they were white and in a different neighbourhood?

Not exactly a scenario which will make the next policeman/woman think twice before shooting yet another poor black kid.

Yes, you did speak of high crime rates in ethnic communities; but the above is a pretty damning portrayal of the police; much more so than simply "police internal investigations rarely lead to cupability on the part of the police," as you alledge was all you said.

[BC_chick]

Look at who I was responding to - it was someone who was blaming the immigration system for it. Had I been responding to someone who was blaming only the police, I probably would've emphasised the police predicament more.

[capricorn]

The 18 year old victim immigrated with his family from Honduras in 1998, not Haiti. Perhaps some of the other youths present were Haitian, I don't know.

Apparently, the cops are afraid to venture into Montreal North.

Il est dangereux pour les agents de police de s'aventurer à Montréal-Nord, et les événements de samedi soir l'ont à nouveau prouvé, soutient l'expert en sécurité publique Robert Poëti. Il craint que, à la suite de l'incident, les policiers diminuent leur présence dans ce secteur, où plus de 3000 infractions criminelles ont été commises l'an dernier, selon le SPVM.

«Les policiers ont peur de s'y aventurer, alors imaginez comment la population doit se sentir», dit l'expert, qui a travaillé à la Sûreté du Québec pendant 28 ans.

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/article/20080811...30/CPACTUALITES

Here we have a district where the cops are afraid of the residents and the residents distrust the cops. Not a good picture at all.

Montreal North is part of Denis Coderre's riding. In an interview, he said some of the rioting and looting after the shooting was perpetrated by individuals from outside the district who took advantage of the situation. So the problem of civil disobedience doesn't appear to be restricted to the area where the shooting took place. It would appear the City of Montreal has a very serious problem on its hands.

Reading the accounts of witnesses, some say the cops involved in the shooting of the 18 year old were not provoked and others say a group of youths moved threateningly toward the cops and someone lunged at them. Getting to the truth behind this horrible event will not be easy.

What bothers me is that many of these ethnic groups came to Canada to get away from crime infested countries and cities, and corrupt police forces. So why did rioters act so savagely against law enforcement personnel, firefighters, emergency responders who were there in the aftermath to help the local community? And why vandalize and loot local businesses? Why set fire to a fire hall and attack firefighters doing their job? Of course the cops will be investigated for firing a weapon. I say there should also be an investigation about the underlying causes of the carnage that followed. If workable solutions are not found we'll see more of the same in that district. Solutions would have to be more than sending cops to ethnic sensitivity training seminars.

[AngusThermopyle]

Look at who I was responding to - it was someone who was blaming the immigration system for it.

Who was blaming immigration?

What I actually said was the solution would probably include some sort of immigration reform, no where did I say immigration and immigration alone was to blame, I do believe I included other factors that should probably be considered as well.

Is your tunnel vision so extreme that it now impairs your ability to comprehend what you read?

[Guest American Woman]

Who was blaming immigration?

What I actually said was the solution would probably include some sort of immigration reform, no where did I say immigration and immigration alone was to blame, I do believe I included other factors that should probably be considered as well.

Is your tunnel vision so extreme that it now impairs your ability to comprehend what you read?

While you in no way were "blaming immigration," as you were accused of, I did see the police being 'found guilty' just as Wilber said.

Regarding the riots-- I have to say that anyone who doesn't think immigration has anything to do with this is in denial. Do the police target certain minorities? Of course. Is it fair? Of course not. Is it understandable? Unfortunately, I think the answer to that has to be yes.

As you said, there is no easy answer. Immigration into a totally new culture can't be easy. Since some people who immigrate have no idea what they will be met with, I have to say again that I think some sort of counseling to inform immigrants what they are actually in for would be beneficial. It would serve everyone well if presenting the reality of all that's involved were part of the immigration process.

Edited August 11, 2008 by American Woman

[AngusThermopyle]

While you in no way were "blaming immigration," as you were accused of, I did see the police being 'found guilty' just as Wilber said.

