Israel

[Hal 9000]

No, I want to maintain my sense of enlightenment over another man.

Ok, So it wasn't too long ago that some of you people (not sure about you directly) claimed that Hamas was elected and palestine was with them 100%, that the palestinians wanted Hamas to to free them etc etc. Now Hamas has admitted to using human shields, has broken every cease-fire and has shown that their only strategy is to have Israel blow them up and hope for the UN to force Israel into ...whatever. What to do?

Well, now people like you are trying to distance yourselves somewhat from Hamas, yet save face on the issue and maintain you bias against Israel. To do that, you'll have to show that Palastinians (at least the women) are victims of Hamas tyranny. In truth, sure some are victims - but not all. Radical Islam is not just for men. Despite Islam being oppressive toward women, many women are very willing to send their children to die for the cause. I believed this woman 100%.

P.S - I know you're a radical feminist and an elitist, but I do believe you reasonably smart. Be careful how much you defend Jacee, she'll make you look stupid.

PPS - If you want to see what radical Islamic women will do for the cause, have a real close look at the Iran/Iraq war - specifically the human wave tactic that Iran used .

Edited August 8, 2014 by Hal 9000

[Keepitsimple]

Israel wants the land without the Arabs.

So they kill as many as they can.

Gaza is desperate, can't thrive in the conditions imposed by Israel.

So Hamas must fight, must keep fighting for living conditions so children can thrive and not have to fight.

They must fight now.

1) If Israel wants the land - why did they force all of their own settlers out of Gaza and withdraw completely in 2005? Why did they give the entire Sinai back to Egypt in exchange for a peace agreement?

2) If they want to "kill as many as they can" why do they warn Palestinians to vacate the area before dropping bombs?

I'll ask once again Jacee - answer a couple of questions for us please. Have you even read the excerpts from the Hamas Charter that were provided? Are you OK with their core beliefs"

1) All Jews must be eliminated.

2) Peace, negotiations, ceasefires mean nothing except to give them an advantage in achieving their goal of eliminating all Jews.

It would be helpful if you actually participated in a healthy debate on the issues instead of just making things up.....

Edited August 10, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[Rue]

Actually West Coast the notion that Hamas is the only option for Palestinians at this time makes me ask the question those defending Hamas do not answer why?

Is Muslim extremist terrorism the only option for Palestinians?

The answer I here on this board from pro Hamas supporters all the time is its Israel's fault. Israel forced Hamas to come into existence but did it?

Palestinians had options. They had an option when they did not call themselves Palestinians but Arabs, to live peacefully with Israel and side by side Jews. Those that did within Israel have the highest standard of living of any Muslim in the Middle East and have all the legal rights in Israel,Jews do not have and never had in the Muslim world.

Palestinians outside Israel who did not agree with Hamas left for the US, Canada, Europe. Their option was to go to non Muslim countries.

Other Palestinians wanted to go to Arab League nations but were refused citizenship from those countries and placed by Arab League nations in camps.

The Arab League of Nations created the camps not Israel. Nasser created the Gaza strip as an open air prison for Palestinians after the war Nasser started to rid Palestine of Jews failed.

This concept that there are no options for Palestinians and they have no choice but to turn to Hamas is bull.

The Arab League its true robbed them of going to other Arab states as citizens as a n option. Those who decided to leave Palestine found their ability to return to where Israel now is blocked but they had options. They could have lived n Jordan. They were offered automatic citizenship their, a law of return no different than Israel offers Jews. They chose to support Arafat and try kill Hussein and impose rule. when their uprising failed, Palestinians chose to remain in Jordan and be loyal to Hussein others embraced the violence of Fatah and went back into the West Bank.

Palestinians have had options. They were offered peace with the Oslo Accords, then a second time. Sadat tried to offer then a way out and so did Begin.

Then Clinton and Rabin, then Barak and Clinton. They chose to reject anything but going back to Israel and merging it with Jordan.

These people now today calling themselves Palestinian are for the most party descended from Muslim Arab peoples who flooded Palestine because of a British Immigration policy designed to assure Jews could not form a state.

