Montreal riots

[capricorn]

This would probably change over time if police were aware they could be held liable if they took inappropriate action. Its reasonable to believe police and people would both learn something from the investigations into mistakes, assuming these investigations weren't so one-sided.

Cops investigating cops is never a good thing. The Surete du Quebec (SQ) is leading the investigation into the conduct of the cops in Montreal North. I don't agree with this. I hope the public enquiry demanded by the community goes ahead. Speaking of enquiries, it doesn't appear to me that the Bouchard-Taylor Commission addressed the question of the sad state of relations between ethnic communities and the police. I looked at their recommendations and they are silent on the matter. I think that was a missed opportunity.

[capricorn]

Of course we would have complaints. They would be unfounded since no invasion takes place while out on the street.

I was thinking more in terms of the video tapes" admissibility should charges be laid against certain individuals. If the tapes were inadmissible then the only reason for the cameras would be for use against the police.

What in effect you are saying is ...to have safer communities means we should trump individual rights, and to have the cops safer we should allow them to trample rights.

No that's not what I meant. One example. Citizens are not allowed to know where convicted pedophiles released from custody take residence. The pedophile's individual rights takes precedence over the community's right to protect children from those pedophiles. That is the context of my concern.

Police are well protected on the job. The have guns , tasers, and best of all (for them anyway), a union.

Tell that to the families of the murdered Mayerthorpe RCMP officers, or the female officer killed in Laval Quebec and all the other killed while on duty.

And the truth about DWB's, bogus pull overs, violation of rights would become apparent, just like in the US.

Yes, that would definitely be a good thing providing we did something about it (and more than just ethnic sensitivity training for cops).

[guyser]

I was thinking more in terms of the video tapes" admissibility should charges be laid against certain individuals. If the tapes were inadmissible then the only reason for the cameras would be for use against the police.

I dont really understand this. Admissibilty should not be a problem since no one has any expectation of privacy while out on a public venue. Whatever the outcome, the truth will be on those tapes, good and bad.

No that's not what I meant. One example. Citizens are not allowed to know where convicted pedophiles released from custody take residence. The pedophile's individual rights takes precedence over the community's right to protect children from those pedophiles. That is the context of my concern.

Is that a Que law? I know in Ont that they advertise where they are released and where they stay, at least for the most part.

And as much as this sucks, those peds have paid what was deemed to be their debt and are free at least in the context of being out of prison since they will never be free.

Tell that to the families of the murdered Mayerthorpe RCMP officers, or the female officer killed in Laval Quebec and all the other killed while on duty.

What should I tell the local convenience store owner? He has more risk of death than a cop , but when he signed up, unlike the cop, death wasn't a risk, but we know it is.

Mayerthorpe was a bloodbath bourne out of stupidity on the part of the RCMP. It sucks to say that, but from where I'm standing, it sure looked that way. The commission seems to agree.

[capricorn]

I dont really understand this. Admissibilty should not be a problem since no one has any expectation of privacy while out on a public venue. Whatever the outcome, the truth will be on those tapes, good and bad.

Perhaps you're right about admissibilty. Although, if I was a perp I'd do everything to have that evidence thrown out.

Is that a Que law? I know in Ont that they advertise where they are released and where they stay, at least for the most part.

I think you're wrong about Ontario. It seems to me just recently, a released convict moved to Vanier and his address was not divulged leaving many residents on edge. I looked for a reference but can't find it.

All provinces have privacy laws which I believe protect pedophiles and other convicted individuals released from prison. They can settle in any community and no public notice is given. The only way for a community to be alerted is through their own vigilance. Karl Toft abused some 200 boys over a couple of decades. He was released in 2005; his whereabouts were protected under privacy legislation.

Toft plans to stay in Edmonton, said Tonowski.

He will live off his pension and stay in a house.

Because of privacy legislation, the address cannot be disclosed. But police officers have verified there are no children living within several blocks of the home, said Tonowski.

http://www.canada.com/edmonton/edmontonjou...66-4e58b885bca5

What should I tell the local convenience store owner? He has more risk of death than a cop , but when he signed up, unlike the cop, death wasn't a risk, but we know it is.

Do you have any evidence that store owners are more at risk of being killed than cops?

Mayerthorpe was a bloodbath bourne out of stupidity on the part of the RCMP. It sucks to say that, but from where I'm standing, it sure looked that way. The commission seems to agree.

