Army Guy Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 14 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: I would say that if Canadians could convert their Canadian dollars at par with the USD, that would be a big incentive, but don’t forget that simply converting to a state would essentially reduce our political representation within a much bigger country. It also gives Americans unassailable access to our huge resource and land assets. Diane Francis wrote about this and said that Canada should only join the U.S. if Canadians are essentially paid for it. I don’t see the Yanks doing that unless the price was relatively small. The bottom line is that Canadians don’t want to give up their sovereignty. I also don’t think they’ll give up their healthcare or gun control. Americans won’t accept a flood of new Democratic representatives into their Congress. That leaves economic union as the only acceptable option for further integration of our economies, but I’m not even sure Canadians are receptive to any other option right now than increasing our independence from the U.S. Most Canadians and probably most people around the world don’t think they can trust the U.S. to keep promises right now and no one wants to be at the mercy of unpredictable destructive forces. How would it diminish our political representation compared to what we have right now...there are parts of Canada that really have no say in how canada is run...take a look at atlantic Canada for instance... Or Alberta.... The same resources the liberals' have made almost inaccessible through legislation....US would need to have something for their troubles... Canadians don't really care about their sovereignty, or they would have taken actions to protect it...Yes health care that is in crisis mode right now...Americans seem to be getting along just fine with what they have...Gun control ya how is that working out for us...punishes law abiding gun owners while criminals can get whatever guns they want ... I'm sure that Canadians will find their way through the American political party system just fine, not all Canadians are going to drift towards the democrats side of the force... Canadians love money more than anything else...economic union would make a great deal of sense... Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
Dougie93 Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 15 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: If we do this we have to go big and ensure that our infrastructure allows for international exports and domestic consumption of our oil and gas. Basically we have to gear up for total independence from the U.S., including eventually militarily. It’s going to require massive investment and take time. Interestingly, Carney was talking today about a complete reorientation of Canada’s economy. I’m surprised that he’s thinking on that level. It’s middle power thinking, as though we have the wealth of a UK or France instead of a modern Roman province. I believe he’s right. Canada is invoking war for national survival against the United States of America, an enemy vastly more powerful than Nazi Germany & Imperial Japan combined, Canada alone in the face of it, so by rights, Canada should be at outbreak of World War Two levels of mobilization, right now, Order In Council formally declaring the United States to be an Enemy of the Crown, immediate suspension of all military & security cooperation with the United States, State of Emergency : Emergencies Act : conscription of assets, resources and personnel as necessary, Stage 4 mobilization of the armed forces, Primary & Supplementary Reserve, to include all military personnel released within the last five years called back to duty, infrastructure projects placed under state control ; command economy resource exports to the United States suspended, overriding the Provinces by the Emergencies Act national mobilization itself as economic stimulus, America has already crossed your red line, moving at breakneck speed, Canada is on the front line, this is no man's land here now, the population must be psychologically indoctrinated for war measures; now is the time for shock & awe therein, there is no point in trying to negotiate with Trump, that's a fool's errand, Quote
Dougie93 Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 23 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Right, and Carney is also talking about complete made in Canada supply chains for Canadian auto production, which is an inefficient alternative to the current supply chain which takes advantage of centres of excellence and locally available resources. You end up with a factory on each side of the border producing the same vehicles merely to dodge tariffs. It’s just not smart business. Of course no one country, including the USA, can produce every model of vehicle in existence, so the range of affordable options to consumers decreases along with competitiveness, making cars less cutting edge, because the market is artificially controlled Soviet style. At least Carney is only proposing this as as a response to tariffs. I would suggest building 2 or 3 models of Canadian vehicles that aren’t made anywhere else, so that they can be sold both for export and domestically. They have to be special and meet the needs of most consumers, so basically a small fuel efficient vehicle, a larger family sedan, and/or a crossover family car. Make hybrid and EV versions. I wouldn’t duplicate any existing products. I’m sure China and other international players could be partners in some of this work. Maybe bringing in the full battery of Chinese autos and signing a security agreements with China is an option we need to keep on the table. Diminished production resulting from tariffs in the auto and steel and aluminum industries should be directed to important long-term infrastructure, trade, security, and national independence needs: east-west pipelines, refineries, LNG ports, high-speed rail, military expansion, northern bases and ports. There’s plenty of work for these industries to do without having to pay people to stay home or pay companies to shutter facilities. The test for Carney is whether he can prioritize the Canadian economy over his Net Zero international interests, which are radically stakeholder capitalist. We’re going to have to gear up for total independence from the US market and security arrangement while crafting a potential long-term trade pact with the US from a position of strength, understanding that the U.S. could renege at any time. Tall order but what choice is there? I'm already going with Carney, Defence of the British Crown in North America supersedes any quarrels I have with the Liberals, the CPC is compromised, not only MAGA sympathizers, but looking to make a deal with Trump ; which is a trap only the Liberal base fears & loathes MAGA to the threshold of war measures, I have no partisan loyalty but to the House of Windsor, any and all measures necessary therein to defend HM The King : Cuidich 'n Righ Quote
