CBC's Pro-Palestine Coverage

[WestCanMan]

When a news org wants you to take a side, they give the victims from their chosen people faces and backstories, and the victims from the other side remain anonymous, mere numbers. "Care for these innocent, beautiful people - forget about those ones." 

Context goes out the window when they're discussing victimhood. Relevant facts are omitted in favour of sensationalized anecdotes. I just heard the "story" about a nice old Palestinian guy who was just out picking olives when a bunch of racist Jews killed him. 

1) No one knows if that even happened

2) That was literally the experience of every Jew in the ME while the Ottoman empire was busy doing everything that Israel is accused of for about 500 years. 

There are also thousands of stories about Israelis who were in their beds when terrorists came for them. We're just not hearing about them anymore. They're no longer relevant as far as CBC is concerned. 

Now CBC is constantly bringing us the stories of people who've lost loved ones in Gaza: "I've lost 16 family members. I've lost 34 family members..." Hmmmmm...

Yup. Sure ya did. And when you think about their loss, do you ever wonder:

• why was this war was started in the first place?
• why didn't they evacuate when they were given notice that the Israelis would be targeting the terrorists among them? Is it because they were prevented from leaving by Hamas?
• were any of your dead family members terrorists, or terrorist supporters?
• why is it that the terrorists get to live in bunkers and the civilians have to be exposed to danger? With the Israelis it's the other way around - their soldiers are out fighting while their civilians hide...

Let's keep in mind: 

• Hamas started this by targeting women and children - not soldiers
• Hamas has been firing rockets at Israeli civilians this whole time 
• Hamas's stated goal is to wipe Israel from the map, and killing Israeli citizens is their desired path to victory 
• Hamas soldiers individually target women and children, burn them to death, rape them, kill them, and take them to use as meat shields. The Israelis don't target civilians at all
• The only reason there isn't peace right now is because of Hamas's own bigotry - the Palestinians have always rejected a two-state solution. They will only be happy with a muslim-controlled state with people of other religions as second-class citizens. 

CBC is busy trying to brainwash people into believing that Hamas should be allowed to commit a massive terrorist attack against Israel and then run, and Israel should just chuck their burned corpses into a hole and just wait for the next attack.

This "Hate Israel" approach will just snowball, because the muslim world is not taking any accountability from the other side. 

The CBC's cute whitewashing of the bigotry behind Hamas violence, their selection of innocent victims, and completely ignoring Hamas's culpability in the deaths of the Palestinians ignores the reality of how many more Israeli children will die in their beds if we keep pretending that Hamas is not evil. 

When I see rage against Hamas and against their goal of wiping out Israel, I will start to hear their words. When I start to hear them talking about Israel's right to exist I will hear them. Right now I just see their bigotry. CBC is just fanning the flames.

Edited October 28, 2023 by WestCanMan

[BeaverFever]

59 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

When a news org wants you to take a side, they give the victims from their chosen people faces and backstories, and the victims from the other side remain anonymous, mere numbers. "Care for these innocent, beautiful people - forget about those ones." 

Context goes out the window when they're discussing victimhood. Relevant facts are omitted in favour of sensationalized anecdotes. I just heard the "story" about a nice old Palestinian guy who was just out picking olives when a bunch of racist Jews killed him. 

1) No one knows if that even happened

2) That was literally the experience of every Jew in the ME while the Ottoman empire was busy doing everything that Israel is accused of for about 500 years. 

There are also thousands of stories about Israelis who were in their beds when terrorists came for them. We're just not hearing about them anymore. They're no longer relevant as far as CBC is concerned. 

Now CBC is constantly bringing us the stories of people who've lost loved ones in Gaza: "I've lost 16 family members. I've lost 34 family members..." Hmmmmm...

Yup. Sure ya did. And when you think about their loss, do you ever wonder:

• why was this war was started in the first place?
• why didn't they evacuate when they were given notice that the Israelis would be targeting the terrorists among them? Is it because they were prevented from leaving by Hamas?
• were any of your dead family members terrorists, or terrorist supporters?
• why is it that the terrorists get to live in bunkers and the civilians have to be exposed to danger? With the Israelis it's the other way around - their soldiers are out fighting while their civilians hide...