You're right that the raid was bungled. The fact remains the 4 RCMP officers were on duty and being armed to the teeth did not help them. They paid the ultimate price.

[AngusThermopyle]

The fact remains the 4 RCMP officers were on duty and being armed to the teeth did not help them.

Actually they were'nt "armed to the teeth", they carried the standard issue weapons. No grenade launchers, no MMG's, no anti personell mines, no artillery support. Would you say that was a slight exageration on your behalf?

Next point: when ambushed it is very difficult to turn the advantage to ones own side. Given the fact that they were cops and not trained millitary personell its not surprising that the outcome was what it was. Further to this was the fact that they were not acting as a coherent group but rather more on an individual basis, advantage, ambusher.

[capricorn]

Actually they were'nt "armed to the teeth", they carried the standard issue weapons. No grenade launchers, no MMG's, no anti personell mines, no artillery support. Would you say that was a slight exageration on your behalf?

You're absolutely right. But considering I am a civilian and all I carry on me in case of being mugged is a whistle, I see having guns as armed to the teeth.

Next point: when ambushed it is very difficult to turn the advantage to ones own side. Given the fact that they were cops and not trained millitary personell its not surprising that the outcome was what it was. Further to this was the fact that they were not acting as a coherent group but rather more on an individual basis, advantage, ambusher.

I guess inexperience further exacerbated their predicament.

[August1991]

The cops were tough back then. Saw a cop once stop traffic just by holding out his arm...Arcand was his name. Tough cop. Knew more than one jr B&E artist who got smacked around and left the station with more bruises than they had going in.

There were gangs back then too. The most powerful were called the mafia. One of the fellows who showed up from time to time at the European Sports Bar on Charleroi was this fellow called Cotroni. The other gang were called the Branded Saddlers (MC) and their cadet branch, the Golden Vultures. Of the 3 the ones you had to watch were the branded. They used to hand out at the European Sports Bar until the stabbings and then they weren't welcome.

Good police work means knowing people in the area. About 20 years ago, for ideological reasons, the Montreal police force decided to hire lots of (white) women to make the force more "equitable". Unfortunately, the Montreal police force did not devote a similar effort to hiring from other "communities".

The end result is that the Montreal police force is "gender-balanced" but many people are unwilling to come forward and report a crime or serve as a witness.

-----

My conclusion is that pragmatism should trump ideology. The idea of gender/racial/religious quotas in police hiring is crazy. We should hire cops who can talk to people, get their trust, catch criminals and prevent crime.

If South Ossetians or South Jamaicans are causing a crime problem, I'd hire honest ones and pay them well to catch the criminals.

Edited August 14, 2008 by August1991

[M.Dancer]

Good police work means knowing people in the area. About 20 years ago, for ideological reasons, the Montreal police force decided to hire lots of (white) women to make the force more "equitable". Unfortunately, the Montreal police force did not devote a similar effort to hiring from other "communities".

The end result is that the Montreal police force is "gender-balanced" but many people are unwilling to come forward and report a crime or serve as a witness.

-----

My conclusion is that pragmatism should trump ideology. The idea of gender/racial/religious quotas in police hiring is crazy. We should hire cops who can talk to people, get their trust, catch criminals and prevent crime.

30 years ago, most of the cops in montreal north were from montreal north....30 years ago montreal north was its own city with its own mayor (Yves Ryan) police and fire dept...n ow I'm sure a lot has changed but back then when there were still cultivated fields not far from where the riots were, people from the west (that's west of Papineau) were almost foreigners....

Mega cities are bad ideas for communities....

Edited August 14, 2008 by M.Dancer

[guyser]

Perhaps you're right about admissibilty. Although, if I was a perp I'd do everything to have that evidence thrown out.

And the judge would tell you to stop waisting the courts time.

I think you're wrong about Ontario. It seems to me just recently, a released convict moved to Vanier and his address was not divulged leaving many residents on edge. I looked for a reference but can't find it.

Found this, complete with address where he lives. I do not believe an address falls under the privacy laws since polie routinely give out addresses of accused, not to mention post pictures of said.

Do you have any evidence that store owners are more at risk of being killed than cops?

Not at hand, but I do have this...

The 10 most dangerous jobs

Occupation Fatalities per 100,000

Timber cutters 117.8

Fishers 71.1

Pilots and navigators 69.8

Structural metal workers 58.2

Drivers-sales workers 37.9

Roofers 37

Electrical power installers 32.5

Farm occupations 28

Construction laborers 27.7

Truck drivers 25

....and not a cop amongst them.