Zeitgeist Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: Canada is invoking war for national survival against the United States of America, an enemy vastly more powerful than Nazi Germany & Imperial Japan combined, Canada alone in the face of it, so by rights, Canada should be at outbreak of World War Two levels of mobilization, right now, Order In Council formally declaring the United States to be an Enemy of the Crown, immediate suspension of all military & security cooperation with the United States, State of Emergency : Emergencies Act : conscription of assets, resources and personnel as necessary, Stage 4 mobilization of the armed forces, Primary & Supplementary Reserve, to include all military personnel released within the last five years called back to duty, infrastructure projects placed under state control ; command economy resource exports to the United States suspended, overriding the Provinces by the Emergencies Act national mobilization itself as economic stimulus, America has already crossed your red line, moving at breakneck speed, Canada is on the front line, this is no man's land here now, the population must be psychologically indoctrinated for war measures; now is the time for shock & awe therein, there is no point in trying to negotiate with Trump, that's a fool's errand, However, we must maintain the kind of Churchillian calm alacrity and wit that keeps it very clear internationally who caused this mess. Britain, Europe, South America, East Asia, and Africa are all impacted by American mercantile aggression and threats to sovereignty. Any U.S. failure to respect sovereign territories and hard-won post WW-2 alliances puts smaller countries and economies at risk of aggression from the largest powers. I wondered when this kind of crisis would happen, but I knew it would come eventually, after the Greatest Generation died off and the younger, weaker generations forgot how hard our current world order and rule of law were to come by. The checks on executive US power are being tested, but so is the loyalty of our allies and the willingness of citizens to stand up for democratic principles. Canada’s show of strength will be our ability to adjust our economy and make sacrifices for a way of life. The good news is that we are now forced to articulate those values. The world wants to know that such values exist and can be successfully defended. Edited March 28 by Zeitgeist Quote
Iceni warrior Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 2 hours ago, CdnFox said: TBF even if you are those you're STILL a foreigner. There are no natives. So there are no foreigners. Cultures evolve, suck it up. Quote
Dougie93 Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: However, we must maintain the kind of Churchillian calm alacrity and wit that keeps it very clear internationally who caused this mess. nobody thinks Canada caused this, not even MAGA supporters, even MAGA bros are saying " WTF, why are we attacking Canada ? " Quote
Dougie93 Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Canada’s show of strength will be our ability to adjust our economy and make sacrifices for a way of life. Canada's peacetime political system is too sclerotic to move fast enough, the only way Canada can react to the rapid onset of this war ; is war measures Quote
herbie Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 19 hours ago, WestCanMan said: I would rather have Trump for a president than Carney as a PM. Our vax-Nazi LPOC can go to hell. Quote
Dougie93 Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I wondered when this kind of crisis would happen, but I knew it would come eventually, after the Greatest Generation died off and the younger, weaker generations forgot how hard our current world order and rule of law were to come by. I've been predicting this exact crisis for years now, right here on this forum, but the Greatest Generation did not start off as hardened warriors, I used to sit in the Mess with the Second World War vets from the regiment, asking them all about it, they said they were utterly naive, they joined because there was nothing to do in Toronto during the Great Depression, going to fight in Europe sounded like a great adventure, they had no idea what they were getting themselves into, until it was too late Quote
Dougie93 Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 30 minutes ago, Iceni warrior said: So there are no foreigners. Cultures evolve, suck it up. Canada was born of the British Empire, when 25% of the world's population was British, making foreigners into Britons was the whole point, globalized free trade and the free movement of labour therein, was a feature, not a bug Quote
CouchPotato Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: but the Greatest Generation did not start off as hardened warriors, I used to sit in the Mess with the Second World War vets from the regiment, asking them all about it, they said they were utterly naive, And many of them were underage. Can't imagine too many people today lying about their age to go to war (at least on this side of the globe), but I suppose we have all seen tons of war flicks and to most people it looks pretty scary. I also find a lot of people from that generation never came across as hardened people despite what they went through. Edited March 28 by CouchPotato Quote
Dougie93 Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 Just now, CouchPotato said: And many of them were underage. Can't imagine too many people today lying about their age to go to war, but I suppose we have all seen tons of war flicks and to most people it looks pretty scary. I also find a lot of people from that generation never came across as hardened people despite what they went through. kids today are far more aware of the horrors in the world, exponentially so, the kids who signed up to fight the Second World War were utterly sheltered by today's standards, the First World War was not sold to them as being hell on earth, it was all sanitized, into a glorious & valorous adventure, like a Rudyard Kipling poem 1 Quote
