Trudeau's speech supporting the ICC against Israel and a two-state solution is ludicrous

[blackbird]

The simple fact is Canada, the U.S. and other countries demanding a two state solution for Israel is completely unrealistic and shows their complete ignorance of the situation.

The Palestinians have a number of terrorist organizations in their midst which have absolutely no interest in living in peace with Israel.  So to carve up Israel to give them their own state would only weaken Israel and threaten Israel's very existence.  The Israelis know this well but it appears many countries and leaders outside Israel have no understanding at all about this.  It is frustrating to see Trudeau adoringly bow to the ICC ruling saying Israel must stop fighting Hamas and create a two-state solution.  He knows nothing about what he is talking about.  He proves again he is just a puppet globalist who blindly follows whatever the U.N. and it's sister organizations say.

Some European countries have even unilaterally declared they recognize a Palestinian state or will do so.  This is reminiscent of the 1,500 years of European antisemitism that the Jews lived through.  Apparently antisemitism in the world still widely exists and in fact is getting worse.  Unfortunately, Canada is doing a poor job of opposing it and it is worse in Canada as well.  When we have leaders that talk the way they do about the situation in the middle east, what can we expect?  The Liberals and NDP are not helpful.

"

The sad fact is that the only Palestinian state that might arise at the moment would permanently be at war with Israel. A state that supports and glorifies Palestinian suicide-bombers, missile launchers, and rapists against Israel’s civilian population; a state where the airwaves and newspapers are filled with viciously antisemitic and bloodthirsty anti-Israel propaganda; a state whose leaders crisscross the globe and lobby every international institution to vilify and criminalize Israel.

The only Palestinian state that might arise at the moment is a state whose political and religious figures outright deny the historic ties of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel, and demand settlement of Palestinian refugees in pre-1967 Israel as a way of swamping and destroying the Jewish state.

The only Palestinian state that might arise at the moment is, in fact, a state like the current Palestinian Authority in the West Bank, aside from being corrupt and tyrannical towards its people, commits all the above crimes against Israel; or a state like “Hamastan” in Gaza that would repeat the October 7 massacres one thousand times over.

And therefore, the war against the Palestinian threat in Gaza and the West Bank cannot be cut short. That’s an Israeli consensus; rare, but real and valuable."

Preventing peace: The cost of rewarding Hamas with statehood after Oct. 7 - opinion (msn.com)

Edited May 25, 2024 by blackbird

[ExFlyer]

21 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The simple fact is Canada, the U.S. and other countries demanding a two state solution for Israel is completely unrealistic and shows their complete ignorance of the situation.

....

The simple fact is....that you are smarter and wiser than Canada, US and other countries and their intelligence communities.

Wow, a bible thumpin know it all......run for office, you are smarter than entire countries LOL

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

The simple fact is....that you are smarter and wiser than Canada, US and other countries and their intelligence communities.

Wow, a bible thumpin know it all......run for office, you are smarter than entire countries LOL

No, you give me far more credit than I deserve and you are smarter that everyone else here.

I love being a "Bible thumper".  Thanks for the complement.

Edited May 25, 2024 by blackbird

[Venandi]

25 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

The simple fact is....that you are smarter and wiser than Canada, US and other countries and their intelligence communities.

Wow, a bible thumpin know it all......run for office, you are smarter than entire countries LOL

I can't help but wonder if you ever served in any of the UN missions in the area... UNTSO, UNEF, MFO (which wasn't UN, it replaced UNEF)) etc.

Flying in and out doesn't count IMO, I think it requires more time and many conversations with locals to assimilate it all in any meaningful way. Even then solutions are elusive and I don't pretend to have one.

My last tour was the MFO in 89 but I did do a month of training with the IDF in 2010 and personally, I sense that the players.are more entrenched then they were in 89 (and previously). 

In other words, the situation is getting harder to resolve not easier. Hamas will never address the legitimate grievances of Palestinians, they are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. so if peace is to be had, there needs to be a new player for Israel to negotiate with. With no partner for peace the process goes no where.

If left to survive as an entity, Hamas will fight itself to a standstill at every opportunity and happily deflect relief aid to that endeavour.

In short though, I don't know any veterans who have done any or all of those tours (UNEF ended in 79) who would agree with your position. That doesn't mean they aren't out there of course but I'm guessing those who would qualify as rare. 

 

Edited May 25, 2024 by Venandi

[Moonlight Graham]

You don't reward a terrorist massacre and ongoing hostage crisis with calls for statehood.  This only incentivizes that activity.  Nor do you ever give statehood to a government bent on Israel's destruction.  Has nothing been learned from Israel's deoccupation and elections in Gaza in 2005?

