The awe-inspiring conservative counter-offensive against woke nonsense

[WestCanMan]

14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Lots of people think that THAT is woke.

No one thinks that being trans or supporting the right of trans people to do their thing is woke.

There have been trans people since I was born and no one cared where they went dressed as women until they tried to get into girls' bathrooms.

I get that it's not easy being trans, but it's not safe being a little girl.

As an adult, I'd go out of my way to make kids safe, and even to make kids just feel safe. 

The feelings of adults are far less important to me than the safety of kids, and how safe they feel.

It's woke to say that the feelings of trans people comes ahead of the feelings and safety of girls.

Quote

2. 4. You make up opinions in your head that you think that I hold.

2) I'm just telling you what woke is.

4) We talked about Trudeau's hate-mongering. You refused to call it that, but it was blatant. If I said that muslims were very often racist and misogynist you'd call that hate-mongering. 

Quote

3. I can just criticize Trudeau without wanting to beat him.  I guess that's not good enough.

I can also criticize Trudeau without wanting to beat him. That's the case 99% of the time. But when he calls me a racist and misogynist, that's crossing a line where, yeah, he'd definitely get a punch in the face. 

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

But only tribally, I suspect.  It's just code for something you don't like.  I

This is just such a lie.  And it's a lie you repeat so often that its clear its a deliberate attempt at dishonesty to avoid dealing with a subject, which is your bread and butter when it comes to discussions.

Woke isn't just things conservatives don't like. Its extreme leftist ideology that serves no practical purpose other than to put forward an agenda that appeals to the left often to the detriment of people rather than their supposed benefit.

Considering sex ed in schools is not woke.  Demanding gay porn be available to 8 year olds in order to be 'inclusive' is woke.

Saying that hate speech should not be allowed is not terribly woke - saying that it should be a LIFE SENTANCE if you do it is pretty woke.

This is common knowledge but you pretend that nobody knows what woke means.

And you do that because you're a dishonest person who cannot reconcile your own tribal talking points with a logical argument, so this is how you lash out. You should think about that

[Perspektiv]

19 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

it's different.  

It truly isn't. 

19 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You'd rather pretend people are just making a mistake.

Its not a mistake. It's deliberate. Today's woke movement has nothing to do with addressing social issues. Or if it does, its good intent that does more damage than good.

19 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

What do you think that I said?

Nothing.

I see your usual verbal spanking, and how much higher morally than your are from others.

[Perspektiv]

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Woke isn't just things conservatives don't like.

Tons of liberals hate woke.

Anyone with logical thinking, will dislike woke ideology.

Being told what to think. What to believe. Denying any factual rebuttal, because their truth is the only truth.

When you have to describe truth as it being yours, like an opinion, you start to lose anyone in the room who can think for themselves. 

14 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Considering sex ed in schools is not woke.  Demanding gay porn be available to 8 year olds in order to be 'inclusive' is woke.

Its just sad he wants things spelled out and can't read between lines.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

1. It truly isn't. 

2. Its not a mistake. It's deliberate.

3. Today's woke movement has nothing to do with addressing social issues. Or if it does, its good intent that does more damage than good.

4. I see your usual verbal spanking, and how much higher morally than your are from others.

1. You don't even understand what we're talking about here. We were talking about ideology, and specific uses of that word earlier. Defining woke is not the same as defining ideology. There's no political difference in this discussion, it's an etymological difference.

  I suspect you think I'm trying to trick you. So you refuse to even start to discuss it in detail.  Doesn't matter. I already defined work with Groot, who is able to discuss things, even differences, without becoming upset.

2. I agree that it's deliberate. People have intentionally repurposed the word woman to mean a cultural signifier rather than just sex. They used to mean the same thing , woman and female, now they don't... in the public sphere.  It's controversial and new, of course.

3. Of course it's intended to improve social cohesion and make lives happier. Maybe it does an or maybe not.  But I doubt you can prove that it's not working. You will likely just give an opinion, and think that's enough to qualify as an argument.

4. I don't think I said anything about my morality.  Again, if you got that it's on you.  Try not to guess at what I'm thinking about.  Above, I did decry the practice of using anecdotes to try and prove how pervasive or impactful some social trend is. You didn't comment on that. Of course. You just said I said nothing and avoided the substance of what I said.

 

---   ---

Since you're so reluctant to read what I write and try to respond, Let me try to make your argument for you.

You seem to object to the changing of language as it has happened for social reasons with the word woman and the word man.  Your words around this objection often focus on a certain type of persona of the militant progressive. I can understand why you don't like such people, many don't. But I don't buy into your insistence on constructing a framework to justify your opinion based on other reasons.