WestCanMan Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 (edited) 43 minutes ago, herbie said: What you said^^^ What we all know you were thinking^^ Edited March 28 by WestCanMan Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
WestCanMan Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 53 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: nobody thinks Canada caused this, not even MAGA supporters, even MAGA bros are saying " WTF, why are we attacking Canada ? " And no one is saying "The guys who have been selling Canada out for ten years are the obvious choice to defend our country all of a sudden", except for the CBC and their sycophants. 1 Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
Dougie93 Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: And no one is saying "The guys who have been selling Canada out for ten years are the obvious choice to defend our country all of a sudden", except for the CBC and their sycophants. Trump has altered the landscape, attacking the CBC has become a bad bet for the CPC, when Ontario is rallying around the colours, Doug Ford's PC internal polling says the Liberals are ahead by 15 points in Ontario, that's game over, Quote
Zeitgeist Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 (edited) 3 hours ago, Army Guy said: How would it diminish our political representation compared to what we have right now...there are parts of Canada that really have no say in how canada is run...take a look at atlantic Canada for instance... Or Alberta.... The same resources the liberals' have made almost inaccessible through legislation....US would need to have something for their troubles... Canadians don't really care about their sovereignty, or they would have taken actions to protect it...Yes health care that is in crisis mode right now...Americans seem to be getting along just fine with what they have...Gun control ya how is that working out for us...punishes law abiding gun owners while criminals can get whatever guns they want ... I'm sure that Canadians will find their way through the American political party system just fine, not all Canadians are going to drift towards the democrats side of the force... Canadians love money more than anything else...economic union would make a great deal of sense... I agree with most of what you’re saying, but most Canadians don’t agree and have been raised to fear the US through our media and education. There are good reasons to fear America, but of course the game changes completely if we become Americans and stop thinking about Canada as a separate sealed off entity. When we have the same rights, freedoms and opportunities as all other Americans the only real issue is making sure that the Canadian state prioritizes its culture and policy distinctions from the rest of the U.S. Is that possible? I think it is on the most part. The firearms are the only challenge I see in not having a border, so perhaps maintaining a border as a security checkpoint would be important to Canadians. Again though, Canadians won’t give up their sovereignty anytime soon, so the answer is an American Union of the countries of Canada and the U.S., a tariff free zone of the free movement of people and goods between the two countries. Edited March 28 by Zeitgeist Quote
Army Guy Posted March 28 Report Posted March 28 35 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I agree with most of what you’re saying, but most Canadians don’t agree and have been raised to fear the US through our media and education. There are good reasons to fear America, but of course the game changes completely if we become Americans and stop thinking about Canada as a separate sealed off entity. When we have the same rights, freedoms and opportunities as all other Americans the only real issue is making sure that the Canadian state prioritizes its culture and policy distinctions from the rest of the U.S. Is that possible? I think it is on the most part. The firearms are the only challenge I see in not having a border, so perhaps maintaining a border as a security checkpoint would be important to Canadians. Again though, Canadians won’t give up their sovereignty anytime soon, so the answer is an American Union of the countries of Canada and the U.S., a tariff free zone of the free movement of people and goods between the two countries. I personally don't see firearms as a problem, the push to end firearms is a liberal thing...most Canadians respect and obey the firearm laws....there are groups on the left that want to ban all firearms...while most conservatives see firearms as a tool or sport...nothing more. Canadians were are willing to give up that sovereignty, by telling the world Canada is not likely to be attacked let the americans protect us...that does not sound like a people that really want to protect our sovereignty, sounds like a people either to lazy or want to spend more on social programs than security...this new found desire for sovereignty is a very recent thing...brought on by the States after decades of being asked proded, even embarrassed to tighten up security...they got the same answer every time,.. no thanks, and when we are faced with a President that only has 4 year term and no time to waste threatens us...we all of sudden become patriotic..only because we don't like to be told ... Canadians forget our security be it our borders or the rest of the security apparatus, is the way it is because we as a nation choose it to be that way...our decisions made us weak...now even liberals are screaming we need to invest in our own security....Trumps tactics are a slap in our faces, but it has woken us up to all our mistakes and faults....i hope that we actually learn something from it and take to finding solutions...but our past history does kind of dictates we don't learn a thing Quote We, the willing, led by the unknowing, are doing the impossible for the ungrateful. We have now done so much for so long with so little, we are now capable of doing anything with nothing.
