Trudeau's immigration minister Marc Miller announces that he is quintupling the number of refugees Canada is taking from Gaza from 1,000 to 5,000.

NAME REMOVED · May 28, 2024

49 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Ingenious. Hey have you asked the Poles or the Czechs how much they love these Ukraine "refugees"?

What the hell are you talking about?

Nationalist · May 28, 2024

5 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

What the hell are you talking about?

@Michael Hardner had said the Gaza refugees would be no different from the Ukrainian refugees. Well...I happen to know that the Ukrainian refugees are a real problem in the nations that took a lot of 'em. Poland, Czech and Germany.

Thus, do we want thousands of Gaza refugees? Not really. We have nowhere to put them. We have no money to support them. We have our own problems...like an economy that Pixie-Dust keeps trying to destroy instead of recover.

CdnFox · May 28, 2024

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your constant discounting of the Palestinians as having any legitimacy leads us to where we are today. If negotiations are not possible, then you will have constant war - which is what the Israeli PM and Hamas both want. So no more complaining about innocent civilians on either side, this is the situation you are comfortable with...

What utter bullshit.

Israel was far along in good faith negotiations as recently as 2014, until the palestinians decided to throw it away.

There are numerous examples of israelis expressing that they want an end to the conflicts and wish peaceful solutions, there are almost none of palestinian groups doing the same.

Hell, one of the women killed on oct 7 was a famous advocate for palestinian rights and an end to the violence. There are Palestinians in the israeli gov't.

It's not even close. If gaza and palestine decided tomorrow that they wanted peace and that they were determined to live with their neighbor and recognize them and their right to exist, this would be over. Period. If Israel tried that the conflict would continue forever unless they all got killed as a result.

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2024

17 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

What utter bullshit.

Which part is bullshit ? "you will have constant war - which is what the Israeli PM and Hamas both want. " ?

CdnFox · May 28, 2024

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Which part is bullshit ?

I was pretty clear. But i bet you try to ignore all the stuff i pointed out and dodge the issue.

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"you will have constant war - which is what the Israeli PM and Hamas both want. " ?

Sigh, nailed it

The israeli pm does not want constant war. That's fairly obvious. But - while hamas is an ongoing organization who's existance will span decades and already has, Netanyahu is not. One way or another he'll be gone in the foreseeable future.

And it's clear that the people of israel are open to the idea of peace and lasting solution- they're just severely distrustful of Palestine and for good reason. Hamas however can only exist within the framework of hostility and violence with israel.

So yeah - that was a bullshit statement too. If I'm not stop fighting there would be peace. If Israel stopped fighting there would be genocide

eyeball · May 28, 2024

15 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Jews in the 1930s were not militant, and looking to spread hate in other countries. Nor were they attempting to topple Governments in countries with similar demographics.

So again I ask, why didn't we take them in?

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2024

32 minutes ago, eyeball said:

So again I ask, why didn't we take them in?

Because people didn't have a principled view of refugees ? They used a broad generalization to decide that the people, on the whole, weren't worth saving ?

Kind of like... er.... well a lot of people that we reject.

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Decent people don't think like the Iranians do. Decent people don't think like the Pakistanis do. Decent people don't think like the Saudis do. Decent people don't think like the Syrians do. Decent people don't think like the Egyptians do. Decent people don't think like the Iraqs do.

https://repolitics.com/forums/topic/50322-pro-hamas-rallies-in-canada/?do=findComment&comment=1705615

WestCanMan · May 28, 2024

@Michael Hardner Can you find a way to tell me that you don't know what's going on, without actually saying that you don't know what's going on?

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your constant discounting of the Palestinians as having any legitimacy leads us to where we are today. If negotiations are not possible, then you will have constant war - which is what the Israeli PM and Hamas both want.

Nailed it. That's the perfect way to prove that you know nothing.

