Is the Proxy War in Ukraine Lost?

[DUI_Offender]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Poor war monger. You can't dispute any of it, so you try to shame me.

The truth is what it is and that's the bottom line whether you approve or not.

You are a Kremlin puppet, and a traitor to North America. 

[DUI_Offender]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

 

On this US election day, you and I...I think...are pullin' for the same result. A Trump win. Tell me...what do you think Donny-Boy has in mind when he claims he will end this war before he's inaugurated?

 

Trump is going to end support for Ukraine, and try to force Zelenskyy to give up 1/3 of Ukraine, so his friend Putin can annex it to Russia.

[Nationalist]

12 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

You are a Kremlin puppet, and a traitor to North America. 

Lol...you're a twit.

9 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

Trump is going to end support for Ukraine, and try to force Zelenskyy to give up 1/3 of Ukraine, so his friend Putin can annex it to Russia.

He might. I think the big question will be NATO expansion to include Ukraine. 

We will see.

[User]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Trump...what do you think he has in mind?

You tell me. I am aware that he has made no definitive plans. 

 

[User]

32 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

Trump is going to end support for Ukraine, and try to force Zelenskyy to give up 1/3 of Ukraine, so his friend Putin can annex it to Russia.

Not his friend. Putin already annexed Crimea under Obama's watch. Putin already annexed the Donbas under Obama's watch. 

Putin already had this land before Trump came into office. 

You know what Putin didn't do while Trump was in office? He didn't outright invade Ukraine. He did that under Biden. 

 

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, User said:

You tell me. I am aware that he has made no definitive plans. 

 

Well...if he really thinks he can end this war quickly, he'll need to use a very big stick. I think he'll cut the annexed portions of Eastern Ukraine off and award them to Russia, and I think part of the deal will include some sort of NATO and American presence in Ukraine. 

[User]

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Well...if he really thinks he can end this war quickly, he'll need to use a very big stick. I think he'll cut the annexed portions of Eastern Ukraine off and award them to Russia, and I think part of the deal will include some sort of NATO and American presence in Ukraine. 

So... you support using a big stick against Russia, only as long as Trump is the one wielding it?

[DUI_Offender]

53 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

 

He might. I think the big question will be NATO expansion to include Ukraine. 

We will see.

You are a scared child, in a man's body.

[DUI_Offender]

32 minutes ago, User said:

Not his friend. Putin already annexed Crimea under Obama's watch. Putin already annexed the Donbas under Obama's watch. 

Russia did not annex the Donbas, until they did a full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Nothing to do with Obama. 

[User]

Just now, DUI_Offender said:

Russia did not annex the Donbas, until they did a full scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022. Nothing to do with Obama. 

Ukraine had been fighting against Russia in that region since 2014, when Russia started its shadow war there. For all practical purposes, Russia controlled that region, which is why Ukraine already had fortified defensive positions when Russia launched its invasion. 

This all happened under Obama. That is my point. 

You keep trying to claim it is Trump going to give this stuff away when Russia already took it before Trump came into office. 

 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, User said:

First, you asked a loaded question. There was never a "threat" to join NATO. I have repeatedly called you out on this BS argument of yours. NATO is a defensive alliance for GOOD in this world.

Holy faceplant Batman. That's just embarrassing. 

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The only "threat" they pose to Russia is in opposing Russian aggression and harmful acts around the world. 

I served in NATO for 3 years. I obviously have a lot of friends who served and still serve, and I never thought of mself as a bad person, intent on invading Russia. That being said, if I stood on the Ukraine-Russia border holding a rifle and carrying grenades, how could I possibly convey a "good-guy" message? Jesus Christ User, get your head out of your ass. 

In the interests of their safety, I'd urge NATO leaders not to get up in everybody's faces. 

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Second, you keep pushing this lie about not moving past Germany. You have already ran away from several threads on this where you have been called out before. No such formal agreement was ever made and NATO has been moving past Germany long before Ukraine. 

 I didn't invent the "not one inch past Germany" message User. Blame James Baker for that.

A slithery guy like you might feel like there's no need to honour verbal agreements, but James Baker did have authority to speak on behalf of the United States, and his comments were public and therefore should have been annulled immediately if he spoke out of line.

We're the "good guys", according to you, remember? Doesn't that mean that we shouldn't be lying to people? 

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Third, there was never any formal agreement with Ukraine not ever joining NATO. 

That's basically the same argument as number 2, and I'm not gonna repeat my answer. Just read it again. A few times. 

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None of this garbage is in my head because I am an honest person not engaged in pushing Russian propaganda to defend Russia like you are. 

