Canadians reject the claim they live on "stolen indigenous land".

[blackbird]

These land acknowledgements that are being made frequently by politicians are not wise.  It only provokes FN activists to demand more and the acknowledgements will be used by FN activists to make further demands and claims.  White man will be paying forever.

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Settle what ? exactly....

Do we settle up with other races, what about the Chinese, or African Americans, or any other race we have upset or destroyed in our history...Do indigenous people pay for those that they have conquered or destroyed...how far back do we go....

Until Indigenous pay taxes like everyone else or collect their own taxes to pay for their own health and education, they will remain a kept people.  That’s just the way it goes. Either demonstrate true self-sustainability or pay the cost of your upkeep by paying into the system.  Everyone with a brain sees the two-tier citizenship and the dependency the Indian Act and reserve system creates, yet it’s the Indigenous who want to keep it.  Stoke the past injustice narratives, demand more money.  Keep needling Canada, but the price of this game is never breaking the cycle of dependence.

Edited Saturday at 03:52 AM by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

35 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Until Indigenous pay taxes like everyone else or collect their own taxes to pay for their own health and education, they will remain a kept people.  That’s just the way it goes. Either demonstrate true self-sustainability or pay the cost of your upkeep by paying into the system.  Everyone with a brain sees the two-tier citizenship and the dependency the Indian Act and reserve system creates, yet it’s the Indigenous who want to keep it.  Stoke the past injustice narratives, demand more money.  Keep needling Canada, but the price of this game is never breaking the cycle of dependence.

You cannot be autonomous living in your mother's basement. 

When they can care for themselves without any help from others, the way the rest of us do, then they will live at the whom of those of us who do 

[Venandi]

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Until Indigenous pay taxes like everyone else or collect their own taxes to pay for their own health and education, they will remain a kept people.

I hesitate to even mention this as I haven't given it a lot of consideration, but I was thinking the same thing just the other day but within the context of what the government already spends annually...  some $30 billion or so.

In 2024 there was a proposed housing top up of another $9 billion; $39 billion is an awful lot of money and I don't think that anyone is actually getting their monies worth here. 

Admittedly my grasp of the numbers is a bit weak but apparently there are some 1.8 million natives in Canada and I'm guessing that's both status and non status folks. If I did the math right that comes to about $22,000 per person that could be paid out tax free in the absence of maintaining a large federal bureaucracy.  

I'd take that a step further and suggest that it should only be paid to status holders who actually live on reserves... certainly a much smaller number and thus a higher payout. And before Herb's underwear gets in a knot, my grandkids are non-status so I really have no dog in this particular fight.

But what if, instead of maintaining a bloated government department, the money was paid out individually and individual nations (bands would be better IMO) had the power and autonomy to tax and spend in support of their own purposes and priorities at a local level? 

Probably not an original idea but I wonder if such a thing is even worthy of consideration. The current state of affairs seems more cumbersome, less equitable and more wasteful than the alternative by comparison, at least IMO (which remains malleable BTW). 

If nothing else, natives in Canada would have the autonomy and individual responsibility they never had before and Herb wouldn't be able to blame whitey for any mismanagement or corruption.  

Is that a dumb idea?

18 inches of overhead cover established... clear to engage.

Edited Saturday at 10:28 AM by Venandi

[Zeitgeist]

4 hours ago, Venandi said:

I hesitate to even mention this as I haven't given it a lot of consideration, but I was thinking the same thing just the other day but within the context of what the government already spends annually...  some $30 billion or so.

In 2024 there was a proposed housing top up of another $9 billion; $39 billion is an awful lot of money and I don't think that anyone is actually getting their monies worth here. 

Admittedly my grasp of the numbers is a bit weak but apparently there are some 1.8 million natives in Canada and I'm guessing that's both status and non status folks. If I did the math right that comes to about $22,000 per person that could be paid out tax free in the absence of maintaining a large federal bureaucracy.  

I'd take that a step further and suggest that it should only be paid to status holders who actually live on reserves... certainly a much smaller number and thus a higher payout. And before Herb's underwear gets in a knot, my grandkids are non-status so I really have no dog in this particular fight.

But what if, instead of maintaining a bloated government department, the money was paid out individually and individual nations (bands would be better IMO) had the power and autonomy to tax and spend in support of their own purposes and priorities at a local level? 

Probably not an original idea but I wonder if such a thing is even worthy of consideration. The current state of affairs seems more cumbersome, less equitable and more wasteful than the alternative by comparison, at least IMO (which remains malleable BTW). 