1. The Palestinians have always been given more legitimacy/credibility than they've deserved. They're terrorists/wanna be genocidal maniacs and yet some countries still talk to them like they're almost adults.

2. The terroristically inclined sh1thole countries of that region don't acknowledge Israel as a sovereign country, I think we should all be able to agree that's the real problem here.

3. The terroristically inclined sh1thole countries of that region are all signatories of the Khartoum resolution, so they've sworn that they'll never acknowledge Israel as a sovereign country, never have peace, never negotiate.

The Israeli PM wants peace from the Gaza strip, and he's removing militance from that region.

Edited May 28, 2024 by WestCanMan

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2024

4 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The Palestinians ... [are] ... terrorists/wanna be genocidal maniacs.

You also said:

"Decent people don't think like the Iranians do. Decent people don't think like the Pakistanis do. Decent people don't think like the Saudis do. Decent people don't think like the Syrians do. Decent people don't think like the Egyptians do. Decent people don't think like the Iraqs do. "

So - you don't believe in negotiating with any of these peoples, do you ? Or do you ? You want to declare an entire people as "maniacs", in other words de-humanize them. When Trudeau did this to the Convoy folks you were SO offended... that you figuratively jumped on your chair and started shriekling like you saw a mouse... demanded we all condemn Trudeau.

You simply have different rules for some people than others, and a refusal to attempt objectivity and respect is poor foundation for politics...

Edited May 28, 2024 by Michael Hardner

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2024

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

1. The israeli pm does not want constant war. T

2. And it's clear that the people of israel are open to the idea of peace and lasting solution- they're just severely distrustful of Palestine and for good reason.

3. Hamas however can only exist within the framework of hostility and violence with israel.

4. If Israel stopped fighting there would be genocide

1. Ok, I see. Well whether or not he would publicly say so, my opinion is that he knows that without a two-state solution there will be perpetual armed conflict, terrorism and strife in his nation. He's not stupid, so he knows this. But a situation of perpetual unrest helps him politically, is my point.
2. Yes, agreed.
3. Yes, Hamas bad. Agree.
4. No serious person expects Israel to not defend itself. Before the current incompetent PM, they used their excellent intelligence service to undermine terrorists.

CdnFox · May 28, 2024

42 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok, I see. Well whether or not he would publicly say so, my opinion is that he knows that without a two-state solution there will be perpetual armed conflict, terrorism and strife in his nation. He's not stupid, so he knows this. But a situation of perpetual unrest helps him politically, is my point.

I dare say being able to announce that he struck a deal for peace would help him even more. But I suspect it's the fear of the failure of such an agreement that probably scares him more than not doing anything at all.

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4. No serious person expects Israel to not defend itself. Before the current incompetent PM, they used their excellent intelligence service to undermine terrorists.

Things may well have slipped somewhat in that regard, I do know that there have been no small number of attacks and violence previously. It seems like it was more of a bad call where the intelligence service simply thought something was unlikely when it turned out to be true.

However Either way I'm not 100% sure you can draw a direct line to the current administration for that. I have not researched this thoroughly enough to say with conviction, but I don't seem to recall hearing of them cutting funding or doing something that would by implications suggests that the government itself has chosen to weaken the intelligence arm or ignore it. You may know more than I do in that particular respect but I haven't heard of anything.

I would guess that he wants peace as much as anyone else, my suspicion is that his method for obtaining it may differ from some. I suspect he would like to see a no state solution as far as the Palestinians go, and would rather that they were relocated.

In any case I suspect that the outcome here is going to be occupation. At least until they have some reason to believe that they have put a government in power that won't be actively warlike

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2024

3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

1. I dare say being able to announce that he struck a deal for peace would help him even more. But I suspect it's the fear of the failure of such an agreement that probably scares him more than not doing anything at all.