Thank you AW, I really dislike it when other people attribute things I did not say to me.

Actually I noticed that the condemnation of the police was pretty firm and one sided as well. Don't get me wrong, I certainly do not love the police (I really like the early stuff by the band though) however I do realize that they have a job to do and without them we'd all be pretty much screwed. By its very nature the job the police have to do is one that will bring them into conflict with those they serve, actually, some of those they serve.

For the most part I find police officers do a good job. Of course, as with everything, you will find some bad ones, but I believe the bad ones are an extreme minority. I find it ironic that one who rails against stereotyping on a regular basis would then indulge in exactly the same behaviour.

[August1991]

Regarding the riots-- I have to say that anyone who doesn't think immigration has anything to do with this is in denial. Do the police target certain minorities? Of course. Is it fair? Of course not. Is it understandable? Unfortunately, I think the answer to that has to be yes.

Immigration?

Montreal is arguably the most complicated city in North America since many of its residents are unilingual yet don't speak the same language. In addition, across this language divide, there are various immigrant groups of varying degrees of assimilation.

IMHO, the Montreal police force is too "francophone de souche". Worse, it has made a remarkable effort in the past two decades to hire (white, francophone) women. (It was a policière who was shot in the leg last night.) This hiring policy was the resuilt of an ideologically driven agenda.

Good police work often requires informers or people willing to come forward. The Montreal police force has trouble with various communities because it is poorly informed.

Edited August 12, 2008 by August1991

[bush_cheney2004]

Immigration?

Montreal is arguably the most complicated city in North America since many of its residents are unilingual yet don't speak the same language. In addition, across this language divide, there are various immigrant groups of varying degrees of assimilation.

Are you kidding me....immigration? Montreal and Quebec City are notorious for racial profiling and DWB offenses....driving while black. But to be fair, the LA riots (and many others in North America) had nothing to do with immigration.

Edited August 12, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[Wilber]

The only thing I said against the police was that their investigations rarely lead to culpability against themselves, but though that's not saying they are guilty now....

In fact, if anything, I said I can see both sides of the issue on this. I guess you only see the one side though if you understood me as you did.

If that is seeing both sides, I would hate to be around you when you take sides.

Actually, I think you also called them trigger happy and accused them of profiling and mistreating people. All of that may be true on occasion but what do we know about this case?

From the articles I have seen, all I can determine is:

The "kid" was 18 and it isn't mentioned how old the other "kids" were.

The police were trying to arrest someone. Who and for what?

They were allegedly surrounded by 20 people and several of them tried to rush them. Who were those people, were any of them armed and if so , with what? At what point does a police officer defend themself with lethal force? In short, did the police have reason to fear for their lives?

At least try to answer some of those questions before you make accusations and assumptions.

[myata]

What bothers me is that many of these ethnic groups came to Canada to get away from crime infested countries and cities, and corrupt police forces. So why did rioters act so savagely against law enforcement personnel, firefighters, emergency responders who were there in the aftermath to help the local community? And why vandalize and loot local businesses? Why set fire to a fire hall and attack firefighters doing their job? Of course the cops will be investigated for firing a weapon. I say there should also be an investigation about the underlying causes of the carnage that followed. If workable solutions are not found we'll see more of the same in that district. Solutions would have to be more than sending cops to ethnic sensitivity training seminars.

Certainly that would be one part of the problem. The culture (including that of violence) will move with people, and it takes at least a generation to dissipate (hopefully). The problem is, nobody wants to leave stable prosperous societies; countries in the need of constant influx of workforce will have to rely on less developed, more volatile sources. It's another question of course, whether mass immigration is really the answer to our problems; it's a different and very large issue in its own right.