WestCanMan Posted March 29 Report Posted March 29 (edited) 3 hours ago, Dougie93 said: Trump has altered the landscape, attacking the CBC has become a bad bet for the CPC, when Ontario is rallying around the colours, Doug Ford's PC internal polling says the Liberals are ahead by 15 points in Ontario, that's game over, This is a long game and Carney is stepping on rakes at a ridiculous pace. He just moved Brookfield to the US, with whom we're in a trade war, He lied about that He was totally busted for lying He just got a $250M loan from Xi's Communist Bank, and we're also in a trade war with China He's basically saying "CANADA'S TRADE WARS ARE NOT MY TRADE WARS." Edited March 29 by WestCanMan Quote If CNN gave an infinite number of monkeys an infinite number of typewriters, leftists would believe everything they typed. If you missed something on the Cultist Narrative Network, don't worry, the dolt horde here will make sure everyone hears it. "If it didn't come from CNN, it's heresy!" - leftist "intellectuals"
CdnFox Posted March 29 Report Posted March 29 5 hours ago, Iceni warrior said: So there are no foreigners. Cultures evolve, suck it up. You were the one complaining I was fine with the truth Did you need to borrow a straw little guy? Quote
Zeitgeist Posted March 29 Report Posted March 29 (edited) 5 hours ago, Army Guy said: I personally don't see firearms as a problem, the push to end firearms is a liberal thing...most Canadians respect and obey the firearm laws....there are groups on the left that want to ban all firearms...while most conservatives see firearms as a tool or sport...nothing more. Canadians were are willing to give up that sovereignty, by telling the world Canada is not likely to be attacked let the americans protect us...that does not sound like a people that really want to protect our sovereignty, sounds like a people either to lazy or want to spend more on social programs than security...this new found desire for sovereignty is a very recent thing...brought on by the States after decades of being asked proded, even embarrassed to tighten up security...they got the same answer every time,.. no thanks, and when we are faced with a President that only has 4 year term and no time to waste threatens us...we all of sudden become patriotic..only because we don't like to be told ... Canadians forget our security be it our borders or the rest of the security apparatus, is the way it is because we as a nation choose it to be that way...our decisions made us weak...now even liberals are screaming we need to invest in our own security....Trumps tactics are a slap in our faces, but it has woken us up to all our mistakes and faults....i hope that we actually learn something from it and take to finding solutions...but our past history does kind of dictates we don't learn a thing I agree but I think there are reasons for our complacency. Canada has always fought other countries’ wars. We’ve deferred the biggest decisions about what path to take to France then Britain then the U.S. When we tried to chart our own course we were naive about what is needed for true independence. We can’t have true domestic and foreign policy without the ability to defend ourselves and back our talk about world affairs with hard power. We can’t decouple our society from the American way of life while being dependent on the U.S. market and consuming so much American media that our major cities and cultural identity are more American than anything else, and they are. Moreover, the American way of life and living standards are pretty great. Why would we want to decouple from it? How far away do we want to be? Canada gets more distinct in the far north, in the Maritimes and Newfoundland, and most of all in Quebec, but even these places are distinctly North American. None of those unique qualities have to disappear within an American Union, but they will disappear in a society that relies too heavily on government and foreign powers and refuses to pay the price of defence. Trump has served Canada in this one very important way, which is to remind Canadians that real independence and assertion of authority requires honesty about the compromises a country must make, which means you don’t grandstand about your virtues if you’re not prepared to defend them, and you must never betray your own country by emphasizing its mistakes over its good achievements, especially in a great country like Canada. What happened to Canada’s stature under Trudeau is simply terrible and Trump is right to call it out and question whether our leadership should be taken seriously. Unless our federal government gets serious about what it takes to run the country responsibly and make the sacrifices to pay our way on defence and economic development, this kind of annexation talk will continue. I wouldn’t assume it will end with Trump and Trudeau. We can’t afford to have another showy PM who doesn’t understand economics and nationalism. Edited March 29 by Zeitgeist 1 Quote
