Zeitgeist Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 17 minutes ago, eyeball said: Our society has been like Swiss cheese for decades. Good grief. I was in the process of getting my Mom into a seniors home, the incubator she called it, when the first lock-down occurred. Oddly enough I practically had every highways and ferry between me and Vancouver to myself. I was never pulled over, arrested or questioned by the authorities for being out and about. This heavy-handed unconstitutional lock-down was no where near as heavy-handed as you're making it sound. According to you we lived in Nazi Germany. People that play fast and loose with definitions and perceptions sacrifice their ability to think straight. I don’t know what your work day looked like, but I can tell you that I had to deal directly with mental health and other issues for a number of personnel and families. The gaps left by the pandemic are enormous and unprecedented. Certainly nothing has impacted society on this scale since at least WW2. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said: I don’t know what your work day looked like, but I can tell you that I had to deal directly with mental health and other issues for a number of personnel and families. The company I worked for shut down for a year. Bookings in my own business evaporated. In addition to dealing with my Mom's issues my wife and I both needed surgery. It was a little stressful sure. I think the people who suffered the greatest mental health issues by far are those who insisted on looking at everything through a crazy lens of conspiracy, mistrust and ideological gas. I can't imagine having to deal with everything else I had on my plate with all that other shit on top of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 21 minutes ago, eyeball said: The company I worked for shut down for a year. Bookings in my own business evaporated. In addition to dealing with my Mom's issues my wife and I both needed surgery. It was a little stressful sure. I think the people who suffered the greatest mental health issues by far are those who insisted on looking at everything through a crazy lens of conspiracy, mistrust and ideological gas. I can't imagine having to deal with everything else I had on my plate with all that other shit on top of it. Most of the people I saw who struggled were dealing with a home full of people trying to work and be students remotely who simply couldn’t manage in their tight spaces. Sleep routines, opportunities for socializing and team sports were gone for many, and these problems were worsened by a generalized anxiety about the virus and where this was all going. The vaccine offered hope and relief, but when its availability didn’t reduce the lockdowns, masking, etc., that’s when the concerns about government overreach and constitutional violations heightened. The bottom line is that you can only justify totalitarian control for so long before people lose their shit. The conspiracy worries were and are still warranted, because if we learned anything from the pandemic, it’s that basic rights and freedoms can be removed quite easily and quickly, and the removal can be directed beyond our borders somewhat unaccountably. I don’t discount the virtue of saving lives, but there are many ways to handle crises, and if there isn’t an open testing of the latest science and policy options, the system will be challenged quickly. So there’s a balancing of managing healthcare needs with many other considerations. That balance wasn’t always right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said: The bottom line is that you can only justify totalitarian control for so long Totalitarian control? I'm sorry but we'll never see eye to eye so long as you refuse to get a better grip on reality. I sure as hell hope your connection to these people wasn't as an advisor and included blaming totalitarian control as part of their means of getting a grip. You might as well have given them LSD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 (edited) 32 minutes ago, eyeball said: Totalitarian control? I'm sorry but we'll never see eye to eye so long as you refuse to get a better grip on reality. I sure as hell hope your connection to these people wasn't as an advisor and included blaming totalitarian control as part of their means of getting a grip. You might as well have given them LSD. You don’t understand the meaning of basic rights such as freedom of movement, medical discretion, etc. I’m not rehashing this with you. It was totalitarian in the factual sense of a number of basic constitutional rights waived. The reasons were not necessarily totalitarian. Do you think that the Emergencies Act is also run of the mill daily liberal democracy? We won’t agree on this, so yank someone else’s chain. Edited January 26 by Zeitgeist 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 26 Report Share Posted January 26 (edited) 53 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: freedom of movement, Did you miss where I said I was driving around on nearly empty highways and ferries during the first lockdown? I saw no checkpoints no one asked me for my papers. I even flaunted the ferry safety rules that said I needed to leave my vehicle and go upstairs. Imagine that! Like I said normality goes a little sideways. 