In fact these people came to Palestine and displaced Palestinian Muslims, Christians and Jews. Yet we define all people of Palestine today as any Arab who calls himself that as long as he's not a Jew..why?

Who created this parable-Israel? Who created the myth that Miuslims who displaced Muslim Palestinians are Palestinan?

Who did Palestinians choose as their leaders and why? When the Mullah of Jerusalem embraced Hitler and sat as his guest in Berlin and broadcast daily to Arabs to wipe out the world's Jews, they had options and indeed Arabs rejected the Mullah fought side by side with Jews in the British battalions and during and after WW2 supported Jews who escaped to Palestine and donated land.

To this day the Israel Defence Forces pays homage to it Arab soldiers who fought bravely for Israel.

There are Palestinians who live in Canada, in the US who argue their are options other than terrorism.

There are options other than terror.

Israel had that same debate. Israel had 470,000 Jews in Palestine. No more than 1,000 joined Irgun and about 200 of those then split into the Stern Gang.Mainstream Jews of the Zionist movement denounced them. They said no to terror. Haganah-Palmach fought for Britain in WW2.

Shamir and Begin who embraced terrorism then swore allegiance to a country that required they renounce terrorism.

Sadat said to Palestinians, you have an option. You can live side by side Israel. So did King Hussein. They both created treaties that do just that,

Egypt and Jordan chose another option.

Mr. Abbas has been asked over and over again-disarm your terrorists and recognize our right to exist, and out we go. He will not accept Isralas a Jewish state. He has that option just as Arafat did and he refuses that option. He will not denounce his terrorist wing of the Palestinian Authority. he will not ask Fatah Hawks to disarm.

Hamas has a choice. It can put down its guns and choose to recognize a Jewish state. It will not.

The Arab League as an option. They could demand the Palestinian people put down their weapons, recognize Israel as a Jewish state, and send in their own troops to assure demilitarization of Gaza and the West bank. They will not.

The Arab League chooses instead to cling to the one option-refusal to ever recognize a Jewish state. It will not denounce terrorism whether it be in Syria, Sudan, Lebanon, Iraq, Yemen.

Where is the Arab League today as Sunni extremists commit genocide in Syria and Iraq?

Where were they to denounce the call to slaughter coptic Christians in Egypt by Morsi?

Where where they to say stop the war against the Bebers, the Kurds, the Assyrians, the Druze,t he Bahaiis, the Zoroastreans, on and on

Where are the Palestinian and other Arab world Muslim clergy saying Koran gives us an option-its called living peacefully with others different than us?

Palestinians have that option. Muslims have that option.

Using Israel as the excuse to say there is no option Hamas only exists because of Israel is bull shit. Israel existed long before Hamas and will live long after it passes and goes up internally and splinters into new terror cells who then will reform under a new alpha male.

All Muslims have options. All Palestinians have options. They have the option to embrace moderation and peaceful coexistence with non Muslims,

They have that option and Israel and the West would be their biggest allies and supporters if they chose that route.

Therein likes the irony. The option is always there but it begins and ends with Muslims. Israel has had it. Every time they have extended their hand to try engage in peace talks, in comes another missile and this idiotic response that Hamas demands the war continue but the embargo lifted.

It lives in a world where it has terrorized its people into believing they have only one option. They have another. That is to embrace peace. That is to walk out of Gaza away from the city and sit literally on the ground and ask the world to delver them from the terror cycle.

Hamas won't dare shoot them en masse they walked quietly as Ghandi did to the area outside Gaza.

That is an option. They have the Ghandi option.

[Argus]

I can assure you that Jaycee knows far more than you will ever know.

That does not seems evident in any of her postings on this subject.

Edited August 9, 2014 by Argus

[Argus]

They need Hamas.

They have to fight the blockade, or be starved by Israel.

Let's examine this particularly egregious example of nonsense.

jacee would have it that without Hamas and its valiant efforts, the people of Gaza would starve.