You just don't like militants. Just say so.

Edited March 3 by Michael Hardner

[Ethan Wylde]

Odd how the right has seized upon woke as being a negative and have hi jacked the word to shame those who respect diversity in attempting to do exactly what they accuse the woke of. Never has a Canadian opposition so blatantly stoked division 

[Perspektiv]

34 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You don't even understand what we're talking about here.

You're assuming I don't. While I may not be as book smart as you, I make up for in life and street smarts.

35 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's controversial and new, of course.

There is nothing controversial about the word woman. Its controversial to today's woke crowd.

It hasn't stopped meaning the same thing that it used to, to everyone else.

37 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Of course it's intended to improve social cohesion and make lives happier.

Find me one happy woke person in today's society. I'll wait.

Its intended to destroy society, because people who think like this today, believe in destroying current systems (such as Christianity, women and what used to be men, and nuclear families), to implement their own.

Its deliberately divisive, because coexistence is just not an option.

Good intentions are behind it, but the unintended consequences are something they don't care much for.

From spikes in crime, homelessness, suicide and many other issues that plague places where woke policies,  take precedent over pragmatism.

Same with gender ideology. 

45 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

the militant progressive

You mean extremists.

I don't understand how MAGA conservatives are extremists, and people trying to destroy society, to implement their vision of a perfect world, are not.

They are cut from the same cloth, and different extremes of it.

Trump won precisely, because of how sick of that BS that Americans are.

Same reason why Poilievre will win in Canada, and many other far right wing government have had sweeping victories in other parts of the world.

Anyone feeling Trump won because he was better, has lost their marbles. He was the right voice at the right time, tapping into a level of anger the government in place, kept ignoring and shaming, even.

[eyeball]

21 hours ago, CdnFox said:

"Woke" has been defined numerous times on this board.  It's not complex.

That's right, it's simply opposite to the state of obliviousness that conservatives exist in.

[Michael Hardner]

50 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. You're assuming I don't.

2. While I may not be as book smart as you, I make up for in life and street smarts.

3. There is nothing controversial about the word woman. Its controversial to today's woke crowd.

4. It hasn't stopped meaning the same thing that it used to, to everyone else.

5. Find me one happy woke person in today's society. I'll wait.

6. Its intended to destroy society, because people who think like this today, believe in destroying current systems (such as Christianity, women and what used to be men, and nuclear families), to implement their own.

7. Its deliberately divisive, because coexistence is just not an option.

8. Good intentions are behind it, but the unintended consequences are something they don't care much for.

9. From spikes in crime, homelessness, suicide and many other issues that plague places where woke policies,  take precedent over pragmatism. Same with gender ideology. 

10. You mean extremists.

11. I don't understand how MAGA conservatives are extremists, and people trying to destroy society, to implement their vision of a perfect world, are not. They are cut from the same cloth, and different extremes of it. Trump won precisely, because of how sick of that BS that Americans are.

12. Same reason why Poilievre will win in Canada, and many other far right wing government have had sweeping victories in other parts of the world.

 

1. Well based on "it truly isn't" ... and "none that suits your liking".   I am thinking that you are confusing two separate discussions on word meaning and definition.    By "different" I mean that those are two different discussions - one with you and me, one with me and Groot.  Does that explain what I meant ?
2. I don't know if you're smarter than me or not.  I don't care - I make my points in discussion WITH you not against you.  It's not one of your street smart kung fu tournaments.  Life isn't a contest 100% of the time.
3. So... it IS controversial...
4. Explain how you see the domain of word meanings.  We have the word "woman" that is now changing in corporate and business life as well as the law.  It hasn't changed as much in "common" meaning, I would agree.  Then you have the word "ideology" which you are also misusing and refusing to engage in with any level of detail to explain, other than I suppose you like to use the word.  How do you feel about word meanings changing ?  Is it ok ?   Who gets to decide when we start/stop using "Negro" "Indian" "ideology" "Queer" etc ?  And when do YOU feel ok with it ?
5. You probably consider ME "woke", am I right ?  I'm as happy as a conservative clam watching eyeball's boat pull away...
6. Meh.  Nobody wants to destroy "current systems" more than populists and I'm not saying that's bad either.
7. Do YOU want to coexist with extremists ?  Or defeat them ?  Honest question.  I myself believe in politics.
8. Ok
9. A casual observation.  You can't connect woke politics with such effects.... homelessness ?  Isn't that primarily an economic cause ?  It's not on you to prove such things, sociologists try to do it and even they fail.
10. Yes, sure if you will.
11. One could probably argue that they both are, as you are doing.
12. You seem to be implying Poilievre is "far right".  That's what a woke person would say but not a conservative.  He has a gay married person and an Indian (Sikh religion) as his deputy leaders.
 --==-- --==-- --==-- --==-- 
Well... at this point we seem to be mostly quibbling about words.  I noticed you cut out large parts of my post and (I assume) don't disagree with them.  If that means that you are mostly put off by "extremists" in the social progressive movement then so be it.  I can accept that.  A lot of people on here, though, seem to take my refusal to get angry over things as my not objecting to them.  Somebody here posted that he would punch Trudeau in the nose if he saw him and (correctly) said that I wouldn't.  But that doesn't make me a Liberal.