Calls for restraint in Rafah are fine.

Edited May 25, 2024 by Moonlight Graham

[ExFlyer]

57 minutes ago, Venandi said:

I can't help but wonder if you ever served in any of the UN missions in the area... UNTSO, UNEF, MFO (which wasn't UN, it replaced UNEF)) etc.

.......

My last tour was the MFO in 89 but I did do a month of training with the IDF in 2010 and personally, I sense that the players.are more entrenched then they were in 89 (and previously). 

In other words, the situation is getting harder to resolve not easier. Hamas will never address the legitimate grievances of Palestinians, they are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. so if peace is to be had, there needs to be a new player for Israel to negotiate with. With no partner for peace the process goes no where.

If left to survive as an entity, Hamas will fight itself to a standstill at every opportunity and happily deflect relief aid to that endeavour.

In short though, I don't know any veterans who have done any or all of those tours (UNEF ended in 79) who would agree with your position. That doesn't mean they aren't out
there of course but I'm guessing those who would qualify as rare. 

 

My comment was to our resident bible thumper. the one that continually preaches scripture and love for all except on this conflict where he is vehemently pro Israel regardless of how many women, children and others have been killed. That is OK with him.

No, did all my 35 years service in the SAR world in Canada (a few international exercises and competitions aside). I did lose colleagues over there when the Buffalo was shot down.

I agree, the situation is bad. It has been bad for thousands of years. It has gotten more tense since Israel was given the territory. As we grow technologically, the tension and fighting grows equally.

Whats quite interesting is the intense defence of either Palestinian, Israelis or Hamas here,on this forum. I dare say that there are very few, if any, that have actually been over there or have personal relationships with people there.

The amalgamation of countries now not siding with Israel grows,. I think, as do they, that Israel has proven it's point and should now temper their attacks and fighting. There is no more to gain unless they do intend to wipe out palestine and it's citizens as has been claimed..

I think international intervention may help. End the conflict on both sides and force Palestinian elections. Maybe the UN can once again be useful.

Lastly, I am not sure what you assume my "position" is. Are you assuming I have picked sides? I have not. I have said numerous times that OI do not care and they could nuke the entire region for all I care.

 

Edited May 25, 2024 by ExFlyer

[Venandi]

35 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

No, did all my 35 years service in the SAR world

For my money that's about as operational as it gets and likely qualifies as something of an oddity in terms of duration of service too... well done.

35 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Whats quite interesting is the intense defence of either Palestinian, Israelis or Hamas here,on this forum. I dare say that there are very few, if any, that have actually been over there or have personal relationships with people there.

 

It's more their take/opinion on what will achieve peace I think, that's how I look at it anyway.

I just don't see it happening with Hamas at the wheel. They chose a COA and should they survive it as an entity, everyone there will be left with the legacy of it for many years to come.

I know a lady who lives in the border Kibbutz's that fell under direct attack from Hamas, she knew everybody there, her car and belongings were trashed. Luck of the draw I guess, she was visiting her daughter in the US at the time.

35 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Israel has proven it's point and should now temper their attacks and fighting. There is no more to gain unless they do intend to wipe out palestine and it's citizens as has been claimed..

They need (or feel the need) to rid themselves of Hamas, unfortunate but I tend to agree. As I see it, nothing goes anywhere with Hamas continuing as a player. This would be over the second Hamas surrendered and released the hostages. Choices have been made... IMO, Palestinians can have peace anytime they want it.

35 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I think international intervention may help. End the conflict on both sides and force Palestinian elections. Maybe the UN can once again be useful.

Rooting for you but I doubt it.

You can separate the belligerents with a blue hat force but that doesn't solve the underlying issues, And (big AND there) Hamas will never (NEVER) IMO address any of the outstanding  issues or legitimate grievances on behalf of the Palestinian people. From the river to the sea isn't a slogan with them, it's a statement of intent.

35 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Lastly, I am not sure what you assume my "position" is. Are you assuming I have picked sides? 

No, professional curiosity I guess.

I just don't know anyone who has spent significant time there who thinks anything good can be accomplished with Hamas in place. That's not to say they heartily approve of what's happening, only that most agree with the idea that one way or another, Hamas has to go.

Edited May 25, 2024 by Venandi

[ExFlyer]

31 minutes ago, Venandi said:

For my money that's about as operational as it gets and likely qualifies as something of an oddity in terms of duration of service too... well done.

I......