53 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: It was totalitarian in the factual sense of a number of basic constitutional rights waived. The reasons were not necessarily totalitarian. But they were always temporary. Except to all the crazy people who were convinced the pandemic was the culminating act of WEF, Big Pharma and the left seizing worldwide control. 53 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Do you think that the Emergencies Act is also run of the mill daily liberal democracy? Yes I do because it's a sensible thing to have in case of an emergency. And I think it's use was as temporary as most of the measures everyone was being asked to take. Most of the time I masked up and used disinfectant it was out of respect for frontline workers. 53 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: We won’t agree on this, so yank someone else’s chain Speaking of which, I can't help but wonder just how far you people will go given the emergency and crisis of totalitarianism you're so convinced we're in. Apparently it'll take a strong leader. Edited January 26 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 2 hours ago, eyeball said: Did you miss where I said I was driving around on nearly empty highways and ferries during the first lockdown? I saw no checkpoints no one asked me for my papers. I even flaunted the ferry safety rules that said I needed to leave my vehicle and go upstairs. Imagine that! Like I said normality goes a little sideways. But they were always temporary. Except to all the crazy people who were convinced the pandemic was the culminating act of WEF, Big Pharma and the left seizing worldwide control. Yes I do because it's a sensible thing to have in case of an emergency. And I think it's use was as temporary as most of the measures everyone was being asked to take. Most of the time I masked up and used disinfectant it was out of respect for frontline workers. Speaking of which, I can't help but wonder just how far you people will go given the emergency and crisis of totalitarianism you're so convinced we're in. Apparently it'll take a strong leader. I want a leader who respects the constitution and the free market of goods and ideas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 52 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: I want a leader who respects the constitution and the free market of goods and ideas. You'll get no argument from me unless it looks like they share their supporters respect for the Tucker Carlsons, Jordan Petersons and Conrad Black's of the world. Mostly the Black's of the world though. For reasons that should be obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 27 Author Report Share Posted January 27 4 hours ago, eyeball said: You'll get no argument from me unless it looks like they share their supporters respect for the Tucker Carlsons, Jordan Petersons and Conrad Black's of the world. Mostly the Black's of the world though. For reasons that should be obvious. LOL - we will absolutely get an argument from you.' Lets face it - 'must be left of castro' is also one of your requirements. Thats why you support justin or the party that keeps him in power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 Joke PM, joke "parliament", joke "court": a parody of democracy. 7 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: I want a leader who respects the constitution and the free market of goods and ideas. Oh f-ck it's not the leaders who enshrine constitutions, but citizens who hold their governments and leaders in check and accountable. At all times, too. Is there no hope, here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 (edited) 14 hours ago, eyeball said: You'll get no argument from me unless it looks like they share their supporters respect for the Tucker Carlsons, Jordan Petersons and Conrad Black's of the world. Mostly the Black's of the world though. For reasons that should be obvious. That’s why many on the left are responsible for trying to game the system, and I’m saying this as someone who was a member of the Liberal party. You can disagree with someone or dislike them, but you can’t seek to remove their constitutional rights on that basis. Making Peterson take re-education programs is clearly pure animus and vindictiveness. I didn’t like Trump, but I can see how a Democrat dominated court making Trump pay $83 million to someone in a he said she said trial is pure animosity. Can people on the right do this? Yes, it happened to Bill Clinton over Lewinsky. The courts are not a tool for eliminating political opponents, nor is the Emergencies Act or the police. Sorry buddy, but you often come across as caring more about any kind of approach that will advance your perspective than the importance of upholding the integrity of liberal democratic institutions and processes, including the Charter. I see that Jan. 6 was a problem and there should be reasonable consequences for some people, not a blanket throwing hundreds of people in jail for many years. Perspective is important. Referring to people who disagree with you as “you people” or “chuds” or “deplorables” is exactly why Trump will get elected, because there’s something unfairly judgemental and snobby about much of the characterization of his supporters. I remember the whole Black shredding of files controversy, but he went to jail and the media and his critics definitely went after him. He’s still one of the smartest, most knowledgeable journalists and social commentators alive. I would be grateful for the healthy critiques that these figures provide, because they are among