[Army Guy]

18 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Strawberry Alarm Clock

Is that your safe word michael ?...It's unique, yet simple... 

[Michael Hardner]

17 hours ago, CdnFox said:

1. This is just such a lie. 
2. And it's a lie you repeat so often that its clear its a deliberate attempt at dishonesty to avoid dealing with a subject, which is your bread and butter when it comes to discussions.
3. Woke isn't just things conservatives don't like. Its extreme leftist ideology that serves no practical purpose other than to put forward an agenda that appeals to the left often to the detriment of people rather than their supposed benefit.
4. Considering sex ed in schools is not woke.  Demanding gay porn be available to 8 year olds in order to be 'inclusive' is woke.
5. Saying that hate speech should not be allowed is not terribly woke - saying that it should be a LIFE SENTANCE [sic] if you do it is pretty woke.
6. This is common knowledge but you pretend that nobody knows what woke means.
7. And you do that because you're a dishonest person who cannot reconcile your own tribal talking points with a logical argument, so this is how you lash out. You should think about that

1. 2. An opinion can't be a lie.  Unless you're saying it's NOT my real opinion, that I DON'T suspect something is based on tribalism.  Bizarre.
3. I already GAVE an offer of a definition to Groot.  I wouldn't call "woke" leftism because it's also corporate, and doesn't have much if anything to do with economics.  If woke's purpose is to put forward an agenda that appeals to the left, isn't it just "leftism" ?  Do they mean the same thing ?
4. Then nobody is woke.  Nobody is demanding gay porn be available to 8 year olds.  Nobody.
5. I think that the Liberal bill is pretty crazy in the respect you pointed out but to be clear the judge would decide and life sentence is not mandatory there.
6. Just because you think you do, doesn't mean everybody does.  The last poster I asked about this seemed to think trans rights established in law was NOT woke.  That had me scratching my head.  Like I say, it's one of those adjectives like "cool" or "spicy" or "sh1tty" that are relative and subjective.  But I still tried to define it above.
7. I don't think so.  My belief here is that you are extremely offended and hurt when the points of your illogic are pointed out to you.  I don't know how to help you.  For my part, I like being challenged and I admit mistakes, I say "mea culpa" (meaning, in effect, "my fault") and I change my opinions on social issues.  I don't see these chats as duels but little JENGA sessions... we build ideas until contradictions bring down our logical structures.  Such fun.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

That's right, it's simply opposite to the state of obliviousness that conservatives exist in.

Lying sack of leftist apologist shithead has also been described here before But that's for the refresher  

[I am Groot]

22 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

No one says that you have to love Trump to be conservative, but when you propagate leftard drivel about Trump, you're outing yourself. 

Trump is not and never has been a conservative.

[I am Groot]

21 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Sure, but I don't see other conservatives saying the same things as you. I see liberals saying the same things as you. 

I'm not sure you know what a conservative is.

[I am Groot]

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Respectfully, I don't think that one works.  I think I could find some stuff that's "woke" to you that doesn't fit that definition, but fair enough. 

I don't insist it is all-encompassing. However, I bet almost anything else you can think of flows from the hierarchy of importance and the demand for apologizing for the existence of white history and success and that we were mean to people's ancestors (as their ancestors were mean to others).

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 I know that I am conservative, but many a chud will look at the fact that I think Trump is ridiculous as evidence that I am not.  I

Lots of conservatives dislike Trump, including me. It is the hierarchy I mentioned, and the numerous times you have adhered so strictly to it on subjects like trans and the rest of the rainbow, including drag queens, as well as on subjects like Muslims, and until recently immigration that makes people question how conservative you are.

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. My contention is that this stuff will continue after Poilievre is elected and it will NOT be reported as much by periodicals that support him such as the National Post and The Rebel.  Why ?  Because it will be embarrassing to a conservative government, and they wouldn't be able to do as much about it as they would like to.

