Canada Needs to Redirect Energy and Trade Away From U.S.

[Zeitgeist]

Clearly the coterie of yes people around Trump won't question or reel him in, including Lutnick.  All of them are willing to damage the U.S. and Western economies for the forseeable future in the uncertain hope that U.S. domestic industry will expand significantly as the cost of doing business rises and consumer markets decline due to tariffs.  Given that there's no careful plan in this experiment or understanding that some companies and workers impacted may not recover from this sledgehammer, Canada has to stop engaging in this unpredictable mess.  Let the Americans hike their tariffs and costs and spend the necessary decades and billions building the energy-intensive smelters and the power plants needed to power them.  Americans and Canadians can't afford to wait that long, so Canada's best bet is to immediately seek other trade partners and supply its own domestic markets.  Drop all U.S. investment plans and procurements with U.S. companies, including military, to the greatest extent possible.  Seek to divert as much energy supply away from the U.S. as possible. 

Canada has the cards in the important ways on the supply side: oil, electricity, rare earth and precious minerals, steel and aluminum, potash, etc.  Finding new markets will be hard but likely and we will endure a slump as our export economy adjusts.  We'll have to bear the costs of military expansion as business revenue declines, but we can redirect spare industrial capacity to building infrastructure like high speed rail and pipelines (not to the U.S.).   Waiting for the the U.S.'s next trade move puts Canada (and Americans) in the position of constant uncertainty.  Let's instead strike agreements with more reliable partners and expand internal supply and trade.

There's likely too much distrust for greater economic integration with the U.S..  Most Canadians oppose the idea of Canada becoming the 51st state, and our distrust will only grow as long as Trump talks about annexation of Greenland or taking back the Panama Canal.  Soon it won't just be Canadians who aren't along for the ride with whatever POTUS feels like doing on any given day.  We might as well cut our losses and ditch the sinking U.S. ship.  Trump thinks we can't survive without America, but it increasingly looks like Canada will get dragged down with the U.S. as long as we remain dependent on the U.S. market.

Edited March 13 by Zeitgeist

[TreeBeard]

They aren’t going to tariff energy.  And the Conservative premiers are too spineless to stand up for Canada by using energy as a bargaining chip.  

So we will keep selling it to the USA  

Canada has already lost this trade war by having Smith and Moe as premiers. 

Edited March 13 by TreeBeard

[Army Guy]

33 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

They aren’t going to tariff energy.  And the Conservative premiers are too spineless to stand up for Canada by using energy as a bargaining chip.  

So we will keep selling it to the USA  

Canada has already lost this trade war by having Smith and Moe as premiers. 

Do you know what trump said to DOFO, i'm sure trump had better cards than doug did, or he would not have come home hat in hand.....but sure lets paint it as a fail, what have we seen from the Liberal government todate....not much 

Sure lets blame to premier's for a failing of the federal government...lets not see what Carney will do lets just sit down throw your hands up and point fingers at the conservative premiers cause Thats what liberals do blame everything on others.... 

[Zeitgeist]

24 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

They aren’t going to tariff energy.  And the Conservative premiers are too spineless to stand up for Canada by using energy as a bargaining chip.  

So we will keep selling it to the USA  

Canada has already lost this trade war by having Smith and Moe as premiers. 

Ford was the only premier who demonstrated bravery and strength.  Quebec, Alberta and Saskatchewan should’ve joined Ford.  As usual Ontario is carrying the torch for Canada.  We have to change our thinking from worrying about America shutting us out of their market to shutting down our dependence on the U.S.   We might as well start realigning ourselves now. Yes it will hurt Canadians and Americans, but at least we won’t be susceptible to such coercion.

Canada, Britain, and Europe can’t count on the U.S. to follow trade agreements.

Even economic union with the U.S. is too risky in this context.  Trump hasn’t won hearts and minds over to the idea of integration because of his 51st state by economic force rhetoric.  He’s too belligerent and untrustworthy, so once again he will be squeezed out of authority, not just internationally but within the U.S.   It’s too bad, because he has energy and smarts, but he’s too reckless and acts like a dictator.  

[TreeBeard]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Sure lets blame to premier's for a failing of the federal government

You’re right and I agree.   The feds absolutely should come in and override the Alberta and Saskatchewan governments.  It’s not like they can lose seats over it in the election.  

That doesn’t excuse their behaviour.  They would also shit their pants over any federal government intervention and try to create a constitutional crisis.   AB and SK are literally working against Canada’s interests right now. 

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Ford was the only premier who demonstrated bravery and strength.  

Seems like BC has a good response too, from what I’ve read. 

[ironstone]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Ford was the only premier who demonstrated bravery and strength.

Ford was the biggest embarrassment of all when he threatened to cut off their power 'with a smile on my face'. 

It's not a bad thing to diversify our markets with more countries, but what have the Liberals done about it since 2015?