Regarding the rest, I certainly find the very existence of such areas free of law enforcement a major sign of a trouble. Maybe the whole system of law enforcement / justice is too reactive; it only kicks in once the trouble becomes visible. Ideally, targeted specific program of actions should kick in immediately after a "risk area" has been identified, and long before it develops into a full blown ghetto. Such a program would involve an array of complementary approaches, on social, community, and law enforcement side; I'd love to see some government (probably not this responsible one) invest into development and practical operation of such program throughout the country; that would do much more to actually reducing violent crime than all the empty "get tough" rhethoric (not to be mistaken, targeted programs should include zero tolerance on crime as one of its elements).

[AngusThermopyle]

The culture (including that of violence) will move with people,

Yes, the culture of violence will move with the people, it always has.

it takes at least a generation to dissipate

Cant argue with that.

The qualifier being "at least" makes this a very open ended statement. It allows the person making the statement to be correct no matter what rebuttal is made. In this case obviously it takes at least a generation, I dont think you would see signal changes to any demographic within ...say...about five or even nine years, more likely about 30 to 50 years.

The real point however goes back to the first quote. The culture of violence moves with the people. It always has and probably will for the foreseeable future, distastefull as that may be it remains an indesputable fact.

So what is the answer to this part of us? This distastefull side of our human condition?

[myata]

We won't have all the answers right away, but as with all problems, the first step is to recognise it's existence and act.

We should investigate, discuss and work out a strategy, set of programs to deal with emerging "hotspots" of violence and crime. Some ideas:

- all rational action begins with understanding situation; we need a set of social measurements that can identify emerging trouble at an early stage; this is a task for research; once established, all major cities should start collecting and evaluating these data; currently, many of these have already developed into well recognized problem areas, I can name at least two in my broad neighbourhood.

- governments of all levels should come up with resources to deal with "hotspots". This may include e.g., establishing child and youth care programs, assistance with education and employment, etc;

- communities should be given legal means to proactively clean themselves of unwanted residents before problems escalate to the criminal level. This may include, 1) zero tolerance on nuisance and crime in publicly owned assisted housing; 2) some form of responsibility of private landlords for their residents; in the sense that they're either obligated to react to community reports of nuisance and/or crime, or carry some material penalty if they fail to do so.

- introducing new penalties into administrative and criminal code; concepts like "probation" or "house arrest" or "bail" or "community service" may not appear convincing to somebody used to high levels of violence; on the other hand, use of incarceration may be counter productive for lesser crimes; what comes to mind is e.g. heavy escalating fines and/or confiscation of property. Preferably with some way of sharing responsibility for underage offenders; the aim is to express community's dissatisfication with the act, and determination that further offenses will not be tolerated, in an clear, easily understandable for everybody format. E.g., posession of an illegal weapon, $10,000 (first offense); two, $50,000; and so on.

[M.Dancer]

I grew up in Montreal North, went to School there....back when I was a kid it was a multi ethnic city. The largest groups were the French, followed by Irish and Anglos...then came Italians and we started to get pizzas delivered.

The cops were tough back then. Saw a cop once stop traffic just by holding out his arm...Arcand was his name. Tough cop. Knew more than one jr B&E artist who got smacked around and left the station with more bruises than they had going in.

There were gangs back then too. The most powerful were called the mafia. One of the fellows who showed up from time to time at the European Sports Bar on Charleroi was this fellow called Cotroni. The other gang were called the Branded Saddlers (MC) and their cadet branch, the Golden Vultures. Of the 3 the ones you had to watch were the branded. They used to hand out at the European Sports Bar until the stabbings and then they weren't welcome.

Edited August 12, 2008 by M.Dancer

[eyeball]

Reading the accounts of witnesses, some say the cops involved in the shooting of the 18 year old were not provoked and others say a group of youths moved threateningly toward the cops and someone lunged at them. Getting to the truth behind this horrible event will not be easy.

This is why police should be required to wear cameras so everything they say and do can be used for or against them in a court of law. These cameras should be for their and our protection.

Police in the UK for example are experimenting with

.

I bet if the police that killed Robert Dziekanski knew they were being recorded the outcome would have been much different.

[capricorn]

This is why police should be required to wear cameras so everything they say and do can be used for or against them in a court of law. These cameras should be for their and our protection.