The Post has not pulled away from covering the stuff in schools that Fat Ford has done nothing about. In fact, his ministry is participating in it by embracing critical race theory and demanding all teachers be indoctrinated in antiracism.

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. I don't think he will be able to have enough influence to eradicate this part of our culture.  The effort required would be huge, and any slip-up or failure would make him look ineffectual.  He'll move on to real problems, which says a lot about why we talk about this stuff today.  

I agree. I think his focus will be mainly on economic issues. He will probably slash the DEI stuff in government, and the requirement the government puts on suppliers and universities to adhere to it if they want business or grants. I think he will cut the money going to mainstream media and, I hope, cancel some of the stupider stuff Trudeau has done and is doing, like his online hate bill. I don't really want the CBC eliminated. I would prefer it be reformed, and the CRTC largely eliminated. Or at least, its powers slashed.

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

4. Well... I saw a woman firefighter today.  She was probably in her 40s.  So... her family benefited from DEI and probably did so decades ago.  I'm not speaking to the merits or lack thereof here... I just don't see it going away at this point, but I do see it becoming less prevalent.  CBC Radio finally hired a white guy for their morning show in Toronto after 12 years of non-white males so there is a limit.

It started with the universities. The rot in academia has to be addressed. It could be, if Poilievre really put his mind to it. He could demand unbiased teaching and withhold grants to the universities if they don't follow through. If he really wanted to go after them he could use some kind of carrot and stick thing to encourage the provinces to act, as well.

[Perspektiv]

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Life isn't a contest 100% of the time.

Debating with you, is.

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So... it IS controversial

People are trying to make it controversial. It isn't, and never will be. There you go twisting words, again.

You should open a pretzel shop. My hunch tells me you would be a natural. 

Either that, or spinning yarn. 

Transferable skills, is what I call them.

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Then you have the word "ideology" which you are also misusing

In your opinion. My use of it, fits the definition guidelines. I can't satisfy everyone.

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You probably consider ME "woke"

No, you strike me as pompous.

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Do YOU want to coexist with extremists ? 

I had a racist best friend. My sibling and many who surround me, are far leftists. I can coexist with anyone. I don't need to agree with you.

I draw the line at people wanting to change my way of life by force.

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You can't connect woke politics with such effects.... homelessness ?

Sure you can. You make life so insanely hard to afford, you make people go homeless in droves. You focus on safe injection spaces, and don't penalize crime, and as a result  incentivize it.

Not a coincidence that woke politics gets you tent cities, sky high overdose rates, violent crime and sexual assault. At least suicide rates are stable, right?

God forbid someone want to take their lives, after losing everything. Then you could statistically calculate that s**t is hitting the fan for many Canadians due to woke policies.

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You seem to be implying Poilievre is "far right". 

He's being labeled as MAGA, by detractors. He is far from it. Canadians voting won't be dense enough to buy the BS that Trudeau is selling.

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Somebody here posted that he would punch Trudeau in the nose if he saw him and (correctly) said that I wouldn't. 

Nor would I. I have nothing against him, personally.

He seems like an alright guy, if you took politics out of the mix. I could easily see myself having a beer with a guy like this.

I will vote him out, and through it wish him a happy retirement as far away from politics as possible. Preferably in Jamaica.

He is incompetent at his job. Doesn't justify hurting him or his family, but in any other job it would likely result in disciplinary action or your dismissal.

I just want him fired.

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Debating with you, is.

2. People are trying to make it controversial. It isn't, and never will be. There you go twisting words, again.

3. You should open a pretzel shop. My hunch tells me you would be a natural. 

Either that, or spinning yarn. 

Transferable skills, is what I call them.

4. In your opinion. My use of it, fits the definition guidelines. I can't satisfy everyone.

5. No, you strike me as pompous.

6. I had a racist best friend. My sibling and many who surround me, are far leftists. I can coexist with anyone. I don't need to agree with you.

I draw the line at people wanting to change my way of life by force.

7. Sure you can. You make life so insanely hard to afford, you make people go homeless in droves. You focus on safe injection spaces, and don't penalize crime, and as a result  incentivize it.

Not a coincidence that woke politics gets you tent cities, sky high overdose rates, violent crime and sexual assault. At least suicide rates are stable, right?

God forbid someone want to take their lives, after losing everything. Then you could statistically calculate that s**t is hitting the fan for many Canadians due to woke policies.

8. He's being labeled as MAGA, by detractors. He is far from it. Canadians voting won't be dense enough to buy the BS that Trudeau is selling.

9. Nor would I. I have nothing against him, personally.

He seems like an alright guy, if you took politics out of the mix. I could easily see myself having a beer with a guy like this.