If nothing else, natives in Canada would have the autonomy and individual responsibility they never had before and Herb wouldn't be able to blame whitey for any mismanagement or corruption.  

Is that a dumb idea?

18 inches of overhead cover established... clear to engage.

I think it’s a creative solution that certainly moves the needle closer to autonomy.  I still think that the government needs to get out of the business of having an Indigenous Affairs Department and budget, whatever that is now.  A kind of final settlement needs to happen.  No one is going to take away the reserves and reservations. Probably the status cards will have to be maintained only to determine who gets to stay on the reserve so to speak, but the tax exemption should actually be a tax swap, meaning that if you don’t pay the feds, you must pay the rez.   Gradually, but ideally quickly, that health and education expense should shift to the reserve and paid through local tax collection.  This effectively turns reserves into their own provinces, except that locals won’t have to pay federal taxes if they pay the rez.  Yes some will leave the rez permanently and live and pay taxes to the Feds and provinces like the rest of us, but there’s always the option for holders of status to move back.

If you think that all status holders should receive an annual amount of money like an annuity, in addition to what I’ve said, I think that’s going to maintain the dependency, because presumably someone can live in free housing on the reserve, collect the annuity, and never have to earn an income.  I think that’s an unhealthy moral hazard that leads to intergenerational welfare recipients living in publicly funded housing.  It will always be a sad kind of subsistence. Indigenous do need to be able to benefit from the resources under their dedicated lands, but they also shouldn’t be able unilaterally shut down interprovincial projects.

If there must be a permanent annual annuity, it should be taxed by the Rez/feds to pay for local health and education, so that it’s clear to everyone that this money is coming from Canadian taxpayers.  We may be stuck with the annuity, but it shouldn’t be big enough to allow someone to be a total loafer.  The Indigenous population is actually a growing population and the expenses to taxpayers are growing, especially as the settler colonial narrative of victimhood is retold, often involving unverifiable events and people who aren’t alive today. That financial burden is paid by people who had nothing to do with those events.

There’s another big piece to this puzzle that impacts all Canadians, which is that we may all have to end up on an annual annuity or Universal Basic Income as automation and A.I. makes jobs redundant, so maybe the reform of Indigenous Affairs can coincide with the implementation of UBI, such that everyone gets enough free money to subsist and can supplement the amount with income from employment.  Beyond a certain income level it starts to get clawed back.  That might effectively end the two tier citizenship of the Indian Act without taking away the reserves or status. However, the moral hazard of becoming a loafer will remain.  Perhaps every society faces this hazard.  Some work hard and are motivated to be productive.  Others do little with what’s handed to them, and in fairness, some are handed more than others. There’s probably no avoiding this stratification, though some funding formulas probably do instil more drive and motivation than others.  Tough but important questions…

Edited Saturday at 03:05 PM by Zeitgeist

[ExFlyer]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I think it’s a creative solution that certainly moves the needle closer to autonomy.  I still think that the government needs to get out of the business of having an Indigenous Affairs Department and budget, whatever that is now.  A kind of final settlement needs to happen.  No one is going to take away the reserves and reservations. Probably the status cards will have to be maintained only to determine who gets to stay on the reserve so to speak, but the tax exemption should actually be a tax swap, meaning that if you don’t pay the feds, you must pay the rez.   Gradually, but ideally quickly, that health and education expense should shift to the reserve and paid through local tax collection.  This effectively turns reserves into their own provinces, except that locals won’t have to pay federal taxes if they pay the rez.  Yes some will leave the rez permanently and live and pay taxes to the Feds and provinces like the rest of us, but there’s always the option for holders of status to move back.

If you think that all status holders should receive an annual amount of money like an annuity, in addition to what I’ve said, I think that’s going to maintain the dependency, because presumably someone can live in free housing on the reserve, collect the annuity, and never have to earn an income.  I think that’s an unhealthy moral hazard that leads to intergenerational welfare recipients living in publicly funded housing.  It will always be a sad kind of subsistence. Indigenous do need to be able to benefit from the resources under their dedicated lands, but they also shouldn’t be able unilaterally shut down interprovincial projects.