Lol. You're an honest person who just advocated for "the good guys" to break their verbal commitments.

"Yeah, we may have made some promises, but we didn't write them down on paper, so you can shove them up your ass. We're the good guys." 🤣

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You are the one who justifies this war for Russia, lies, and pushes Russian propaganda. You are the war monger. 

It's absolutely justified. 100%.

In case that's not clear enough for you, I'll write it here in the form of a declarative statement which you can quote: THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE WAS 100% JUSTIFIED. NOT 99%, OR 99.3%. 100.0% JUSTIFIED. 

If Canada tried to join a military alliance with NoKo, Russia, China and Iran, the US would invade us, guaranteed, and they'd be stupid not to. And they would be 100.00% justified in doing so.

There's a price to be paid for being stupid and Ukraine is paying it. Hopefully we don't all pay. 

[Deluge]

On 11/3/2024 at 7:55 PM, WestCanMan said:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2024/11/01/the-ukraine-war-is-lost-three-options-remain/

I've never heard of counterpunch before, but this article is brilliant.

• I started listening to George Beebe a few years ago when he was warning about tensions in Ukraine, the real risk of escalation to nuclear war and the dangers of groupthink.  Back in 2021 he assessed that Russia was likely to invade Ukraine given the combination of the US’s determination to bring the country into NATO and the fact that it was a “now-or-never moment” for Moscow to stop this happening. 
• Beebe says the West has an erroneous idea as to the very nature of the conflict. The US and the Europeans defined the Russian invasion as a “deterrence model problem” rather than a “spiral model problem”.   In the former, the adversary is a kind of Hitler that must be stopped at all costs.

No one actually believed that was the case, it's just propaganda.

• In reality, Beebe says, the conflict conforms to what Robert Jervis defined back in the 1970s as a “spiral model problem” – where you have one state that attempts to enhance its own security by taking measures (for example, Ukraine joining NATO) that another state (Russia) believes are threatening. You get into a dynamic of action and reaction that can spiral to the point where you get into a conflict.

•  US triumphalism after the fall of the Berlin Wall led, he says, to the US feeling it could abandon statecraft.

  “We no longer felt that we had to engage in normal diplomatic give-and-take, attempting to balance interests as well as balance power – the kinds of things that statecraft has involved for thousands of years. We thought that wasn’t necessary. Number one: we know we’re right. And number two: US power was just so disproportionately greater than any other country’s power, we could simply impose our views, whether they liked it or not.”

• That moment – the Unipolar Moment – has passed and we are now in a multipolar world.  There is no sharper confirmation of this altered geopolitical landscape than the fact that Russia, by force of arms, has almost certainly defeated US plans to extend NATO into Ukraine.

• the Ukrainian army, which has put up an astonishingly stout and courageous resistance, is increasingly unable to hold the line.

• This week the fortress city of Selydove fell with scarcely a mention in the mainstream media. A couple of weeks ago Vuhledar, another key in Ukraine’s defenses, fell after months of pressure from the Russians.  Every day villages and towns are tumbling at a quickening tempo. Chasiv Yar, one of the toughest nuts for the Russians to crack, is close to collapse. The Russians are closing in on Pokrovsk, a key logistical hub in Donetsk.

• The Ukrainians face a terrible dilemma.  Most seem to realize the war is lost.  Any attempt at negotiation with the Russians, however, would unleash internal pressures inside Ukraine that could lead to a coup, assassinations or other upheaval.  The US won’t want the war to end before President Biden leaves office in January 2025 – and may prolong the agony, loss of life and the ceding of yet more territory to Russia for US domestic reasons rather than the best interests of Ukraine. Where is all this leading?

Wait for it.... This is a CRAZY indictment of the west if it's true...

• The third option, and clearly the preferable one for Beebe, is that the West changes course and “picks up the phone”, ending its refusal to negotiate.

"The west" is who's refusing to negotiate?

All the f-tards here were saying that it's "a Russian war of aggression against Ukraine", why would "the west" be the ones stopping the war from ending? How does 'the west' even have a say in how or when the war ends if it's not a proxy war?

It doesn't matter who wins or loses, but that the war continues. 

-- The Left

[Nationalist]

57 minutes ago, User said:

So... you support using a big stick against Russia, only as long as Trump is the one wielding it?

I support using whatever it takes to end the war quickly.

[User]

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Holy faceplant Batman. That's just embarrassing. 

Nothing embarrassing about it. What is embarrassing is that you have more support for Russia than you do NATO. 

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

That being said, if I stood on the Ukraine-Russia border holding a rifle and carrying grenades, how could I possibly convey a "good-guy" message? Jesus Christ User, get your head out of your ass. 

