Is the Proxy War in Ukraine Lost?

[DUI_Offender]

1 hour ago, User said:

Yeah... you and DUI both push this dumb lie. The facts of the outset of this war, when Russia was trying to encircle Kyiv, prove otherwise. 

What on Earth are you talking about? The Russian goal was to conquer the whole of Ukraine, and install a puppet Government. Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else.

51 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

And one from August.

There are more articles like this.

Is your source Douglas MacGregor?

Seems unlikely Ukraine will run out of men, considering the country has lost only 1% of it's population over the last 3 years. 

[User]

5 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

What on Earth are you talking about? The Russian goal was to conquer the whole of Ukraine, and install a puppet Government. Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else.

Brain fart, I meant WestCanMan. 

[robosmith]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Blah blah...woof woof.

Your dog is playing on your computer again. I can hardly tell the difference. LMAO

[DUI_Offender]

19 minutes ago, robosmith said:

Your dog is playing on your computer again. I can hardly tell the difference. LMAO

His dog makes more intelligent posts.

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

His dog makes more intelligent posts.

Of course - his dog is just typing away,  @Nationalist  knows that a good writer writes for his audience so he has to dumb it down a little more     

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, User said:

And yet Ukraine is still fighting... how if they have no soldiers?

You can ignore the reports if you like. I doubt it'll matter much longer.

53 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

"Cause I said so!" is not considered proving one wrong.

Lol...ya...ok...

51 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

What on Earth are you talking about? The Russian goal was to conquer the whole of Ukraine, and install a puppet Government. Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else.

Is your source Douglas MacGregor?

Seems unlikely Ukraine will run out of men, considering the country has lost only 1% of it's population over the last 3 years. 

Ok...we'll see.

[User]

10 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

You can ignore the reports if you like. I doubt it'll matter much longer.

Not ignoring anything. You have not posted any reports showing Russia has no Ukrainian resistance because they have no more soldiers. 

This is your stupid dishonest argument. 

[Nationalist]

10 minutes ago, User said:

Not ignoring anything. You have not posted any reports showing Russia has no Ukrainian resistance because they have no more soldiers. 

This is your stupid dishonest argument. 

Man I hate to have to do this but...

Yes Dear...

[robosmith]

36 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Man I hate to have to do this but...

Yes Dear...

No, you love to show your BANKRUPTCY.

[Nationalist]

Just now, robosmith said:

No, you love to show your BANKRUPTCY.

Robo-bot...go put your mommy to bed.

[WestCanMan]

6 hours ago, User said:

Nope, you "100%" supported this war. That is escalation.

Nope. If Biden didn't push the idea of NATO in Ukraine there wouldn't have been a war. Are you retarded? 

Quote

You are the one supporting Russia over NATO here. So, were you a spy for them?

1) Ukraine isn't in NATO

2) I'm supporting peace over war. 

3) Biden isn't NATO. Biden is stupid. I don't want NATO to be stupid.

4) If we end up going to war with Russia, of course I'll hope we win, but it will be Biden's fault, and it will cost tens of millions of lives.

[User]

13 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Nope. If Biden didn't push the idea of NATO in Ukraine there wouldn't have been a war. Are you retarded? 

Nope. If Russia did not invade, there would be no war. 

What next, are you going to blame rape victims for wearing a short dress? Did they deserve it too?

13 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

2) I'm supporting peace over war. 

No, you literally said you 100% supported war. 

 

[Black Dog]

1 minute ago, User said:

Nope. If Russia did not invade, there would be no war. 

What next, are you going to blame rape victims for wearing a short dress? Did they deserve it too?

No, you literally said you 100% supported war. 

Curious how you can square your support for Ukraine with your support of a leader who will ensure its defeat.

[BeaverFever]

Ukraine, at least the parts currently under Russian occupation, are probably now lost to Russian aggression. Georgia and other Russian satellites may be next although with Trump aiding and abetting Putin these will likely come in the form of bloodless coups and Russian “military interventions”  while Trump parrots Kremlin talking points

[BeaverFever]

On 11/3/2024 at 9:55 PM, WestCanMan said:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2024/11/01/the-ukraine-war-is-lost-three-options-remain/

I've never heard of counterpunch before, but this article is brilliant.