Let's keep in mind: 

• Hamas started this by targeting women and children - not soldiers
• Hamas has been firing rockets at Israeli civilians this whole time 
• Hamas's stated goal is to wipe Israel from the map, and killing Israeli citizens is their desired path to victory 
• Hamas soldiers individually target women and children, burn them to death, rape them, kill them, and take them to use as meat shields. The Israelis don't target civilians at all
• The only reason there isn't peace right now is because of Hamas's own bigotry - the Palestinians have always rejected a two-state solution. They will only be happy with a muslim-controlled state with people of other religions as second-class citizens. 

CBC is busy trying to brainwash people into believing that Hamas should be allowed to commit a massive terrorist attack against Israel and then run, and Israel should just chuck their burned corpses into a hole and just wait for the next attack.

This "Hate Israel" approach will just snowball, because the muslim world is not taking any accountability from the other side. 

The CBC's cute whitewashing of the bigotry behind Hamas violence, their selection of innocent victims, and completely ignoring Hamas's culpability in the deaths of the Palestinians ignores the reality of how many more Israeli children will die in their beds if we keep pretending that Hamas is not evil. 

When I see rage against Hamas and against their goal of wiping out Israel, I will start to hear their words. When I start to hear them talking about Israel's right to exist I will hear them. Right now I just see their bigotry. CBC is just fanning the flames.

The only false narrative here is yours. There is plenty of humanizing coverage of Israeli and also Canadian victims of the Hamas attack. You’re just angry because Palestinian victims are also being humanized and you believe that as a race none of them deserve to be seen as human.  You honestly believe that a news editor should be spiking a story about Palestinian victims because of the alleged and misleading conduct of the Ottoman Empire?
 

And by the way Jews were better treated by the Ottomans than by European Christians and Jews actually fled TO the Ottoman Empire from Christian persecution in Europe  

 

“Even though Jews were placed under special restrictions in the Ottoman Empire, there was still a vibrant Jewish culture in certain regions of the Empire. This was especially true for the Sephardic Jews, who had large amounts of political and cultural influence in the Ottoman Empire….The Ottoman Empire became a safe haven for Jews from the Iberian Peninsula fleeing persecution (see Alhambra Decree). By the end of the 16th century, the Ottoman Empire had the largest Jewish population in the world”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#:~:text=The Ottoman Empire became a,s combined figure of 75%2C000.

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

When I start to hear them talking about Israel's right to exist I will hear them.

The Palestinian Authority officially recognized Israel’s right to exist in 1993 so apparently you’re hard of hearing.  Meanwhile Israel still refuses to recognize Palestine’s right to exist and continues to build illegal settlements in Occupied Territories.

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

CBC is busy trying to brainwash people into believing that Hamas should be allowed to commit a massive terrorist attack against Israel and then run,

Lies

[Canadian_Cavalier]

I'm getting really sick of the Israeli narrative that you're antisemitic if you don't tow the line 100% of the time for them. Israel is not entitled to the allegiance of other countries, including ours. Israel has never fought side-by-side in any war with us.

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The only false narrative here is yours. There is plenty of humanizing coverage of Israeli and also Canadian victims of the Hamas attack. You’re just angry because Palestinian victims are also being humanized and you believe that as a race none of them deserve to be seen as human.  

I believe that when people say "I have 34 family members and friends who died" that's BS.

It's also crap to talk about this with no context whatsoever. It's almost a certainty that if she did know that many people, some of them were terrorists or terrorist sympathizers.

They can scratch up dozens of people to act like their relatives died and it's all Israel's fault. They can't find anyone mad at Hamas for the deaths of their family? 

That's weird: https://www.timesofisrael.com/second-son-of-hamas-leaves-terror-group-exposing-corruption-turkish-spy-ring/

Stop with your accusations of bigotry. You're the god-damned leftist. 