You're right that the raid was bungled. The fact remains the 4 RCMP officers were on duty and being armed to the teeth did not help them. They paid the ultimate price.

They were armed all right, but sadly not armed with smarts. Play stupid games win stupid prizes. It is horrible they died and even moreso they could have and should have lived had they been smart.

[Army Guy]

Be careful of what you wish for...normally 4 RCMP officers would be enough to handle any circumstance in rural alberta or rural any where...Maybe next time they'll be rolling up in a swat van, and the farmer will be taken down hard and fast, under cover from smoke and tear gas, with couple of flashbangs thrown in for good measures...I know is much better to applogize later and be alive, but like i said who really expects this type of reception from rural anywhere.....

it was a tragic mistake, but one that we as citizens expect out of our police officers....you know the ones that knock on the door, and politely say "RCMP ma'am" ....not someone yelling thru a bull horn you got 3 seconds to come out with your hands up, or we open fire....times up open fire....bring in the damn tank....call ottawa we need an airstrike....

[guyser]

Be careful of what you wish for...normally 4 RCMP officers would be enough to handle any circumstance in rural alberta or rural any where...Maybe next time they'll be rolling up in a swat van, and the farmer will be taken down hard and fast, under cover from smoke and tear gas, with couple of flashbangs thrown in for good measures...I know is much better to applogize later and be alive, but like i said who really expects this type of reception from rural anywhere.....

There is some truth in that. I am no fan of Police using APC's for a minor drug bust, nor of the militarization of our police forces. The idea of a sledgehammer being used when a flyswatter is needed bothers me.

it was a tragic mistake, but one that we as citizens expect out of our police officers....you know the ones that knock on the door, and politely say "RCMP ma'am"

I would never expect , insofar as this case is concerned , that the RCMP roll up with please and thank you's.

That guy was known to be erratic, known to have weapons, made threats to police, and had a blotter full of incidences.

To drive up as they did, well.....the outcome should have been forseen.

[capricorn]

And the judge would tell you to stop waisting the courts time.

That's my kind of judge!

Found this, complete with address where he lives. I do not believe an address falls under the privacy laws since polie routinely give out addresses of accused, not to mention post pictures of said.

Did you forget the link guyser? I sure would like to see.

Not at hand, but I do have this...

The 10 most dangerous jobs

Occupation Fatalities per 100,000

Timber cutters 117.8

Fishers 71.1

Pilots and navigators 69.8

Structural metal workers 58.2

Drivers-sales workers 37.9

Roofers 37

Electrical power installers 32.5

Farm occupations 28

Construction laborers 27.7

Truck drivers 25

....and not a cop amongst them.

All that those stats tell me is that more in those occupations have been killed/injured than cops because there are more of them in the general population. In any case, I get your point and thanks for doing some research on the matter.

[blueblood]

That's my kind of judge!

Did you forget the link guyser? I sure would like to see.

All that those stats tell me is that more in those occupations have been killed/injured than cops because there are more of them in the general population. In any case, I get your point and thanks for doing some research on the matter.

Those stats have jobs in which the people performing those jobs aren't trained at all. I'm familiar with most of these jobs and can assure you they aren't trained like police officers are. If cops had as much training as these occupations, there would be more dead cops.

As for the OP, so much for Montreal being the most civilized city on the continent. People have got to start realizing that when a cop says throw down the knife, throw the damn thing down. If a person wants to fight a cop, there's a place for that, it's called court; the chances winning there are a lot better than out in the street.

[guyser]

That's my kind of judge!

Did you forget the link guyser? I sure would like to see.

Apologies.... here is one...

http://www.theinquiry.ca/Alert.hide.php

Click on #2

or

Google Peter Whitmore , or Pedophile Alerts in Ontario. You will get more.

All that those stats tell me is that more in those occupations have been killed/injured than cops because there are more of them in the general population. In any case, I get your point and thanks for doing some research on the matter.

You are welcome.

I doubt there are more pilots than cops, nor are there more lumber cutters than cops. Off the top of my head TO has 5000 cops, so Hamilton London Ottawa et al probably have another 3000. Add in OPP, Barrie, T Bay, and you have a crapload of cops. Do I think there are more than 5000 lumber cutters in Ont, no I dont. I used to cut in Chapleau (scaler/tallyman really) and there did not seem to be that many.