2. Either way I'm not 100% sure you can draw a direct line to the current administration for that.

3. In any case I suspect that the outcome here is going to be occupation.

1. Ok. His starting point to any agreement is untenable, so it won't be happening.

2. Valid point.

3. Agreed.

WestCanMan · May 28, 2024

13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You also said:

"Decent people don't think like the Iranians do. Decent people don't think like the Pakistanis do. Decent people don't think like the Saudis do. Decent people don't think like the Syrians do. Decent people don't think like the Egyptians do. Decent people don't think like the Iraqs do. "

So you're blowing right past the whole part about genocidal sh1thole countries who will never acknowledge Israel and will continually consider themselves at war with them?

You just can't comment on that, because....

Sure. I'll just respond to your latest drivel anyways because I'm never at a loss for an answer, like you always seem to be.

Everything that I said there is 100% accurate. I'm 100.0% fine with those comments. Decent people absoltely do not think like the aforementioned scumbags do.

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So - you don't believe in negotiating with any of these peoples, do you ? Or do you ?

What did I say?

NO ONE HAS THE OPTION OF NEGOTIATING WITH THEM.

IN KHARTOUM THEY ALL AGREED THAT THEY WOULD NEVER NEGOTIATE AND THEY HAVE NEVER NEGOTIATED. The three noes of Khartoum. Google it ffs.

You might as well ask me if I'm willing to negotiate the materials used for a statue dedicated to my greatness, because no one is listening. I could talk all day. Israel could talk all day. No one is listening.

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You want to declare an entire people as "maniacs", in other words de-humanize them.

They did that themselves Michael. I had no part in their automatic recognition of/friendship with Pakistan, after the Pakistanis wiped a million people off the face of the earth in 1947, and displaced 8M more.

What do you think of that Michael? What do YOU think about it? Was it normal to just say "Killing 800,000 Sikhs and Hindus was just fine, because they're people of lesser Gods, but the killing of less than 500 muslims in 1948 can only be avenged by killing all 10,000,000 people in Israel in 2024"?

Make whatever judgements against the sh1thole country people you want, but just do it based on the fact that they are all ENTIRELY fine with Pakistan's genocide in 1947, and Pakistan's second major genocide in 1971, plus all of the minor genocides they've committed since then. But 500 people killed in 1948 was "THE NABKA!"

I call that "THE HYPOCRISY".

What do you think? Can you think of a better way to describe how they can be ok with 800,000 murders but irate about 500 murders?

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When Trudeau did this to the Convoy folks you were SO offended... that you figuratively jumped on your chair and started shriekling like you saw a mouse... demanded we all condemn Trudeau.

Like I f'ing said Michael... NO ONE HAS THE OPTION OF NEGOTIATING WITH THE KHARTOUM CROWD. NO ONE.

Get them to move their goalposts from "Genocide against Israel" to something else, and then there can be a negotiation, right?

When the Freedom Convoy went to Ottawa to "negotiate", was their bargaining position stuck on "a massive genocide"? Because if it was then I don't blame Trudeau for not negotiating.

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You simply have different rules for some people than others, and a refusal to attempt objectivity and respect is poor foundation for politics...

You simply don't even know what the Khartoum resolution is, what it means, or what ME countries are willing to accept here in negotiations.

What you think is on the table from their side is absolutely not there.

I'd love for you to write down what you think is the "offer that's on the table for Israel to sign" right now, what offer was on the table in 1948, what offer was on the table in 1967, or at any point between.

What great peace offering do you think Israel ever got, Michael? I absolutely want to know YOUR opinion on this. I'm curious AF.

herbie · May 28, 2024

Reality is that the minute a peace deal is done Hamas will have admitted defeat and be OUT, and so will Netanyahu. Not much incentive is there?

As for the refugees, I'm sure many would prefer just to send them their thoughts and prayers.

Moonlight Graham · May 28, 2024

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Once again I am asking about the Oslo Accord.

Ask Arafat why it ended at Camp David.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#Responsibility_for_failure

Michael Hardner · May 28, 2024

9 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Ask Arafat why it ended at Camp David.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#Responsibility_for_failure

That's super informative to me. So did the talks stop then ? Why didn't they continue from the opening position ?