If there must be a permanent annual annuity, it should be taxed by the Rez/feds to pay for local health and education, so that it’s clear to everyone that this money is coming from Canadian taxpayers.  We may be stuck with the annuity, but it shouldn’t be big enough to allow someone to be a total loafer.  The Indigenous population is actually a growing population and the expenses to taxpayers are growing, especially as the settler colonial narrative of victimhood is retold, often involving unverifiable events and people who aren’t alive today. That financial burden is paid by people who had nothing to do with those events.

There’s another big piece to this puzzle that impacts all Canadians, which is that we may all have to end up on an annual annuity or Universal Basic Income as automation and A.I. makes jobs redundant, so maybe the reform of Indigenous Affairs can coincide with the implementation of UBI, such that everyone gets enough free money to subsist and can supplement the amount with income from employment.  Beyond a certain income level it starts to get clawed back.  That might effectively end the two tier citizenship of the Indian Act without taking away the reserves or status. However, the moral hazard of becoming a loafer will remain.  Perhaps every society faces this hazard.  Some work hard and are motivated to be productive.  Others take advantage of what’s handed to them and do little with it.  There’s probably no avoiding this stratification.

I think very few people truly understand the extent the indigenous are supported by the Feds and Provinces.

In so many, almost all, indigenous "reserves", "communities", "towns", "villages", "nations", "tribes" or whatever they are calling them are supported 100% by the feds and provinces.

The housing and infrastructure is all provided free of charge. Any support work is provided free or, if the residents are doing the work on the infrastructure, they get paid by the feds or provinces. That is the only source of income for them. 

There is little if any work in those places so...what moneys they have, they get from the feds or provinces.

Almost every department in the federal government has indigenous clauses where if money so spent, a certain amount has to go to the indigenous, whether they do anything for it or not.

There is no way to get around it, almost the entire indigenous society (and there are a few notable exceptions) is a permanent welfare state for as long as Canada has been around. 

I do not believe we can make them a viable part of Canadian society anymore. We have turned them into a dependant society.

[Zeitgeist]

15 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I think very few people truly understand the extent the indigenous are supported by the Feds and Provinces.

In so many, almost all, indigenous "reserves", "communities", "towns", "villages", "nations", "tribes" or whatever they are calling them are supported 100% by the feds and provinces.

The housing and infrastructure is all provided free of charge. Any support work is provided free or, if the residents are doing the work on the infrastructure, they get paid by the feds or provinces. That is the only source of income for them. 

There is little if any work in those places so...what moneys they have, they get from the feds or provinces.

Almost every department in the federal government has indigenous clauses where if money so spent, a certain amount has to go to the indigenous, whether they do anything for it or not.

There is no way to get around it, almost the entire indigenous society (and there are a few notable exceptions) is a permanent welfare state for as long as Canada has been around. 

I do not believe we can make them a viable part of Canadian society anymore. We have turned them into a dependant society.

I generally agree and I think that anyone who knows the facts would also agree.  The question is how to turn this segment of society from a burden into an asset, not just for Canada but for themselves.  No doubt there are successful Indigenous and successful bands, but not enough.

This is very much a Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand problem.  The Americans simply decided a long time ago that this is what we’re willing to accept and if you don’t like it, too bad, assimilate like everyone else.  It’s actually a selling feature for Canada joining the U.S..  I don’t think the Americans understand how much of a hassle and expense the Indigenous file is in Canada.  Quebec is also a strain.  Nevertheless, Canadians so far are up for managing it.  I don’t think the Yanks would be nearly as sympathetic.

[ExFlyer]

48 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I generally agree and I think that anyone who knows the facts would also agree.  The question is how to turn this segment of society from a burden into an asset, not just for Canada but for themselves.  No doubt there are successful Indigenous and successful bands, but not enough.

This is very much a Canadian, Australian, and New Zealand problem.  The Americans simply decided a long time ago that this is what we’re willing to accept and if you don’t like it, too bad, assimilate like everyone else.  It’s actually a selling feature for Canada joining the U.S..  I don’t think the Americans understand how much of a hassle and expense the Indigenous file is in Canada.  Quebec is also a strain.  Nevertheless, Canadians so far are up for managing it.  I don’t think the Yanks would be nearly as sympathetic.

I think the indigenous leadership has to help it's people to become contributing remembers of Canadian society instead of a burden to all Canadian taxpayers.

The problem with the indigenous leadership is the hundreds of thousands of dollars they receive every year for being "leaders". They would lose that. Their lifestyles would take a shitkicking and they do not want that.

Our Canadian society has become too "soft", "kind" "gentle"  and would never force the reality hammer to hit them on the head and we will continue to pay them for doing nothing for themselves, let alone Canadian society.