I will vote him out, and through it wish him a happy retirement as far away from politics as possible. Preferably in Jamaica.

He is incompetent at his job. Doesn't justify hurting him or his family, but in any other job it would likely result in disciplinary action or your dismissal.

I just want him fired.

 

1. I don't see why it has to be.  I don't feel that way about discussion with you.

2. I'm not twisting words, I'm giving an opinion.  Certainly there's a lot of discussion on this board about how people use/misuse that word.  That's significant IMO.

3. Your opinion.

4. Your use doesn't meet the definition. Go back and read the thread.  

5. Well they're not opposites.  I could be both.  I take it from the 'no' part that you don't think that I am woke.  🤔 Ok.

6. Ok.  Good to know.

7. No, you're out on a limb now.  How exactly does "wokeness" make the cost of living high?  How does it spike real estate costs and increase food prices?  You appear to be stretching whatever meaning you're working with... I thought it was about social progression not economics.

8. Fine.  Your wording in the previous post made me think that you were saying so.

9. Ok.

 

.......

I still would have liked to hear you explain how you see it when word meanings change, it use changes.  You probably don't want to go near that one though.

Edited March 4 by Michael Hardner

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, I am Groot said:

I'm not sure you know what a conservative is.

More importantly though he can tell you precisely what a liberal is.

Woke, in a word. Except he needs 400 - 500 words.

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

More importantly though he can tell you precisely what a liberal is.

Woke, in a word. Except he needs 400 - 500 words.

I defined it, but it's still subjective:

"woke" means "extreme progressivity"

 

Caseinpoint- WestCan responded by saying gay marriage and trans rights for adults AREN'T woke.

I think that validates the approach I took.

[WestCanMan]

12 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Tons of liberals hate woke.

There are old gay dudes who can remember when their lives were in danger if they got caught. 

Those guys fought long and hard to get to a place where they're respected and can have a semblance of a decent life, and suddenly their movement has been hijacked by guys who want to dress up as drag queens - and let's not pretend that drag queen outfits aren't sexual in nature - to read to children, and they're supposed to go along with that?

Who's to say that gay people want drag queens to read books to little kids? How does that even make sense?

I'm straight and I don't think that dominatrixes should read to kids. 

I feel bad for leftists who aren't woke jokes. 

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I defined it, but it's still subjective:

"woke" means "extreme progressivity"

I was going to say left-wing chud but I figured the other chuds would resent the association.

[WestCanMan]

41 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

"woke" means "extreme progressivity"

Only if we agree that "progressivity" doesn't have anything to do with the actual word "progress".

Gay rights and women's rights made actual progress through the '70s-'90s the same way that unions made progress before I was born. At various points in time gays were dying, labourers were dying, and girls who were raped or made a mistake had to get their baby yanked out with a clothes-hanger. That needed to change.

Unions used to make progress on behalf of labourers. Liberals used to make progress on behalf of gays and to a lesser extent women. Gays could walk outside in the sun and get married, union workers had the right to a safe workplace and better pay, women could get better jobs with better pay, etc. That was progress.

A long time ago unions went too far. Industries finally had enough and moved offshore when sick days and vacation days and benefits, etc, etc got out of hand. 

Liberals are going too far as well. They went from making actual progress to tilting at windmills. Prog has come to mean dolt.

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

"woke" means "extreme progressivity"

Hmm, maybe.  I think it has something to do specifically with identity politics though.  Like, pharmacare or even "guaranteed minimum income" isn't woke at all.

Edited March 4 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

On 3/2/2024 at 6:13 PM, Michael Hardner said:

1. Respectfully, I don't think that one works.  I think I could find some stuff that's "woke" to you that doesn't fit that definition, but fair enough.

What would be an example?

I think their defintion is more or less correct, or at least more specific and therefore more accurate than yours.  As I said, woke is related to identity politics.

Edited March 4 by Moonlight Graham

[Moonlight Graham]

On 3/2/2024 at 6:13 PM, Michael Hardner said:

I know that I am conservative, but many a chud will look at the fact that I think Trump is ridiculous as evidence that I am not.  In fact, our two most prolific and well-spoken conservatives on here, Argus and Bush Cheney, left in the wake of the rise of Trumpism (at least my assessment there).

The only thing you seem conservative about is your desire to a return to an era when people were more civil.  Most if not all of your social views are mainstream progressive.  Even your economic views might be called "progressive".  Argus and BC2004 and all the other conservatives on MLW have socially conservatives views that you don't share, and probably many economically conservative views you don't share.  So calling yourself a "conservative" is at best confusing to others.

I'd call you a polite progressive.