• I started listening to George Beebe a few years ago when he was warning about tensions in Ukraine, the real risk of escalation to nuclear war and the dangers of groupthink.  Back in 2021 he assessed that Russia was likely to invade Ukraine given the combination of the US’s determination to bring the country into NATO and the fact that it was a “now-or-never moment” for Moscow to stop this happening. 
• Beebe says the West has an erroneous idea as to the very nature of the conflict. The US and the Europeans defined the Russian invasion as a “deterrence model problem” rather than a “spiral model problem”.   In the former, the adversary is a kind of Hitler that must be stopped at all costs.

No one actually believed that was the case, it's just propaganda.

• In reality, Beebe says, the conflict conforms to what Robert Jervis defined back in the 1970s as a “spiral model problem” – where you have one state that attempts to enhance its own security by taking measures (for example, Ukraine joining NATO) that another state (Russia) believes are threatening. You get into a dynamic of action and reaction that can spiral to the point where you get into a conflict.

•  US triumphalism after the fall of the Berlin Wall led, he says, to the US feeling it could abandon statecraft.

  “We no longer felt that we had to engage in normal diplomatic give-and-take, attempting to balance interests as well as balance power – the kinds of things that statecraft has involved for thousands of years. We thought that wasn’t necessary. Number one: we know we’re right. And number two: US power was just so disproportionately greater than any other country’s power, we could simply impose our views, whether they liked it or not.”

• That moment – the Unipolar Moment – has passed and we are now in a multipolar world.  There is no sharper confirmation of this altered geopolitical landscape than the fact that Russia, by force of arms, has almost certainly defeated US plans to extend NATO into Ukraine.

• the Ukrainian army, which has put up an astonishingly stout and courageous resistance, is increasingly unable to hold the line.

• This week the fortress city of Selydove fell with scarcely a mention in the mainstream media. A couple of weeks ago Vuhledar, another key in Ukraine’s defenses, fell after months of pressure from the Russians.  Every day villages and towns are tumbling at a quickening tempo. Chasiv Yar, one of the toughest nuts for the Russians to crack, is close to collapse. The Russians are closing in on Pokrovsk, a key logistical hub in Donetsk.

• The Ukrainians face a terrible dilemma.  Most seem to realize the war is lost.  Any attempt at negotiation with the Russians, however, would unleash internal pressures inside Ukraine that could lead to a coup, assassinations or other upheaval.  The US won’t want the war to end before President Biden leaves office in January 2025 – and may prolong the agony, loss of life and the ceding of yet more territory to Russia for US domestic reasons rather than the best interests of Ukraine. Where is all this leading?

Wait for it.... This is a CRAZY indictment of the west if it's true...

• The third option, and clearly the preferable one for Beebe, is that the West changes course and “picks up the phone”, ending its refusal to negotiate.

"The west" is who's refusing to negotiate?

All the f-tards here were saying that it's "a Russian war of aggression against Ukraine", why would "the west" be the ones stopping the war from ending? How does 'the west' even have a say in how or when the war ends if it's not a proxy war?

Counterpunch is a far left website. You are only aligned with them because they are anti- military while you are only  anti-opposing Putin. 
 

The ridiculousness of the article is to pretend that this conflict only dates to 2021 and pretends Putin’s invasion in 2014 and Georgia in 2008 never happened. 

[User]

27 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

Curious how you can square your support for Ukraine with your support of a leader who will ensure its defeat.

First, the only person you will ever agree with 100% is yourself. I square my support for Trump with the fact that he will most support the things I do. 

Second, I don't think Trump will ensure Ukraine's defeat. Trump is not interested in looking like a loser. 

20 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Ukraine, at least the parts currently under Russian occupation, are probably now lost to Russian aggression. Georgia and other Russian satellites may be next although with Trump aiding and abetting Putin these will likely come in the form of bloodless coups and Russian “military interventions”  while Trump parrots Kremlin talking points

You don't live in reality. 

We already had a Trump presidency, none of this happened. Russia invaded on Obama and Biden's watch. 