WestCanMan · May 28, 2024

8 minutes ago, herbie said:

As for the refugees, I'm sure many would prefer just to send them their thoughts and prayers.

I can give you a list of 10 ME countries that LOVE the Palestinians so much that they're willing to commit genocide against Israel, to avenge the 500 deaths in "The Nabka", as well as the total number of refugees that they've all taken in over the past 75 years: zero.

Zero.

That's the total number of Palestinian refugees taken in by Iran, Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, etc, have taken in.

Well, truth be told, some have been taken in, but they eventually got kicked out after trying to overthrow the gov't of their new country. Learn something for once, herbie:

For example, in 1991, the Kuwaiti government actually expelled nearly 300,000 Palestinians in the aftermath of the first Gulf War. And this represented an astonishing 18% of Kuwait’s entire population. So what was the reason? Well, the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) had actually supported Saddam Hussein’s invasion of Kuwait a year earlier. And this support only grew after Iraq began attacking Israel with rockets throughout the war.
Decades earlier, the Palestinian groups operating in Jordan had come to openly call for the overthrow of Jordan’s monarchy in the aftermath of the Six Day War. At the time the PLO maintained its own separate army on Jordanian soil and used that armed force to sow chaos. Armed gangs of PLO militants drove around the capital of Amman, robbing families and businesses in the name of collecting “financial assistance” for the ongoing War of Attrition against Israel. When members of the Jordanian police and army tried to defend their citizens from these attacks, they were attacked and killed. The Palestinian political network operated as a state within a state, with militants repeatedly using Jordan to launch rockets into Israel. The Marxist Leninist Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine even with so far as to hijack multiple planes, diverting the flights to a Palestinian controlled airfield in Jordan, where the passengers were held hostage. By September 1970, the Jordanian army had finally had enough. A full scale war with the PLO broke out, and after 10 months of fighting, the Palestinians were driven out of the country. Yet as a parting gift, a Palestinian terrorist group known as Black September assassinated the Jordanian Prime Minister.
the PLO then moved into Lebanon, where they allied themselves with Marxist and Socialist movements that were seeking to overthrow Lebanon’s conservative Maronite Christian government. The presence of thousands of Palestinian militants flooding into the country completely destabilized Lebanon and plunged the entire nation into chaos. Less than four years after the PLO was expelled from Jordan, Lebanon found itself in the middle of one of the most bloody and chaotic civil wars in Middle Eastern history from which it is never fully recovered.

In short, Palestinian organizations have not just attacked Israel. They have sowed unrest in many of the neighboring Arab and Muslim countries as well.

So go ahead and say some more stupid sh1t herbie, I personally love it when you talk.

WestCanMan · May 28, 2024

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

That's super informative to me. So did the talks stop then ? Why didn't they continue from the opening position ?

Because no talks can end with a signature below the line: "And we will acknowledge Israel's right to exist as a country."

They occasionally deceive the west with false hopes of negotiations, just so that they can maintain the illusion of wearing big boy pants, but they don't really wear pants.

Khartoum resolution, MH. Go read about it, and then look for examples of times when Arab countries started acknowledging Israel as a country.

Describe for me what the Khartoum resolution says, and find me all the examples you can of its signatories supporting meaningful negotiations.

I know that I'm gonna hear crickets, because there's absolutely nothing for you to come back with.

19 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Ask Arafat why it ended at Camp David.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#Responsibility_for_failure

Arafat knew that he would be killed if he signed off on a peace agreement. His own words.

Edited May 28, 2024 by WestCanMan

I am Groot · May 28, 2024

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Ok, well Yugoslavia then. Basically, you're asking to change the form because they're Arabs is that right ? Not sure.

Nope. Because they're Muslim. If they were Arab Christians we could work with that.