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

You’re right and I agree.   The feds absolutely should come in and override the Alberta and Saskatchewan governments.  It’s not like they can lose seats over it in the election.  

That doesn’t excuse their behaviour.  They would also shit their pants over any federal government intervention and try to create a constitutional crisis.   AB and SK are literally working against Canada’s interests right now. 

 

Can't over ride anything if your not even in the game....and in that vacuum they stepped up to fill that void...

How are they working against Canada's interests right now...there is literal no one in charge and justin was i don't know where thinking of legacy projects like revamping the RCMP, or bullet trains....all while we were under attack by trump...Don't point fingers at the guys with their fingers in the dykes...point them at those that were absent...

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

They aren’t going to tariff energy.  And the Conservative premiers are too spineless to stand up for Canada by using energy as a bargaining chip.  

So we will keep selling it to the USA  

Canada has already lost this trade war by having Smith and Moe as premiers. 

Lets not forget we would not be here if the liberals had taken their jobs seriously, lack of borders, policing, military, and all of the rest of the security apparatus...all starved of funding, while other federal government jobs bloated the entire system...Lets also not forget this is trumps 2.0 and we already had a taste of trump 1.0 in which the liberal government could have taken those lessons learned and took some action, instead today our trade is still not diverse....

[TreeBeard]

3 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Lets not forget we would not be here if the liberals had taken their jobs seriously, lack of borders, policing, military, and all of the rest of the security apparatus...all starved of funding, while other federal government jobs bloated the entire system...Lets also not forget this is trumps 2.0 and we already had a taste of trump 1.0 in which the liberal government could have taken those lessons learned and took some action, instead today our trade is still not diverse....

You actually believe it’s fentanyl!  😂 

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

You actually believe it’s fentanyl!  😂 

you actually believe our border is secure, or all these security apparatus are well funded. Drugs is a small part of the problem trump has an entire list of things he wants fixed, he has already what...to be honest this is about fixing what is wrong with the states and to do that he is going to take what he can from Canada because we are the weakest...and tell me the liberal government did not play a major role in doing that...

[eyeball]

23 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

you actually believe our border is secure, or all these security apparatus are well funded.

You actually believe we should and can seal it to the extent it is utterly impenetrable.  You've made it clear nothing less will do.

Because Mr Trump says so.

[TreeBeard]

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

you actually believe our border is secure

Ummm…. No.  It’s unsecured.  There’s no fence or anything for 99% of it.  And no fentanyl “czar” is going to secure it.  Have you never looked on Google maps?

[blackbird]

11 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

They aren’t going to tariff energy.  And the Conservative premiers are too spineless to stand up for Canada by using energy as a bargaining chip.  

So we will keep selling it to the USA  

Canada has already lost this trade war by having Smith and Moe as premiers. 

Conservative premiers are not spineless.  Most premiers just know Canada has limits as to what it can do.  Most premiers know Canada cannot shut down vital energy sources to the U.S. and Smith and Moe understand that.  It appears you don't.  Canada is dealing with the world's superpower.  If Canada creates a national emergency in the U.S. they have the power to send in the military and reverse any shutdown of energy to the U.S. immediately. They have the power and the last word, not Canada.

This was probably privately told to Premier Ford when he put 25% tariffs on electricity to three states and he immediately dropped the idea.  That's the reality.

[Dougie93]

15 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

 We might as well cut our losses and ditch the sinking U.S. ship. 

enjoy your WEF Globalism on steroids in the Union of Woke Progressive People's Republics,

although I suspect that Canadians won't actually be willing to give up their social welfare entitlements,

in order to pay for their own defence therein,

[Zeitgeist]

15 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

enjoy your WEF Globalism on steroids in the Union of Woke Progressive People's Republics,

although I suspect that Canadians won't actually be willing to give up their social welfare entitlements,

in order to pay for their own defence therein,

Which is it, Dougie, giving into US control or Canadian sovereignty under any government elected by Canadians?

You’re the one supporting globalist Carney.

I’ve all the way along thought that economic union with the U.S. was the best option for both countries.  I even thought that 51st state is worth considering if freely chosen by both countries.

But those are options for democracies.  The current US government is essentially a one-man succession of arbitrary dictates.  Why would I want my country to fall in line with a Castro on the right when we’ve been trying to get out from Castro-Trudeau on the left?

Canada has to cut its reliance on America, defend its sovereignty, and strengthen its free market democracy before entering into any serious negotiations on further integration with the U.S.   It means strengthening our military and electing a Conservative government under Poilievre.  It won’t be perfect, but if it restores and supplements what we had under Harper, I’ll take it.  

[Dougie93]

26 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Which is it, Dougie, giving into US control or Canadian sovereignty under any government elected by Canadians?