Quote

You honestly believe that a news editor should be spiking a story about Palestinian victims because of the alleged and misleading conduct of the Ottoman Empire?

That's retarded. I don't know where you get your stupid ideas from.

Quote

And by the way Jews were better treated by the Ottomans than by European Christians and Jews actually fled TO the Ottoman Empire from Christian persecution in Europe

They have fled almost everywhere, including the Ottoman empire.

Quote

“Even though Jews were placed under special restrictions in the Ottoman Empire, there was still a vibrant Jewish culture in certain regions of the Empire. This was especially true for the Sephardic Jews, who had large amounts of political and cultural influence in the Ottoman Empire….The Ottoman Empire became a safe haven for Jews from the Iberian Peninsula fleeing persecution (see Alhambra Decree). By the end of the 16th century, the Ottoman Empire had the largest Jewish population in the world”

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire#:~:text=The Ottoman Empire became a,s combined figure of 75%2C000.

You must have missed the anti-Semitism part of that article. 

• AntisemitismEdit

• See also: Antisemitism in Islam, Islamic–Jewish relations, and Antisemitism in the Arab world
• There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828.^[40] 
• There was a massacre of Jews in Barfurush in 1867.^[40]
•  "whereas in former times, in the Ottoman State, the communities were ranked, with the Muslims first, then the Greeks, then the Armenians, then the Jews, now all of them were put on the same level. Some Greeks objected to this, saying: 'The government has put us together with the Jews. We were content with the supremacy of Islam.'"^[41]
• Throughout the 1860s, the Jews of Libya were subjected to what Gilbert calls punitive taxation.
• In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fezin Morocco.
• In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis, and an Arab mob looted Jewish homes and stores, and burned synagogues, on Jerba Island.
• In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco; elsewhere in Morocco, Jews were attacked and killed in the streets in broad daylight.
• In 1891, the leading Muslims in Jerusalem asked the Ottoman authorities in Constantinople to prohibit the entry of Jews arriving from Russia.
• In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania.^[38]
• An important instance of anti-Semitism around this time was the Damascus affair, in which many Jews in Damascus (which was then under the leadership of Muhammad Ali of Egypt) were arrested after being accused of murdering the Christian Father Thomas and his servant in an instance of blood libel. While the authorities under Sharif Pasha, Egyptian governor of Damascus, tortured the accused until they confessed to the crime, and killed two Jews who refused to confess, prominent European Jews such as Adolphe Crémieuxdemanded the release of the condemned.^[42]
• Benny Morris writes that one symbol of Jewish degradation was the phenomenon of stone-throwing at Jews by Muslim children. Morris quotes a 19th-century traveler:

• I have seen a little fellow of six years old, with a troop of fat toddlers of only three and four, teaching [them] to throw stones at a Jew, and one little urchin would, with the greatest coolness, waddle up to the man and literally spit upon his Jewish gaberdine. To all this the Jew is obliged to submit; it would be more than his life was worth to offer to strike a Mohammedan.^[43]

• The overwhelming majority of the Ottoman Jews lived in the European-provinces of the Empire. As the empire lost control over its European provinces in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, these Jewish communities found themselves under Christian rule. The Bosnian Jews for example came under Austro-Hungarian rule after the occupation of the region in 1878. The independence of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia further lowered the number of Jews within the borders of the Ottoman Empire.

So, during all those centuries, the Jews lives as 4th-class citizens, after Muslims, Greeks and Armenians. Then there were the slaughters, but just remember that the slaughters are the very peak of bigotry. There would have been other prolonged periods of life being extremely crappy, just without the slaughtering. 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The Palestinian Authority officially recognized Israel’s right to exist in 1993 so apparently you’re hard of hearing.  Meanwhile Israel still refuses to recognize Palestine’s right to exist and continues to build illegal settlements in Occupied Territories.

1) Hamas's stated goal is 'river to the sea'. 

2) Lots of people have bargained in bad faith over the years. "Not one inch past Germany". 