I have an excellent imagination, but it's not up to the task of seeing hundreds of thousands of skeletal figures wobbling through the streets of Gaza as they starve to death without the United States itself landing relief supplies while giving Israel the finger.

It could not POSSIBLY happen. Even attempting it would completely destroy every single bit of support Israel has in the world. So Israel would have to be freaking insane to even attempt it, even if their moral values were low enough their own people would let their government get away with it (which I assure you they would not). So your absurd belief that this is Israel's intent is simply an indication of how little reality intrudes into your mind on this issue.

[WestCoastRunner]

P.S - I know you're a radical feminist and an elitist. Be careful how much you defend Jacee, she'll make you look stupid.

You know I'm a radical feminist and an elitist and yet you have never met me. Interesting!

I think that Jaycee has done an admirable job, be careful that you don't look stupid.

P.S. Can you stop with this attacks on posters.

[WestCoastRunner]

That does not seems evident in any of her postings on this subject.

But yet you are an expert on all things. And you are an expert on who is an expert on all things discussed on this forum. Good for you!

[Keepitsimple]

You know I'm a radical feminist and an elitist and yet you have never met me. Interesting!

I think that Jaycee has done an admirable job, be careful that you don't look stupid.

P.S. Can you stop with this attacks on posters.

Then it would help if Jaycee actually answered the questions that are put to her instead of making stuff up.....so once again:

I'll ask once again Jacee - answer a couple of questions for us please. Have you even read the excerpts from the Hamas Charter that were provided? Are you OK with their core beliefs"

1) All Jews must be eliminated.

2) Peace, negotiations, ceasefires mean nothing except to give them an advantage in achieving their goal of eliminating all Jews.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[Rue]

Say now silence. Imagine that. I have asked Jaycee the exact same questions Keepit. Silence. The silence is loud.

[Big Guy]

It is a very complex situation and killing palestinian civilians isn't the answer .... . That is very unfortunate. It seems there is no end in sight for this region of the world.

I believe that one of the major mistakes that we make when dealing with the Middle East is that we try to understand relationships based on lines on a map - a map drawn by the West. Those who actually live there have allegiances based on hundreds of years of tribal and religious affiliations. Looking at Afghanistan for example, if we looked at that area based on tribes, we would see the Pashtun 50 million members split between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

If we looked at the religious distributions, the Shiite and Sunni divisions clearly define a different set of affiliations than do lines on a map.

If you used a recent Atlas map as a base and overlap maps of tribal divisions and religious divisions then all of those conflicts currently taking place begin to make some sense. The problem with the West is that we tend to see boundaries that we have tried to impose rather then accept the divisions that have occurred through hundreds of years.

The rise of the Jewish state (Israel) was an artificial insertion of many peoples who had not evolved in the region. This group was generally better educated, better organized and had a religious base quite different from the surroundings. I am not laying blame or saying it was good or bad but the insertion of any group artificially into an area will create tensions with the groups already in the region. The Arabs and Jews never seemed to get along and the situation continues to this day.

Unfortunately, The West continues to view this region in the prism of its own choosing while basing decisions and strategy compiled from faulty information and wishful thinking.

I hope it is not too late.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Big Guy

[Bonam]

I believe that one of the major mistakes that we make when dealing with the Middle East is that we try to understand relationships based on lines on a map - a map drawn by the West. Those who actually live there have allegiances based on hundreds of years of tribal and religious affiliations. Looking at Afghanistan for example, if we looked at that area based on tribes, we would see the Pashtun 50 million members split between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

If we looked at the religious distributions, the Shiite and Sunni divisions clearly define a different set of affiliations than do lines on a map.

If you used a recent Atlas map as a base and overlap maps of tribal divisions and religious divisions then all of those conflicts currently taking place begin to make some sense. The problem with the West is that we tend to see boundaries that we have tried to impose rather then accept the divisions that have occurred through hundreds of years.

That is why we should let these people fight it out and end up with natural borders based on their own allegiances, rather than trying to intervene every time there is a conflict.