I just don't see it happening with Hamas at the wheel. They chose a COA and should they survive it as an entity, everyone there will be left with the legacy of it for many years to come.

......

They need (or feel the need) to rid themselves of Hamas, unfortunate but I tend to agree. As I see it, nothing goes anywhere with Hamas continuing as a player. This would be over the second Hamas surrendered and released the hostages. Choices have been made... IMO, Palestinians can have peace anytime they want it.

Rooting for you but I doubt it.

You can separate the belligerents with a blue hat force but that doesn't solve the underlying issues, And (big AND there) Hamas will never (NEVER) IMO address any of the outstanding  issues or legitimate grievances on behalf of the Palestinian people. From the river to the sea isn't a slogan with them, it's a statement of intent.

.....

.....

I didn't fly for the full career, got promoted out of it but was still in it in other ways.

Getting rid of Hamas will and has to be the want of the people. They need elections and as I see it, the only way that happens is forced to have elections and I think Hamas will be gone.

Having said that, the entire middle east is a shit show. All the countries there are dismayed and singular in their dislike of Israel. Not saying Israel is the only problem but, they are alone there and it is always Israel against the others. So yes, there are underlying issues but...whose are they?

It cannot resolve itself as can be seen by thousands of years of history so, intervention by western countries (UN or other coalitions), as they have done in other countries or regions, is the only way to lessen the terror.

Bottom line, as it is now, only munitions manufacturers are happy.

[CdnFox]

3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

You don't reward a terrorist massacre and ongoing hostage crisis with calls for statehood.  This only incentivizes that activity.  Nor do you ever give statehood to a government bent on Israel's destruction.  Has nothing been learned from Israel's deoccupation and elections in Gaza in 2005?

Calls for restraint in Rafah are fine.

The thing is, well Israel may very well have been willing to accept a two-state solution at one point there's no way they're going to leave Gaza anytime soon. They will be wanting to have a military presence there to make sure that Hamas doesn't rebuild. The two state solution thing was a possibility 6 years ago but I think it'll be quite a while before it's really back on the table for at least the Gaza area

[herbie]

Gee I didn't hear Trudeau say he supported the ICC in his speech. I heard him say they'd consider recognizing Palestine when it's due time.
Just like I've heard both Libs and US Democrats clearly state that Hamas laying down their arms and releasing the hostages must be part of a ceasefire.

Why do some righties insist on outright lies and mistruths in every thread title?

[Dougie93]

4 hours ago, blackbird said:

I love being a "Bible thumper".  Thanks for the complement.

I appreciate your fiery Scots Irish Protestant zeal

Ian Paisley would be proud of you

Dextera Dei

 

[suds]

Consider that if Hamas really wanted to put international pressure on Israel all they'd have to do is release every last one of the hostages. That would be the smart thing to do.  But a few are profiting greatly from all the humanitarian aid that's been flooding in and don't want it to end. The 2 state solution is dead because neither side wants it, nor is it something that can be legislated by the ICC.

[Gaétan]

Revelation 17.12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

The 10 kings are the leaders of NATO, the Lamb is the palestinian people, Israel is the prostitute of the beast. YHVH is the beast.

Edited May 26, 2024 by Gaétan

[CdnFox]

22 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

Revelation 17.12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

15 Then the angel said to me, “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled. 18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”

The 10 kings are the leaders of NATO, the Lamb is the palestinian people, Israel is the prostitute of the beast. YHVH is the beast.

Book of Armaments, 21.07

"And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.' And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large chulapas.

And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out.

Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.'

 

 

 

Edited May 26, 2024 by CdnFox

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, Venandi said:

With no partner for peace the process goes no where.

I think it'll be impossible without secular progressives, from both sides.

The last crack at a peaceful partnership was wrecked by religious conservatives, from both sides.

[CdnFox]

21 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I think it'll be impossible without secular progressives, from both sides.

The last crack at a peaceful partnership was wrecked by religious conservatives, from both sides.

 

It was not. It was wrecked by the Palestinian Authority choosing to side with and recognize Hamas. Had they not chosen to deliberately side with and support a terrorist group bent on the destruction of Israel and had taken the idea of peace seriously they would probably have their own state right now.

[Venandi]

15 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Getting rid of Hamas will and has to be the want of the people

Yes, the people have to want peace and getting rid of the primary impediment to peace would have been a good first step... not electing it in the first place even better.

Unfortunately that choice is off the table now, Israel will remove Hamas as an entity capable of inflicting further harm on them. Stopping short of that objective is to ensure there will be no peace. I believe that's how they see it and I tend to concur with their estimate of the situation.