Quote

Lies

You could have just written that one thing and spared yourself ten minutes of typing. We already know that everything you type is lies. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

The Palestinian Authority officially recognized Israel’s right to exist in 1993 so apparently you’re hard of hearing.  Meanwhile Israel still refuses to recognize Palestine’s right to exist and continues to build illegal settlements in Occupied Territories.

The first part is not true. The government in Gaza has not recognized Israel's existence. That was why those atrocities on Oct. 7 were committed. A good number of Palestinians have not either. Israel exists and will exist and no one can disturb that. Not a bunch of desert born violent religious retards..

The second part is very true.

Edited October 28, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[Michael Hardner]

While it's disheartening to read posts like that, it's good to see them dismantled so handily by The Beaver..

[myata]

There's a good solution to this eternal dilemma: West recognizes Israel and Palestine in the internationally agreed borders of 1967 or something. It will guarantee security of Israel only within these borders, and never unconditionally whatever the next hawkish Israeli government chooses to desire next. Hamas is declared a terrorist organization that is only a pronouncement of a fact. Internationally recognized framework for peace is mutual recognition and renouncement of violence within the recognized borders, possibly with mutually agreed modifications.

Edited October 28, 2023 by myata

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

I believe that when people say "I have 34 family members and friends who died" that's BS.

It's also crap to talk about this with no context whatsoever. It's almost a certainty that if she did know that many people, some of them were terrorists or terrorist sympathizers.

They can scratch up dozens of people to act like their relatives died and it's all Israel's fault. They can't find anyone mad at Hamas for the deaths of their family? 

That's weird: https://www.timesofisrael.com/second-son-of-hamas-leaves-terror-group-exposing-corruption-turkish-spy-ring/

Stop with your accusations of bigotry. You're the god-damned leftist. 

That's retarded. I don't know where you get your stupid ideas from.

They have fled almost everywhere, including the Ottoman empire.

You must have missed the anti-Semitism part of that article. 

• AntisemitismEdit

• See also: Antisemitism in Islam, Islamic–Jewish relations, and Antisemitism in the Arab world
• There was a massacre of Jews in Baghdad in 1828.^[40] 
• There was a massacre of Jews in Barfurush in 1867.^[40]
•  "whereas in former times, in the Ottoman State, the communities were ranked, with the Muslims first, then the Greeks, then the Armenians, then the Jews, now all of them were put on the same level. Some Greeks objected to this, saying: 'The government has put us together with the Jews. We were content with the supremacy of Islam.'"^[41]
• Throughout the 1860s, the Jews of Libya were subjected to what Gilbert calls punitive taxation.
• In 1864, around 500 Jews were killed in Marrakech and Fezin Morocco.
• In 1869, 18 Jews were killed in Tunis, and an Arab mob looted Jewish homes and stores, and burned synagogues, on Jerba Island.
• In 1875, 20 Jews were killed by a mob in Demnat, Morocco; elsewhere in Morocco, Jews were attacked and killed in the streets in broad daylight.
• In 1891, the leading Muslims in Jerusalem asked the Ottoman authorities in Constantinople to prohibit the entry of Jews arriving from Russia.
• In 1897, synagogues were ransacked and Jews were murdered in Tripolitania.^[38]
• An important instance of anti-Semitism around this time was the Damascus affair, in which many Jews in Damascus (which was then under the leadership of Muhammad Ali of Egypt) were arrested after being accused of murdering the Christian Father Thomas and his servant in an instance of blood libel. While the authorities under Sharif Pasha, Egyptian governor of Damascus, tortured the accused until they confessed to the crime, and killed two Jews who refused to confess, prominent European Jews such as Adolphe Crémieuxdemanded the release of the condemned.^[42]
• Benny Morris writes that one symbol of Jewish degradation was the phenomenon of stone-throwing at Jews by Muslim children. Morris quotes a 19th-century traveler:

• I have seen a little fellow of six years old, with a troop of fat toddlers of only three and four, teaching [them] to throw stones at a Jew, and one little urchin would, with the greatest coolness, waddle up to the man and literally spit upon his Jewish gaberdine. To all this the Jew is obliged to submit; it would be more than his life was worth to offer to strike a Mohammedan.^[43]

• The overwhelming majority of the Ottoman Jews lived in the European-provinces of the Empire. As the empire lost control over its European provinces in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, these Jewish communities found themselves under Christian rule. The Bosnian Jews for example came under Austro-Hungarian rule after the occupation of the region in 1878. The independence of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia further lowered the number of Jews within the borders of the Ottoman Empire.