The rise of the Jewish state (Israel) was an artificial insertion of many peoples who had not evolved in the region. This group was generally better educated, better organized and had a religious base quite different from the surroundings. I am not laying blame or saying it was good or bad but the insertion of any group artificially into an area will create tensions with the groups already in the region.

Jews have lived in Israel continuously for thousands of years. The migration of European Jews to Israel which increased Israel's Jewish population is no more an "artificial insertion" than dozens of other migrations of people in the area, which you can freely learn about if you have any interest.

The Arabs and Jews never seemed to get along and the situation continues to this day.

Understatement of the day.

I hope it is not too late.

Too late for what? Conflict will continue in the middle-east as it always has, meanwhile the rest of the world will keep on going, as it always has.

[Big Guy]

...

Jews have lived in Israel continuously for thousands of years. The migration of European Jews to Israel which increased Israel's Jewish population is no more an "artificial insertion" than dozens of other migrations of people in the area, which you can freely learn about if you have any interest.

...

I took your advice and checked my references. The population of Israel doubled from 1948 to 1951 (about 800,000 to 1,500,000). Either there were a lot of unexpected births or there was a tremendous migration of Jews into Israel. Since those figures are not natural increases then they must be based on some external force. Thank you for you suggestions. We both expect accuracy on this board.

[Bonam]

I took your advice and checked my references. The population of Israel doubled from 1948 to 1951 (about 800,000 to 1,500,000). Either there were a lot of unexpected births or there was a tremendous migration of Jews into Israel. Since those figures are not natural increases then they must be based on some external force. Thank you for you suggestions. We both expect accuracy on this board.

Yes obviously a lot of Jews migrated to Israel. I suggest you reread my post, as I did not state or imply that that was not the case. Rather, I said that it is typical of many other migrations of people in the area. Consider, for example, that from 1931 to 1947, the Arab population of the Mandate of Palestine increased from 760,000 to 1,180,000, also as a result of migration.

Furthermore, a lot of the Jews that arrived in Israel from 1948-1951 were those from surrounding Arab countries, who, at the time of the formation of Israel, significantly ramped up their attempts to harass, expel, and exterminate their Jewish minorities. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

Edited August 10, 2014 by Bonam

[Topaz]

Speaking of Israel, the Canadian Jewish Community, is going to nominate Harper for the Nobel Peace Prize!! Harper has received many awards from this organization and ONLY they would even think about this idea but its good for a laugh. All this is in the Global and Mail online and one comment said, this would be like giving Rob Ford a moral rectitude award!! Maybe Harper could take the surplus and buy the prize for himself.

.

[marcus]

Witness the destruction, before the media takes your attention away to ISIS, Ukraine and ebola and forgets about a total of 2,168 people killed, 521 of them children, during Israel’s 51-day bombardment of Gaza.

This is what our government supported - All hail Harper and his nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize:

Edited August 31, 2014 by marcus

[Guest]

Speaking of Israel, the Canadian Jewish Community, is going to nominate Harper for the Nobel Peace Prize!! Harper has received many awards from this organization and ONLY they would even think about this idea but its good for a laugh. All this is in the Global and Mail online and one comment said, this would be like giving Rob Ford a moral rectitude award!! Maybe Harper could take the surplus and buy the prize for himself.

.

Well, they gave Henry Kissinger one. And Yasser Arafat. They gave Obama one for nothing at all.

They don't mean very much.

[marcus]

And the land theft continues:

Britain 'deplores' Israel decision to claim West Bank land

LONDON (Reuters) - The British government said on Monday it deplored an Israeli decision to appropriate a large swathe of land inside the occupied West Bank, saying the move would seriously damage Israel's international reputation.

On Sunday, Israel announced the appropriation of land in the Etzion Jewish settlement bloc near Bethlehem, a move which an anti-settlement group said was the biggest such claim in 30 years.

"The UK deplores the Israeli government's expropriation of 988 acres (1.54 square miles) of land around the settlement of Etzion," British Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said in a statement which echoed U.S. calls to reverse the decision.

"This is a particularly ill-judged decision that comes at a time when the priority must be to build on the ceasefire in Gaza. It will do serious damage to Israel’s standing in the international community."