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Sure, if you say so. We almost got a conversation here going but you feel like I'm a fool ... why do you even chat with me ? I put fools (and others) on ignore...

I wasn't talking to you. I was responding to your post. You already said you put me on ignore so why are you reading my posts?

21 hours ago, eyeball said:

Don't you wish you'd listened to me back when I said you should have been filling every cargo plane returning empty to Canada with refugees?

No.

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

They're all terrorist 'supporters' if they voted for Hamas. They let Nazis come here too.

I want neither terrorist supporters nor Nazis here.

I am Groot · May 28, 2024

21 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Is this a supposition that Muslim residents of Gaza are less compatible than Ukrainians born and raised in Europe?

I think we've seen plenty of polls on the views of ME Muslims, not to mention Muslims who have immigrated to places like the US, UK and Europe. Canada, of course, doesn't like to ask rude questions. Anyway, we know these people are going to have values incompatible with ours because we know what their values are.

I am Groot · May 28, 2024

20 hours ago, eyeball said:

Probably for the same reason we didn't take in any Jews way back in the day when we turned them away and help force them onto other people.

Uh, because they don't like Muslims?

WestCanMan · May 28, 2024

21 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Is this a supposition that Muslim residents of Gaza are less compatible than Ukrainians born and raised in Europe?

They have a long track record of supporting the overthrow of their new host gov'ts, roving the countryside looting and killing people and police in their new countries, etc.

Let's see if CBC mentions any of that... 🤣

I am Groot · May 28, 2024

19 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's humanitarianism. I would save civilians without screening them, that's what humanitarian aid is. I would be equally ok with not giving them status and sending them back to get them out of there.

We have no ability to do that. We don't even know how many illegals we have, and the government is not only not going to try to find and deport them but now seems inclined to simply throw up their hands and give everyone here citizenship, regardless of how they got here.

WestCanMan · May 28, 2024

3 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Anyway, we know these people are going to have values incompatible with ours because we know what their values are.

Oh, I dunno, boss.

Ask herbie, MH, eyeball, Trudeau, etc what muslim values are... I'm sure you'll find that they're the epitome of humanitarianism and altruism. Paragons of virtue. Champions of women's right and religious freedoms. That sorta stuff.

Moonlight Graham · May 28, 2024

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Your constant discounting of the Palestinians as having any legitimacy leads us to where we are today. If negotiations are not possible, then you will have constant war - which is what the Israeli PM and Hamas both want. So no more complaining about innocent civilians on either side, this is the situation you are comfortable with...

I've never said that some of their complaints aren't legitimate, that's a strawman. We're here today because most Palestinians, especially their leaders, do not recognize Israel's right to exist. There will be permanent warfare as long as Israel exists. Do you deny this?

They had negotiations for the UN Partition Plan, they failed. Camp David failed. Do research about why. The Palestinian governments have never wanted any final 2-state solution, except as a bad faith attempt to gain concessions to get closer to a 1-state solution of Arab control, which is what they really want. Maybe Abbas is different, I don't know. He's also a holocaust denier so who knows.

My preference is a 2-state solution. That is not the Arab preference, and at times not the Israel preference but at times Israel have also been ready to make a 2-state solution and make concessions. They conceded Gaza while asking nothing in return, and it's been nothing but a disaster, and driven the Israeli government harder to the right. You give them back all of the West Bank (which Israel should probably do) and we're back to pre-1967 borders, and pre-1967 they were also not satisfied and attacked Israel. The UN Partition Plan gave much more land than the pre-1967 borders, and the Arab leaders rejected it and immediately launched an attack on Israel. What has changed?

Every time Arabs launch a major attack on Israel, they end up losing, either many innocent lives or more land. Every single time. We will have peace when Palestinian/Arab leadership stops looking for a military solution, stops attacking Israel and is finally ready for good faith negotiations towards 2 states. And it would take a lot of faith for Israel to trust them on that and make more concessions at this point.