This is not a refutation of anything I just said. 

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I didn't invent the "not one inch past Germany" message User. Blame James Baker for that.

I don't have to ask anyone anything, YOU are the one here making this dishonest argument. There was no deal. Period. 

James Baker even said as much later after the fact, that he had no such authority... hence why there was no formal deal. 

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

That's basically the same argument as number 2, and I'm not gonna repeat my answer. Just read it again. A few times. 

Its the same argument because you make the same lie. 

There was no deal. 

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Lol. You're an honest person who just advocated for "the good guys" to break their verbal commitments.

There were no commitments to honor. Democratic nations ruled by the law and their people are not subject to backroom verbal deals. Either way, no deals were made. Nothing was broken. 

25 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

It's absolutely justified. 100%.

You have your head so far up Putins ass your brain is full of his shit. 

Edited November 5, 2024 by User

[User]

5 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I support using whatever it takes to end the war quickly.

"whatever it takes"

Until I ask you a specific question on support for NATO and their providing support to Ukraine... 

You are full of shit. 

[Nationalist]

45 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

You are a scared child, in a man's body.

And you're still a twit.

[Nationalist]

5 minutes ago, User said:

"whatever it takes"

Until I ask you a specific question on support for NATO and their providing support to Ukraine... 

You are full of shit. 

Perpetuating this war through NATO is NOT gonna end the war quickly.

Don't play games with my posts...thank you very much.

[WestCanMan]

4 minutes ago, User said:

Nothing embarrassing about it. What is embarrassing is that you have more support for Russia than you do NATO. 

I fully support NATO to do the right thing.

You just don't understand the word "aggression". 

Putting the combined armies of 20 countries on someone's doorstep is always bad. 

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James Baker even said as much later after the fact, that he had no such authority... hence why there was no formal deal. 

So now you're admitting that he said it.

FYI the American gov't knew that he made that representation, and if it wasn't legit then it should have been rescinded immediately, or honoured. We're the good guys, right? Or is it "The good guys who lie"? 

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There were no commitments to honor. Democratic nations ruled by the law and their people are not subject to backroom verbal deals. Either way, no deals were made. Nothing was broken. 

Stop pretending that you're honest and then saying that you don't honour verbal commitments, donkey. 

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You have your head so far up Putins ass your brain is full of his shit. 

You're such a biased, propagandist twit that you're the type of person who starts wars while thinking that you're a great person. 

User: "Never fear, we're the g🤡🤡d guys! We made verbal commitments which we had no intention of honouring, and now here we are with all of our armies at your border, to keep the peace and remind everyone how good we are!" 🤣

Listen to yourself, donkey. Your exact plan is to allow Baker to lie, then plant your armies on Russia's doorstep, while pretending to be the good guy. You're a f'ing tool. 

[DUI_Offender]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

I served in NATO for 3 years.

Prove it. 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

I obviously have a lot of friends who served and still serve, and I never thought of mself as a bad person, intent on invading Russia. That being said, if I stood on the Ukraine-Russia border holding a rifle and carrying grenades, how could I possibly convey a "good-guy" message? Jesus Christ User, get your head out of your ass. 

You are arguing in bad faith. 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

In the interests of their safety, I'd urge NATO leaders not to get up in everybody's faces. 

They are helping protect Eastern Europe from Russian aggression. If NATO did not exist, I have every reason to believe Russia would have invaded Poland, the Baltic Countries, and even Finland by now. 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

 I didn't invent the "not one inch past Germany" message User. Blame James Baker for that.

Can you provide sources that support your claims about James Baker. 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

A slithery guy like you might feel like there's no need to honour verbal agreements, but James Baker did have authority to speak on behalf of the United States, and his comments were public and therefore should have been annulled immediately if he spoke out of line.

Prove it. 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

We're the "good guys", according to you, remember? Doesn't that mean that we shouldn't be lying to people? 

How is NATO lying?

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

 

"Yeah, we may have made some promises, but we didn't write them down on paper, so you can shove them up your ass. We're the good guys." 🤣

What promises?

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

It's absolutely justified. 100%.

In case that's not clear enough for you, I'll write it here in the form of a declarative statement which you can quote: THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF UKRAINE WAS 100% JUSTIFIED. NOT 99%, OR 99.3%. 100.0% JUSTIFIED. 

You are a fool. The Russian invasion was not justified at all. 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

If Canada tried to join a military alliance with NoKo, Russia, China and Iran, the US would invade us, guaranteed, and they'd be stupid not to. And they would be 100.00% justified in doing so.