Edited November 6, 2024 by User

[Black Dog]

Just now, User said:

First, the only person you will ever agree with 100% is yourself. I square my support for Trump with the fact that he will most support the things I do. 

Second, I don't think Trump will ensure Ukraine's defeat. Trump is not interested in looking like a loser. 

What do you think will happen if Trump pulls support from Ukraine as promised? How long do you think they will hold out? Why would Russia come to the table for a negotiated settlement when they could get everything they want on the battlefield?

[Nationalist]

2 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

What do you think will happen if Trump pulls support from Ukraine as promised? How long do you think they will hold out? Why would Russia come to the table for a negotiated settlement when they could get everything they want on the battlefield?

I don't remember Trump saying he'd pull support for Ukraine. 

Perhaps a citation?

Well Donny's the POTUS Elect. Let's see if he can end this war before January 20th.

[Black Dog]

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I don't remember Trump saying he'd pull support for Ukraine. 

Perhaps a citation?

Well Donny's the POTUS Elect. Let's see if he can end this war before January 20th.

JD Vance and other prominent Republicans have been vocal about cutting aid to Ukraine. Trump said he would end the war but didn't say how (a Ukrainian defeat would end the war after all). Read between the lines.

Of course you know this is true, but you want Russia to win because you love authoritarian regimes.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2024 by Black Dog

[User]

15 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

What do you think will happen if Trump pulls support from Ukraine as promised? How long do you think they will hold out? Why would Russia come to the table for a negotiated settlement when they could get everything they want on the battlefield?

What exactly did he promise?

No where did I see any promise that he just pulls support and walks away. 

[BeaverFever]

20 minutes ago, User said:

First, the only person you will ever agree with 100% is yourself. I square my support for Trump with the fact that he will most support the things I do. 

Second, I don't think Trump will ensure Ukraine's defeat. Trump is not interested in looking like a loser. 

You don't live in reality. 

We already had a Trump presidency, none of this happened. Russia invaded on Obama and Biden's watch. 

Invasion was plan B. Internal coup while Trump sat on his hands was plan A but they couldn’t get the deal done in time what with Trump being impeached  and under scrutiny for threatening to cut off aid to Ukraine 

[Black Dog]

13 minutes ago, User said:

What exactly did he promise?

No where did I see any promise that he just pulls support and walks away. 

lmao, pulling Ukraine funding has been the Republican Party's stated policy preference for ages. Trump himself has refused to commit to maintaining support. Just what the hell do you think is gonna happen here?

[Nationalist]

28 minutes ago, Black Dog said:

JD Vance and other prominent Republicans have been vocal about cutting aid to Ukraine. Trump said he would end the war but didn't say how (a Ukrainian defeat would end the war after all). Read between the lines.

Of course you know this is true, but you want Russia to win because you love authoritarian regimes.

 

 

Dingle-Pebbles...

You just finished a several page spiel about how Kamala never said Trump is a NAZI...and now post this?

I do believe whatever peace deal is struck, will grant Russia the annexed east. This is rather inevitable. We'll have to wait to see if what's left of Ukraine is allowed into NATO.

It is what it is pup.

[User]

21 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Invasion was plan B. Internal coup while Trump sat on his hands was plan A but they couldn’t get the deal done in time what with Trump being impeached  and under scrutiny for threatening to cut off aid to Ukraine 

Other than just completely fabricating this in your head, what evidence do you have of any of this?

 

[Black Dog]

Just now, Nationalist said:

Dingle-Pebbles...

You just finished a several page spiel about how Kamala never said Trump is a NAZI...and now post this?

Your reading comprehension is as shitty as your critical thinking skills if you think that's what that thread was about.

Quote

 

I do believe whatever peace deal is struck, will grant Russia the annexed east. This is rather inevitable. We'll have to wait to see if what's left of Ukraine is allowed into NATO.

It is what it is pup.

 

Again, if the GOP gets its wish and pulls aid from Ukraine, why would Russia settle for the eastern bits instead of the whole damn thing? The point of this invasion was to end Ukraine's existence as a sovereign state, no reason to think that's changed. But again, you're a Putin dickrider so that's a great outcome for you.