[guyser]

Those stats have jobs in which the people performing those jobs aren't trained at all. I'm familiar with most of these jobs and can assure you they aren't trained like police officers are. If cops had as much training as these occupations, there would be more dead cops.

I would argue the opposite is true.

Pilots certianly get trained far beyond a cops training.Years are spent as co-pilot before Pilot Wings are given. An electrical guy has to do something like 5yrs apprenticeship before he is licenced. (someone sure to come along soon that may know exactly) I dont believe an electrician can do anything on his own without someone siging off on it.

A fisher is likely training from time he can hold a line with his father out on the oceans of our coasts. That is training. The same would go for farmers.

Once a cop has graduated from CO Bick, and is hired, he is given a gun a badge and a car, and hopefully a senoir partner to ride with.

I saw a cop the other day during a stop on Jane St, and hell, I would have thought it a joke. He may have been 22 at most.Sure looked like it.

[blueblood]

I would argue the opposite is true.

Pilots certianly get trained far beyond a cops training.Years are spent as co-pilot before Pilot Wings are given. An electrical guy has to do something like 5yrs apprenticeship before he is licenced. (someone sure to come along soon that may know exactly) I dont believe an electrician can do anything on his own without someone siging off on it.

A fisher is likely training from time he can hold a line with his father out on the oceans of our coasts. That is training. The same would go for farmers.

Once a cop has graduated from CO Bick, and is hired, he is given a gun a badge and a car, and hopefully a senoir partner to ride with.

I saw a cop the other day during a stop on Jane St, and hell, I would have thought it a joke. He may have been 22 at most.Sure looked like it.

My mistake, I was referring to the more "grunt" work on the list. Farmer, logger, fishermen, or roofers don't really take 6 months of courses before they go out and work especially emphasizing safety. Most farm kids I know have their "training" of being put on the machine and figuring out how it works and practicing. Safety training is being told "don't f*** around or you'll get killed" The people who work at the grain terminals get a lot more safety training. Same goes for loggers, given a chainsaw and told to pay attention to watch out for trees.

As for the pilots and apprentice jobs, no argument there.

[guyser]

My mistake, I was referring to the more "grunt" work on the list. Farmer, logger, fishermen, or roofers don't really take 6 months of courses before they go out and work especially emphasizing safety. Most farm kids I know have their "training" of being put on the machine and figuring out how it works and practicing. Safety training is being told "don't f*** around or you'll get killed" The people who work at the grain terminals get a lot more safety training. Same goes for loggers, given a chainsaw and told to pay attention to watch out for trees.

As for the pilots and apprentice jobs, no argument there.

As for the grunt work I can agree . But I would not put loggers farmers and fishermen in that category even though they do grunt a lot.

Loggers per se, no one cutting is inexperienced since a tree is likely 100' or more long. His immediate surroundings can contain as many as 3 crews. When I did it it was amazing that I would not know that there were guys cutting right behind me. One would think you could hear a saw but with so many cutting in the same spot you have no idea. Because I was the guy who determined their pay, I was an enemy and those guys could fell a tree within 3 feet of me....just to scare the pants off me.

Farmers and fisher are taught so much by just being there. Thats training to me. In most cases that is almost a decade of training before being handed the reigns.

[Wilber]

Pilots certianly get trained far beyond a cops training.Years are spent as co-pilot before Pilot Wings are given. An electrical guy has to do something like 5yrs apprenticeship before he is licensed. (someone sure to come along soon that may know exactly) I dont believe an electrician can do anything on his own without someone siging off on it.

Actually all you need is the proper license and type rating. A minimum amount of flying time and training is required to get those but when it comes to co-pilots as you call them (that term isn't used in the industry), most first officers and all airline first officers in Canada have the same license and type rating as the captain. The difference is seniority and of course the bigger paycheck for having to take ultimate responsibility for the flight.

I think the police here are quite well trained, but even more than many other jobs, there is no substitute for experience. The legal minefield they have to walk through is daunting. As well as having to physically deal with bad people, they are required to be part arbitrator, part social worker, part good Samaritan and part bad ass at times. You don't learn all of those in a classroom or overnight.

Certainly the police are nowhere near the top of the list when it comes to occupational fatalities but none of those jobs you listed involve having other people deliberately trying to do you physical harm as part of the job description.

One disadvantage the RCMP often have that municipal forces often don't is a lack of local knowledge. They rarely grew up in the place where they do their policing.