You’re the one supporting globalist Carney.

oh I've moved on from trying to save Canada from itself, thus I take no particular position in this conflict,

merely observing Canadian culture in terms of likely outcomes, since culture is destiny

in terms of Carney, I'm just going with the flow of Canadian Identity politics ;

Carney is a three passport carrying British - Irish - Canadian Citoyen du Monde

that's me too, Carney is the Prime Minister whom most represents my lifestyle,

I'm not actually opposed to Globalism nor ever was, I'm a Thatcherite Neoconservative

don't forget that the Carbon Tax was a Conservative policy first,

and Stephen Harper was courting Carney to replace Flaherty as the CPC Minister of Finance,

hence the idea that Carney is suddenly the Devil himself to Conservatives is quite rich indeed,

moreover, I simply do not believe that the Conservatives are actually prepared,

to fight against the Anglo Canadian Woke Progressive indentitarian quasi religion,

I also do not believe that the Conservatives will be more fiscally responsible than the Liberals,

I also do not believe that the Conservatives will deliver significant tax cuts across the board,

I also do not believe that the Conservatives will ultimately spend more on the Canadian military

Edited March 14 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

oh I've moved on from trying to save Canada from itself, thus I take no particular position in this conflict,

merely observing Canadian culture in terms of likely outcomes, since culture is destiny

in terms of Carney, I'm just going with the flow of Canadian Identity politics ;

Carney is a three passport carrying British - Irish - Canadian Citoyen du Monde

that's me too, Carney is the Prime Minister whom most represents my lifestyle,

I'm not actually opposed to Globalism nor ever was, I'm a Thatcherite Neoconservative

There’s merit in that worldview, but that world is gone. Harper’s world is gone too. At this point you place your bet on which horse will win for Canadians. Carney is the guy for a few months until the election, so we’ll get a chance to see how these horses perform and place our bets in the election.  

Edited March 14 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

There’s merit in that worldview, but that world is gone.  Harper’s world is gone too.  At this point you place your bet on which horse will win for Canadians. 

I am not part of the Canadian conformist collective anymore,

like Carney, Canada is only one of my bases of operation,

I place my bets on my many years of preparation for this eventuality, saw it coming from a ways off ;

I place my bets on my knowledge of how to prosper in any world ; crisis is opportunity,

then I simply put my faith in the Nazarene ; no fears on earth

[Dougie93]

17 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  Carney is the guy for a few months until the election, so we’ll get a chance to see how these horses perform and place our bets in the election.  

I don't put any stock in elections, I take a longer view, seeing culture as the determining factor,

I only vote out of a duty to HM The King, and only by Westminster Parliamentary Supremacy therein,

it's not an American Presidential election wherein I am voting for or against Carney,

I am only selecting an MP to represent my riding, based on the individual and how useful they would be to me,

regardless of their ideology or party affiliation

[Zeitgeist]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I am not part of the Canadian conformist collective anymore,

like Carney, Canada is only one of my bases of operation,

I place my bets on my many years of preparation for this eventuality, saw it coming from a ways off ;

I place my bets on my knowledge of how to prosper in any world ; crisis is opportunity,

then I simply put my faith in the Nazarene ; no fears on earth

Yes in the bigger picture much of this is noise.  My only counter is that counties must be self-determining to be democratic.  I support democracy.  Canadians and many Americans know that Canada outperforms the US in public education outcomes, infant mortality, and lifespan, so there’s no value in 51st state if the price is giving up those advantages.  The US could learn some things from Canada.  If we were partners in an economic union that retained our independence and federal government, over time our countries would adopt best practices from both countries, at which point statehood might be a natural outcome, or not, which is fine.  Canada does have to contribute more to its military in any scenario though.  

[Aristides]

I think these things should be done on a national level but with our present political situation in limbo until we have an election or the parties can present a united front against the US, that will be difficult or impossible.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

  Canada does have to contribute more to its military in any scenario though.  

if Canada had to meet its continental & NATO military obligations,

Canada could not afford the social programs which give Canadians an advantage over Americans,

so when push comes to shove, Canada ain't gonna do it,

this is what the Republicans know ; Canada is subsidized by Canada ignoring its national defence

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 The US could learn some things from Canada.

America is adopting Canada's methods right now;

Trump is in fact becoming a Canadian style protectionist while raising taxes to fund his social programs

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

over time our countries would adopt best practices from both countries,

I just see Canadians getting a taste of their own chauvinist protectionist practices and not liking the taste of it,

I don't think it is best practice, but it is the Canadian Way in the end

[Dougie93]

37 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

, at which point statehood might be a natural outcome, or not, which is fine.

Canada wants to have its cake and eat it too,

Canada wants to be treated as a sovereign power when Canada is unwilling to fulfill the basic obligations of,

Canadians expect to be prioritized as if they are Americans,

while remaining at arms length in an American protected socialist hermit kingdom

Canadian Exceptionalism incarnate