Sounds good but would it fly? You'd have complaints that these cameras are an invasion of privacy on the persons being filmed by the cops. This is Canada where individual rights trump the rights of cops to be protected on the job and the right to safer communities. I believe state troopers the US have cameras in their vehicles. Perhaps Canadian police should experiment with audio visual cameras in their vehicles as opposed to cameras on their person.

Police in the UK for example are experimenting with

.

Thanks. That's an interesting vid.

I bet if the police that killed Robert Dziekanski knew they were being recorded the outcome would have been much different.

We have no way of knowing that so it is mere speculation on your part. I don't know that "cop cams" would be much on the cops' minds in those situations where human reflexes or unexpected developments which sometimes lead to unintended outcomes.

Edited August 12, 2008 by capricorn

[DogOnPorch]

A group of 20+ people are not 'unarmed' by their very nature.

---------------------------------------

The wise man does at once what the fool does finally.

---Niccolo Machiavelli

[HisSelf]

This is a problem that the Toronto Police are dealing with. Fortunately, their chief, Julian Fantino, screwed up politically big time and ended up getting his ass handed to him in a paper bag. He then went to the Ontario Provincial Police where his first intiative was to repaint OPP patrol cars. Way to go, Jules.

Immigrant populations (who are very vulnerable) do not get rambunctious without a reason, as a rule. The Haitians are just about the most desperate. I mean, would YOU want to go back to that cesspool?

It's time for the Government of Quebec to get in there and figure this out.

[eyeball]

Sounds good but would it fly? You'd have complaints that these cameras are an invasion of privacy on the persons being filmed by the cops.

These same people are perfectly free to carry their own cameras. I'd be just as concerned about losing my freedom to do so in the event that the cops start seizing everyone's cameras at incidents that go bad, like the Dziekanski case.

This is Canada where individual rights trump the rights of cops to be protected on the job and the right to safer communities.

If this was actually the case I don't think police (or any institution) would be left to investigate themselves. I think our right to safer communities are embedded in and find better expression in our universal (I'd even say natural and inherent) human rights. In contrast I think our Charter of Rights and Freedoms is more a document that spells out where the government's rights end - something that should be constantly challenged and pushed against, to better keep it in its place.

I believe state troopers the US have cameras in their vehicles. Perhaps Canadian police should experiment with audio visual cameras in their vehicles as opposed to cameras on their person.

I think they should experiment with both.

Thanks. That's an interesting vid.

You're welcome.

I don't know that "cop cams" would be much on the cops' minds in those situations (Dziekanski's) where human reflexes or unexpected developments which sometimes lead to unintended outcomes.

This would probably change over time if police were aware they could be held liable if they took inappropriate action. Its reasonable to believe police and people would both learn something from the investigations into mistakes, assuming these investigations weren't so one-sided.

Edited August 12, 2008 by eyeball

[guyser]

Sounds good but would it fly? You'd have complaints that these cameras are an invasion of privacy on the persons being filmed by the cops.

Of course we would have complaints. They would be unfounded since no invasion takes place while out on the street.

What you get is the truth, not the old adage "it is an isolated incident". We could in fact see the truth out on the street.

This is Canada where individual rights trump the rights of cops to be protected on the job and the right to safer communities.

Huh?

What in effect you are saying is ...to have safer communities means we should trump individual rights, and to have the cops safer we should allow them to trample rights.

Sorry, doesnt fly.

Police are well protected on the job. The have guns , tasers, and best of all (for them anyway), a union.

I believe state troopers the US have cameras in their vehicles. Perhaps Canadian police should experiment with audio visual cameras in their vehicles as opposed to cameras on their person.

And the truth about DWB's, bogus pull overs, violation of rights would become apparent, just like in the US.

I don't know that "cop cams" would be much on the cops' minds in those situations where human reflexes or unexpected developments which sometimes lead to unintended outcomes.

And that would be a good thing. If they forget it is cilming, then whatever is seen is the normal daily occurences. and that can be both good and bad.