I would not blame the US for invading us, if we joined an alliance with their enemies (and our enemies). However, that has not stopped from Pierre and the Conservatives, and members of the GOP to try to form alliances with Russia. 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

There's a price to be paid for being stupid and Ukraine is paying it. Hopefully we don't all pay. 

No, you are stupid for buying into Russian propaganda. 

[Nationalist]

36 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I fully support NATO to do the right thing.

You just don't understand the word "aggression". 

Putting the combined armies of 20 countries on someone's doorstep is always bad. 

So now you're admitting that he said it.

FYI the American gov't knew that he made that representation, and if it wasn't legit then it should have been rescinded immediately, or honoured. We're the good guys, right? Or is it "The good guys who lie"? 

Stop pretending that you're honest and then saying that you don't honour verbal commitments, donkey. 

You're such a biased, propagandist twit that you're the type of person who starts wars while thinking that you're a great person. 

User: "Never fear, we're the g🤡🤡d guys! We made verbal commitments which we had no intention of honouring, and now here we are with all of our armies at your border, to keep the peace and remind everyone how good we are!" 🤣

Listen to yourself, donkey. Your exact plan is to allow Baker to lie, then plant your armies on Russia's doorstep, while pretending to be the good guy. You're a f'ing tool. 

I think it's a simple case of 'my side must be right' with most of these guys here. I mean really...they been tryin' to sell the idea that Ukraine...UKRAINE...is kicking Russia's ass. This bullshit has always been...bullshit.

NATO is not going to further risk nuclear war with Russia.! It was never gonna happen. We knew that before Russia invaded from Brandon's own floppy mouth.

But...it is IMPOSSIBLE...I suspect...for some folks to accept the defeat of their team...regardless of the reasons for the conflict.

[User]

55 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Perpetuating this war through NATO is NOT gonna end the war quickly.

Don't play games with my posts...thank you very much.

You are the one playing games.

Once again, would you support NATO support for Ukraine if it were so overwhelmingly significant as to force Russia to abandon their war efforts quickly?

 

 

[User]

50 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I fully support NATO to do the right thing.

You just don't understand the word "aggression". 

Putting the combined armies of 20 countries on someone's doorstep is always bad. 

This is such dishonesty vaguery. The "right thing" for you is entire subjective and undefined here. 

No one placed the combined armies of 20 countries on Russias doorstep nor would that happen if Ukrinae were to join NATO. 

As I have previously pointed out to you before, NATO already exists on Russias border. 

NATO is a defensive alliance, their being on Russias border is only "aggression" to a Russia intent on being aggressive to them. 

Once again, you are a Putin sycophant with your head so far up his ass... I wouldn't be surprised if you were a Russian operative in NATO, spying for them. 

54 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

So now you're admitting that he said it.

FYI the American gov't knew that he made that representation, and if it wasn't legit then it should have been rescinded immediately, or honoured. We're the good guys, right? Or is it "The good guys who lie"? 

Said it? They were in negotiations that resulted in a FORMAL agreement at the end that didn't include any of that. 

There is no lie, there was never any formal agreement. They were negotiations that resulted in a formal agreement which didn't include not moving East of Germany as you claim. 

You are the one lying here, you are the bad guy. 

56 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Stop pretending that you're honest and then saying that you don't honour verbal commitments, donkey. 

There was no verbal agreement. They were negotiations that resulted in formal agreement, which did not include what you claim here. 

57 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

You're such a biased, propagandist twit that you're the type of person who starts wars while thinking that you're a great person. 

Holy crap man, Russia started this war. You are the one defending it. 

[WestCanMan]

6 minutes ago, User said:

You are the one playing games.

Once again, would you support NATO support for Ukraine if it were so overwhelmingly significant as to force Russia to abandon their war efforts quickly?

So sayeth the self-anointed "good guy". 

A million people are already dead. Is it really time to escalate? 

[Nationalist]

10 minutes ago, User said:

You are the one playing games.

Once again, would you support NATO support for Ukraine if it were so overwhelmingly significant as to force Russia to abandon their war efforts quickly?

 

 

Perhaps. But logic says that wouldn't happen.

[User]

2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

So sayeth the self-anointed "good guy". 

A million people are already dead. Is it really time to escalate? 

Escalate?

You are the one who "100%" says this war was justified. 

YOU supported the escalation here to killing people. 

The only "escalation" you now oppose is fighting back. 

Sure dude, if someone is kicking you while you are on the ground, just lay down there and take it, don't "escalate" things by defending yourself. 

 

1 minute ago, Nationalist said:

Perhaps. But logic says that wouldn't happen.

Yet again, you refuse to answer the question. You are the one playing these dishonest games.