Iceni warrior Posted March 29 Report Posted March 29 9 hours ago, CdnFox said: You were the one complaining I was fine with the truth Did you need to borrow a straw little guy? Never complain, never explain. Quote
Dougie93 Posted March 29 Report Posted March 29 7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: Unless our federal government gets serious about what it takes to run the country responsibly and make the sacrifices to pay our way on defence and economic development, this kind of annexation talk will continue. but there are reasons why Canada consistently fails to do so, and those are deeply ingrained and structural dating all the way back to 1763, as in order to appease the Quebecois, Canada is designed and constructed as a very weak federation, the EU is not even a state, yet it is far more integrated than Canada is, Canada is the most parochial & provincial state on earth, wherein the Provinces have the power and the federal government is an afterthought Quote
Dougie93 Posted March 29 Report Posted March 29 12 hours ago, WestCanMan said: This is a long game and Carney is stepping on rakes at a ridiculous pace. He just moved Brookfield to the US, with whom we're in a trade war, He lied about that He was totally busted for lying He just got a $250M loan from Xi's Communist Bank, and we're also in a trade war with China He's basically saying "CANADA'S TRADE WARS ARE NOT MY TRADE WARS." nobody cares about that in Ontario, the auto sector is under existential threat from Donald Trump, the Doug Ford Progressive Conservatives are not Pierre Poillievre Prairie Populists, the GTA is flipping back to the Liberals in the face of the Populist threat from America, and the GTA decides the elections, Quote
Zeitgeist Posted March 29 Report Posted March 29 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Dougie93 said: but there are reasons why Canada consistently fails to do so, and those are deeply ingrained and structural dating all the way back to 1763, as in order to appease the Quebecois, Canada is designed and constructed as a very weak federation, the EU is not even a state, yet it is far more integrated than Canada is, Canada is the most parochial & provincial state on earth, wherein the Provinces have the power and the federal government is an afterthought That’s saved the Americans from having to manage Quebec. Basically Canada pays to maintain a French enclave in North America. You know as I do the the Americans wouldn’t prop up Quebec. It’s no surprise that in the face of American annexation threats, calls for Quebec independence from Canada have tanked. Even the Bloc has dropped it from their platform, for now at least. Canadian sovereignty works in the Americans’ favour. Bill Clinton knew this, which was why in the second referendum he said America supports a strong and united Canada. The U.S. boomed at that time. The answer I think is an American Union of Canada and the US and over time harmonize our policies. Eventually Canada might be able to drop some of its departments and bureaucracy. While we may do more adoption of U.S. policy than the reverse, I can see the Americans liking some of our approaches on agriculture and food quality or pharmaceuticals in certain ways. Canada is a work around for some limiting US policies. I don’t think Americans want to give up the prospect of importing our cheaper generic prescriptions. I think it would be a huge boon to businesses on both sides of the border not to have to worry about work visas. Security could be harmonized fairly quickly. The existing border between the two countries basically becomes a quick passport security checkpoint. There’s no need to have each country meet all of the other’s regulatory product requirements. Instead a label for consumers can indicate whether it’s US or Canadian compliant. You’re right that the provinces have strong jurisdiction in Canada, but right now our interprovincial trade barriers are being torn down. Canada will function much more like a country where you can pick up and leave from any province and set up shop in another one without hassle or qualification. Goods will move freely too. Quebec is always the snag, but that’s not going away, and people like the cultural value of Quebec. Trump should consider a common market with Canada Edited March 29 by Zeitgeist Quote
Dougie93 Posted March 29 Report Posted March 29 6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: You know as I do the the Americans wouldn’t prop up Quebec. depends how far down the American imperialist rabbit hole you go, if America shifts to annexing Canada as a long term project, then the method would be to cut special deals with each region in order to pit them against each other, bear in mind that what Quebec receives in transfer payments from Canada that is just walking around money in Washington, Quote
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