[bush_cheney2004]

How ironic, as the UK was instrumental in establishing a "Jewish homeland" in the first place on "occupied land". Congratulations to Israel for consolidating its position on another square mile or two of "Dirt Farm" land, if only to demonstrate that terror attacks from Gaza will have the opposite desired effect on occupied land (<> "land for peace").

As for the "international community", Israel should tell it to go bark at the moon.

[jacee]

Congratulations to Israel for consolidating its position on another square mile or two ...

Congratulations?!

.

[Keepitsimple]

UN Condemns Israel's Latest War Crime: Not Sharing Iron Dome with Hamas.

That's the latest inane, outrageous statement to come from this gang....and for those who feel the UNHRC plays some sort of balanced, honourable role......

While Israel is the only country in the world that remains a standing agenda item at every session, the human rights body has to date said nothing about the recent Russian-backed shooting down of Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 over Ukraine, nor has it condemned the ongoing mass killings in Syria or South Sudan. North Korea, China, Pakistan, Syria, Sudan, or Iran, all recent or current members of the council, have never been condemned by it.

The UNHRC has never formally mentioned “Hamas” by name, let alone condemned it.

From 2006 through 2012, Israel was formally condemned by the UNHRC at least 47 times.

Link: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/31/UN-Condemns-Israel-s-Latest-War-Crime-Not-Sharing-Iron-Dome-with-Hamas

Edited September 2, 2014 by Keepitsimple

[Moonlight Graham]

And the land theft continues:

Britain 'deplores' Israel decision to claim West Bank land

Disgusting. And the US and others will continue flooding aid into Israel.

[marcus]

That's the latest inane, outrageous statement to come from this gang....and for those who feel the UNHRC plays some sort of balanced, honourable role......

Link: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/31/UN-Condemns-Israel-s-Latest-War-Crime-Not-Sharing-Iron-Dome-with-Hamas

Israel's human rights violations have been going on for decades unlike the list mentioned in the article, which have happened in the past few months. Regardless, your article is wrong:

U.N. to investigate alleged human rights abuses by ISIS

Edited September 3, 2014 by marcus

[bush_cheney2004]

Wow....that's just terrible. More aid to Israel...more attacks on ISIS.

[Rue]

I took your advice and checked my references. The population of Israel doubled from 1948 to 1951 (about 800,000 to 1,500,000). Either there were a lot of unexpected births or there was a tremendous migration of Jews into Israel. Since those figures are not natural increases then they must be based on some external force. Thank you for you suggestions. We both expect accuracy on this board.

So you expect accuracy on this board to you. Good. Now go tell me how many people came to Palestine from outside of Palestine no different than Jews.

Well?

You have no clue.

You will point out a Jew who came to Palestine from outside Palestine but stay silent on all the non Palestinian Muslims that flooded Palestine. Why the double standard?

Go on tell me for the sake of accuracy how many of the Muslims who called themselves Palestinians or today descendants of Palestinians are in fact not descendants of Palestinians and were never Palestinians but in fact simply Muslims who flooded in during the 20's to 40's.

For accuracy's sake try respond soon. I will give you a hint-the vast majority of the people who claim to be descended from Palestinians are in fact descended from Muslims who displaced Palestinians and those Muslims came from outside Palestine.

In fact the actual displacement of Palestinians you want to blame on them foreigner Jews was in fact done by Muslism who flooded the area from Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and the Arabian peninsula.

But hey, you were getting around to that.

[Rue]

Israel's human rights violations have been going on for decades unlike the list mentioned in the article, which have happened in the past few months. Regardless, your article is wrong:

U.N. to investigate alleged human rights abuses by ISIS

Right and of course the human rights violations going on for centuries in the Arab League nations, and that have been committed buy a litany of Muslim extremist terrorist groups especially those in the last few months, you'll be right there demanding they be investigated as well.

I know that because I know you would never come on this board and ignore the autrocities of Hamas or in Syria, by Hezbollah, Sudan, Iraq, in Nigeria, Pakistan, India, Yemen, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Rue