I get that people don't like it, but I don't see them leaving Hamas as a functioning entity.

 

15 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

...intervention by western countries (UN or other coalitions), as they have done in other countries or regions,

I don't see either side agreeing to that. Israel will never accept foreign meddling in its own defences and forcing western solutions on Islamic peoples hasn't proven to be the most excellent of options either.

I'd love to read the proposed Status of Forces Agreement though.

The trouble here is that Hamas has managed to turn an ethnic struggle over land into a religious event. Based on my experience there and IMO of course, that wasn't the issue prior to Hamas. It was about land and the  legitimate grievances of the Palestinian people, which is a difficult enough thing to solve in and of itself.

I haven't been there (Gaza area) post Hamas but all of it seems to have changed and not for the better. Turning this into a Jihad (and Hamas has worked hard at that) makes peace even more elusive and intervention more difficult than it was before. 

8 hours ago, Gaétan said:

the Lamb is the palestinian people

 

8 hours ago, Gaétan said:

the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings

 

My goodness... scripturally so wrong (so deliberately self serving) that correction falls on deaf ears and coherent thought swallows its own tail. If you are going to put forward a brand new doctrine it should at least be consistent from one paragraph to the next.

You have a lot of amendments to make and I suspect having them received as divinely inspired will prove significantly more challenging than the rewrite itself. Best of luck... 

On the other hand though, the forum has just promoted me to the rank of "collaborator." Might be a good time for me to be quiet eh?

Edited May 26, 2024 by Venandi

[suds]

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Book of Armaments, 21.07

"And Saint Attila raised the hand grenade up on high, saying, 'O Lord, bless this thy hand grenade, that with it thou mayst blow thine enemies to tiny bits, in thy mercy.' And the Lord did grin. And the people did feast upon the lambs, and sloths, and carp, and anchovies, and orangutans, and breakfast cereals, and fruit bats, and large chulapas.

And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. Then shalt thou count to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out.

Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.'

 

 

 

That was some rabbit!  😉

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, Venandi said:

Yes, the people have to want peace and getting rid of the primary impediment to peace would have been a good first step...

Yigal Amir must have figured getting rid of Yitzhak Rabin was the better way to go.

The primary impediment to peace has been the same ever since, religious conservatism. From both sides.

Edited May 26, 2024 by eyeball

[CdnFox]

2 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yigal Amir must have figured getting rid of Yitzhak Rabin was the better way to go.

The primary impediment to peace has been the same ever since, religious conservatism. From both sides.

Repeating a lie doesn't make it true.

Religious conservatism isn't even a factor on the Israeli side and on the Palestinian side while religion is a tool used to help control the people, it really isn't the problem. Muslims and Jews get along in lots of places in the world and it has nothing to do with conservatism or the like. This is about power and political ambition and hatred.

[I am Groot]

23 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I think international intervention may help. End the conflict on both sides and force Palestinian elections. Maybe the UN can once again be useful.

And Hamas would be elected again.

[ExFlyer]

23 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

And Hamas would be elected again.

Oh, your crystal ball predicted that? LOL

They only won with 44% of the vote back then (2007) and it became a dictatorship with no elections since.

[Venandi]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

The primary impediment to peace has been the same ever since, religious conservatism. From both sides.

OK, I don't know what that means, how it can be used productively or even how to respond to it.

If you're suggesting that peace can't happen if Hamas remains a viable entity there then I tend to agree. IMO, peace and Hamas can't even co-exist in the same sentence. Maybe there's a way forward with them at the helm but I just don't see it.

I'll leave it at that I guess... very little of the debate here makes sense to me as it doesn't fit with my experience in the area.

That said, this guy has a perspective worth listening to regardless of your opinion... personally, I find little here to disagree with for whatever that may be worth:

 

 

Edited May 26, 2024 by Venandi

[blackbird]

PM Trudeau says there should be no more military operations in Rafah.

Even though there are thousands of Hamas fighters still in Rafah and Gaza, according to Trudeau, Israel should just back off and let them be.  Of course that means let them re-organize, re-arm and prepare for another attack against Israeli civilians.

Hamas just launched a number of missiles, possibly about 12, against Tel Aviv today.

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Oh, your crystal ball predicted that? LOL

They only won with 44% of the vote back then (2007) and it became a dictatorship with no elections since.

And they've been in charge of the school system for 18 years and raised a whole generation of fanatics. And polls taken both before and since Oct 7 show they would win in both Gaza and the West Bank.

Edited May 26, 2024 by I am Groot