the few who are brave enough to say what they think damn the consequences. Most people can’t afford to take that risk. This is more necessary than ever in a country where there’s an unhealthy alliance between government and media due to funding, and where one political party has dominated the national narrative for so long and appointed so many judges and senators that it’s hard to find much honest questioning of the powers that be. Edited January 27 by Zeitgeist 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 The court once again demonstrated what there's nothing: no effective checks and controls to prevent an abuse of power by a majority government or effectively such. Just none. Yes you can just do it and just watch you. Nothing to add. Thank you. The cheap judicial-like pantomime comes as a bonus, cheap and entirely unusable. In a modern functional democratic society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 (edited) 22 minutes ago, myata said: The court once again demonstrated what there's nothing: no effective checks and controls to prevent an abuse of power by a majority government or effectively such. Just none. Yes you can just do it and just watch you. Nothing to add. Thank you. The cheap judicial-like pantomime comes as a bonus, cheap and entirely unusable. In a modern functional democratic society. Yes, except that some systems are better equipped to prevent excesses and manipulation than others. Canada still has a lot going for it: one of the best educated populations that’s one of the most cohesive socially, in a relatively safe and prosperous country, rich in resources, democratic traditions, and ideas. We struggle with productivity. We currently struggle with free speech and a highly interventionist government that has overburdened the people with debt, dubious ideology, and bureaucracy. We give too much money to government to give back to us at a financial loss for the sake of programs many people don’t really want, need, or like. We’re also fed too much woke tripe that few people actually believe or want but that will cost taxpayers a fortune in “equity”, “reparations”, and “climate policy” that doesn’t achieve even its own intended goals. Waste, dubious ideology, higher living and housing costs, less free exchange of ideas, slow moving and expensive big government… — oh, and excessive poorly managed immigration. Edited January 27 by Zeitgeist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 9 hours ago, myata said: Joke PM, joke "parliament", joke "court": a parody of democracy. Oh f-ck it's not the leaders who enshrine constitutions, but citizens who hold their governments and leaders in check and accountable. At all times, too. Is there no hope, here? There's supposed to be a middle-man there, the media, but in Canada that wasn't the case because the media here operated exclusively as the propaganda wing for the gov't, and tech giants like Google and Twitter were their internet guard dogs. There was a massive firewall between Canadians and the truth, and with that gap between knowledge and reality, how were Canadians supposed to hold the gov't accountable? What would the avg Canadian even say aside from "Thank you for saving us all from certain death and the unvaxed horde, Mr PM, sir"? As long as this unholy matrimony between the PM and media exists, accountability is never coming... After the most mild punishment in the history of the earth is meted out, the MSM will say: "That was dealt with appropriately" and we'll all move on, 75% of us as happy as little clams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suds Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: This is more necessary than ever in a country where there’s an unhealthy alliance between government and media due to funding, and where one political party has dominated the national narrative for so long and appointed so many judges and senators that it’s hard to find much honest questioning of the powers that be. Two people along with two civil rights groups (the 'Canadian Civil Liberties Association' and the 'Canadian Constitution Foundation') were the ones who applied for the judicial review of the proclamation declaring a 'Public Order Emergency'. In turn, they deserve our respect and support because they're the ones who keep watch while we sleep. Great posts by the way! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 27 Report Share Posted January 27 (edited) 9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: The courts are not a tool for eliminating political opponents, nor is the Emergencies Act or the police. Sorry buddy, but you often come across as caring more about any kind of approach that will advance your perspective than the importance of upholding the integrity of liberal democratic institutions and processes, including the Charter. There you go again with your exaggerated perception - recall the references to Tienanmen Sq when the EA was used. It's no wonder your sorry assessment of my perception is even more ridiculous. So do you think our Charter too woke or not conservative enough? Edited January 27 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said: This is more necessary than ever in a country where there’s an unhealthy alliance between government and media due to funding, and where one political party has dominated the national narrative for so long and appointed so many judges and senators that it’s hard to find much honest questioning of the powers