You are generally right, the Americans said, shit or get off the pot because they are not filing the indigenous bank accounts. 

I will not get started on Quebec LOL

Edited Saturday at 04:24 PM by ExFlyer

[Zeitgeist]

33 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I think the indigenous leadership has to help it's people to become contributing remembers of Canadian society instead of a burden to all Canadian taxpayers.

The problem with the indigenous leadership is the hundreds of thousands of dollars they receive every year for being "leaders". They would lose that. Their lifestyles would take a shitkicking and they do not want that.

Our Canadian society has become too "soft", "kind" "gentle"  and would never force the reality hammer to hit them on the head and we will continue to pay them for doing nothing for themselves, let alone Canadian society.

You are generally right, the Americans said, shit or get off the pot because they are not filing the indigenous bank accounts. 

I will not get started on Quebec LOL

I think this is the problem for Canada: We are essentially a boutique country where our taxpayers and productivity take a hit for being a kind of welfare state for preferred identity groups.  Quebec will shoot itself in the foot economically to maintain its fascist language laws and treating the rest of Canada like a foreign country.  The Indigenous leaders will maintain their culture of dependence to benefit themselves at the expense of the economic and mental wellbeing of their populations. Canada will be held back economically to satisfy these identity lobbies. Canada is a socialist cultural protectorate where some groups are propped up at everyone else’s expense. I guess Canadians will decide whether this is worth maintaining.  It’s annoying.

Edited Saturday at 04:56 PM by Zeitgeist

[PIK]

On 6/12/2025 at 3:09 PM, herbie said:

Oh FFS did the settlers BUY the land from tribes? Did they they negotiate or compensate for more than a little of what they took?

Well if you didn't BUY IT and it wasn't GIVEN then you STOLE it. Buy a f*cking dictionary.

Natives aren't native, they were the 1st of many waves of people that came here. They lost it fair and square. Just like the whites are losing it now. 

[Zeitgeist]

11 minutes ago, PIK said:

Natives aren't native, they were the 1st of many waves of people that came here. They lost it fair and square. Just like the whites are losing it now. 

Canadians need to understand that country will only survive and thrive by winning the ideological war against people with views like Herbie’s.  His ilk are destroying the country. 

[herbie]

Sorry blockheads.

Your opinions are ones with the intent of destroying the country. Keep you thumbs up your arses and heads in the sand like good cantservatives.

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

Sorry blockheads.

Your opinions are ones with the intent of destroying the country. Keep you thumbs up your arses and heads in the sand like good cantservatives.

Buddy, get off the welfare and pot and come back to us when you’re sober and 10 years older.

[Political Smash]

On 6/11/2025 at 1:34 PM, blackbird said:

"

A majority of Canadians reject the idea they live on stolen Indigenous land, and the older people are, the more likely they are to say they don’t, according to a new public opinion poll.

Among all respondents across Canada, 52 per cent said they did not live on stolen Indigenous land, with 27 per cent saying they do. The remaining 21 per cent said they didn’t know or declined to answer."

Canadians reject that they live on 'stolen' Indigenous land, although new poll reveals a generational divide

A higher percentage of people in the young age group reportedly think we live on stolen indigenous land.  That is a good reason why the voting age should not be lowered.  It appears they have been brainwashed, perhaps by the woke school system.  So lowering the voting age, would give more power to young people with irrational woke ideas such as the idea that liberals push that Canadians are illegal settlers and colonials and stole the land. 

The truth is FNs were made up of many bands that were scattered across north America and did not occupy the large areas geographic areas which they now claim as their "traditional territory".  So the claims by some FNs that thousands of square kilometers is their traditional territory is fictitious nonsense.  The claims are made to get more money and control over land out of government.  The BC NDP is giving in to many of their claims and is even beginning to shut down provincial parks so natives can hold so-called cultural ceremonies without the presence on non-natives.

By First Nations own submission in 2012, there were 18 000 000 of them scattered across North America when settlers arrived. That is enough people to moderately populate an island the size of Cuba scattered across North America. They didn't even occupy 1% of North America and there was no country.  Now some so called First Nations work with WEF to assist with the dividing and conquering of Canada. 

[Venandi]

On 6/14/2025 at 10:41 PM, herbie said:

Sorry blockheads.

Your opinions are ones with the intent of destroying the country. Keep you thumbs up your arses and heads in the sand like good cantservatives.