that be. The big danger of having one party like the Liberals in power so long is they become arrogant and dictatorial. We saw that with Bills C10 and C11 where they have given the CRTC such powers that would enable them to actually control social media and internet content. Another problem with our system is it allows one party to stack the supreme court and other courts. This is why we now have medical assistance in dying and also why it is now being expanded to included people with mental problems, which could allow almost anyone to choose MAID. The ironic thing is a man by the name of Law has recently been charged or will be for mailing out suicide medications to people. He may be charged with first degree murder. That is ironic since MAID is doing almost exactly the same thing. It is allowing people to received assistance in committing suicide but it is not considered illegal or as murder. What is the difference? This guy may be able to claim as a defence that the Canadian government has already in effect legalized suicide with MAID and is expanding it to people who claim mental issues. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 1 hour ago, eyeball said: There you go again with your exaggerated perception - recall the references to Tienanmen Sq when the EA was used. It's no wonder your sorry assessment of my perception is even more ridiculous. So do you think our Charter too woke or not conservative enough? Not enough on property rights. Not sure it’s robust enough in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said: Not enough on property rights. Not sure it’s robust enough in general. So not woke enough? That's interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeitgeist Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 (edited) 36 minutes ago, eyeball said: So not woke enough? That's interesting. Oh it’s plenty woke. Trans rights are now pushing out women’s and children’s rights. Who knew that the ultimate sexist male move against women would be to take on women’s appearances, beat them at women’s sports, and violate their privacy. But that’s how it goes. “Trans rights are human rights.! Trans women are women!” Oh and JK Rowling is apparently evil now. So, those rights are also in the mix. Edited January 28 by Zeitgeist 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 Basically the federal government can do whatever it wishes and the Charter can not stop them. It took two years to get a ruling on the Emergencies Act use in February 2022. The truth is the Supreme Court using the Charter can only be used to get a ruling long after the fact. It cannot change what was done unconstitutionally two years ago. Sure a person who has the money could take something to a lower court, but the government can simply appeal it and they have unlimited money to oppose the ordinary people. Hence it is not worth the paper it is written on. People thought the Charter was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CdnFox Posted January 28 Author Report Share Posted January 28 4 hours ago, eyeball said: There you go again with your exaggerated perception - recall the references to Tienanmen Sq when the EA was used. It's no wonder your sorry assessment of my perception is even more ridiculous. dude - it's the same damn thing. Either there is a line or there isn't. Either rights are respected or not. And you're the guy who got his panties in a knot screaming trans kids should have a right to privacy - but the right not to have your bank account and property sized against your human rights is fine and 'why are you making this a big deal'. As i've said frequently one of the favorite leftie debate tactics is "it's no big deal, why are you even talking about it". it's utter bullshit. You're all over the right to protest - but if it's illegally taken away from people you don't like you're fine. Yeash. Mr "i want transparency" as well as "lock up my political opponents'. Give me a break. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 11 hours ago, WestCanMan said: accountability is never coming... It was a sleepy faraway haven where nothing ever happens expect once in a long while. But was a long time back; these days, the things are changing fast and we're equipped no better and loathe even a slightest notion of a meaningful change. Not a good position, by any count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted January 28 Report Share Posted January 28 (edited) 11 hours ago, myata said: It was a sleepy faraway haven where nothing ever happens expect once in a long while. It sounds like you're talking about the Senate. I honestly thought that their existence was a royal farce until they rose from the dead and started voting down the Emergencies Act. I lost a $100 bet because I thought that they'd get this thing working before our Senate did anything useful: Edited January 28 by WestCanMan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 29 Report Share Posted January 29 So the body handpicked by the monarch will keep him in check? Throw the lap "ombudsmen" and "commissioners" in for a great show. Is it serious, in this day and age as a substitute of a functional democracy? Who could see it as serious? Debilitating senility? Or only a democratic farce, as designed and fully intended from the day one of the great democracy? Is there any essential difference? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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