Tactical assessment of the issue at hand:

 

Forum discussion of the specifics and possible solutions:

 

Herb's contribution:

Edited yesterday at 09:36 AM by Venandi

[Nationalist]

On 6/11/2025 at 3:41 PM, herbie said:

So what? The majority is often wrong. More so when they're prompted with lies and hatred by people like you.

You mean people like this...

Or this...

 

[Nationalist]

On 6/13/2025 at 4:21 PM, herbie said:

Settling native issues is just too "woke" for you is it?
Well that's about the lamest thing yet, at least other's had objections based on reason.

As are mine for. It's time to settle what should have been done years ago, not put it off even longer.

You want fcking reason? I'll give you fcking reason.

The Indians signed a contract with the crown that gives them land to be Indian on, in return for help fighting off the Americans. 

They made their bed...and you are welcome to go lie in it with them.

Edited yesterday at 12:22 PM by Nationalist

[blackbird]

On 6/11/2025 at 12:41 PM, herbie said:

So what? The majority is often wrong. More so when they're prompted with lies and hatred by people like you.

You better start paying monthly rent to the nearest band council.  If you're not paying and living on stolen land, you are a hypcrite.

[cougar]

7 hours ago, blackbird said:

You better start paying monthly rent to the nearest band council.  If you're not paying and living on stolen land, you are a hypcrite.

He is already paying.  The tax money government collects is then given to the Natives as pad rent.

[cougar]

9 hours ago, Nationalist said:

The Indians signed a contract with the crown ......

under duress maybe?

Nothing seems to be set in stone any more.

You get a new politician and they are ready to undo things the nation has been slowly putting together over decades.

Scary, but this is the reality.

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

under duress maybe?

Nothing seems to be set in stone any more.

You get a new politician and they are ready to undo things the nation has been slowly putting together over decades.

Scary, but this is the reality.

It's my understanding that the Indians wanted nothing to do with the colonies and got what they asked for by their own actions. It was short sighted and self destructive.

[cougar]

13 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

It's my understanding that the Indians wanted nothing to do with the colonies and got what they asked for by their own actions. It was short sighted and self destructive.

Nobody can tell for sure how it was or what it was.  One can assume the Whites did a contract that benefited them the most.

Were the FN's explained what they were signing?  Did they understand?  Could they be considered informed and reasonable?  Did all accept and signs?   Were the chiefs coerced , bribed or intimidated to sign?

One has to look at the broader scope and picture.    

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, cougar said:

Nobody can tell for sure how it was or what it was.  One can assume the Whites did a contract that benefited them the most.

Were the FN's explained what they were signing?  Did they understand?  Could they be considered informed and reasonable?  Did all accept and signs?   Were the chiefs coerced , bribed or intimidated to sign?

One has to look at the broader scope and picture.    

No one does not have to look at this broader scope. All these years...centuries...Canada has been trying to get the Indians to join society. At every turn, these jack-asses have refused.

I'm tired of this BS. If the Indians wanna sh1t in the woods...good on 'em. But the gravey train must end.

[cougar]

33 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

At every turn, these jack-asses have refused.

I'm tired of this BS. If the Indians wanna sh1t in the woods...good on 'em. But the gravey train must end.

I kind of agree.  To me there should be two options:

1. The FN's start identifying only as Canadians and are treated equally by the laws in terms of rights and responsibilities, taxation included

2. Those who still want to identify as FN's only can be given their lands back but nothing else - no more payments; no more trade deals, no more access to the provincial services and healthcare - they can consider themselves their own entity.   Exporting anything out of their land can be subject to tariffs or taxes.    If they can't survive on their own, not Canada's problem.

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, cougar said:

I kind of agree.  To me there should be two options:

1. The FN's start identifying only as Canadians and are treated equally by the laws in terms of rights and responsibilities, taxation included

2. Those who still want to identify as FN's only can be given their lands back but nothing else - no more payments; no more trade deals, no more access to the provincial services and healthcare - they can consider themselves their own entity.   Exporting anything out of their land can be subject to tariffs or taxes.    If they can't survive on their own, not Canada's problem.

1. ✔️ 

2. I would approach this differently. I would say...'Ya wanna live on a reserve? Do it. The tax break is now gone, and as with property rights for all Canadians, the government may force you to sell portions of your land for "the greater good". On the other hand, should you choose to not live on a reserve, you will be accepted and ushered into Canadian society as full equals. Proper schooling for your children and much more opportunity.'

Take ur pick...