So, during all those centuries, the Jews lives as 4th-class citizens, after Muslims, Greeks and Armenians. Then there were the slaughters, but just remember that the slaughters are the very peak of bigotry. There would have been other prolonged periods of life being extremely crappy, just without the slaughtering. 

I never claimed the Ottoman Empire had 21st century values but compared to centuries-long pervasive massacres, purges and pogroms in Christian Europe, the Ottoman Empire even with its pervasive mistreatment and periodic violence must have seemed like paradise in comparison , especially those Jews who were able to hold substantial political and economic power, something that was never allowed in Europe. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by BeaverFever

[WestCanMan]

4 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

I never claimed the Ottoman Empire had 21st century values but compared to centuries-long pervasive massacres, purges and pogroms in Christian Europe, the Ottoman Empire even with its pervasive mistreatment and periodic violence must have seemed like paradise in comparison , especially those Jews who were able to hold substantial political and economic power, something that was never allowed in Europe. 

They were 4th-class citizens in the Ottoman empire and they were occasionally massacred. Are you saying they should throw a "Thanks for letting some of us survive, even though we had to grovel" party? 

In the periods between "4th-class citizens" and "getting massacred" there was a whole lot of shit and abuse. 

And keep in mind, the muslims haven't given them access to Temple Mount in 1,000 years... How 'kind' is that? The Ottomans didn't invent that law, but they kept it going for about 500 years. 

Yeah, I'm passing judgement on them bigtime. All of them, then and now. Call me crazy. 

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

I believe that when people say "I have 34 family members and friends who died" that's BS.

Only because that’s what you want to believe. Gaza is one of the smallest and most densely populated jurisdictions on earth. I’m sure if an airforce bombed the neighbourhood where you and your extended family members all lived and worked - not to mention your friends and coworkers and their extended families - with death tolls in the thousands you would know a couple dozen of the victims as well. 
 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

That's retarded. I don't know where you get your stupid ideas from.

I get them from you, I simply show you how stupid they are

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

1) Hamas's stated goal is 'river to the sea'. 

Hamas is not synonymous with the Palestinian people. Hamas is a terrorist organization and deserves to be wiped out. 
 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

2) Lots of people have bargained in bad faith over the years. "Not one inch past Germany". 

The secular Palestinian Authority didn’t bargain in bad faith. After PA and Israel reached a peace deal in Oslo and PA unilaterally recognized Israel, what happened?  Israeli hardliners assassinated their PM for making the deal and immediately commenced aggression and provocation of Palestinians, such as accelerating settlements in occupied territories, etc. and that hardline policy continues to this day. 

[WestCanMan]

2 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Only because that’s what you want to believe. Gaza is one of the smallest and most densely populated jurisdictions on earth. I’m sure if an airforce bombed the neighbourhood where you and your extended family members all lived and worked - not to mention your friends and coworkers and their extended families - with death tolls in the thousands you would know a couple dozen of the victims as well. 

Still didn't happen.

If she loved that many people that much in that small area then why didn't she stay there? And none of them were terrorists, or terrorist sympathizers?

Not buyin' it. 

You can. You fall for everything.

Quote

I get them from you, I simply show you how stupid they are

You don't get any stupid ideas from me, you get them from CNN. 

What you said to me was just a straw man argument of your own.

Quote

Hamas is not synonymous with the Palestinian people. Hamas is a terrorist organization and deserves to be wiped out. 

The Palestinians should get rid of them then. I don't tolerate terrorists. Do you? 

Well, I guess you tolerate BLM and Antifa, so yeah, don't bother answering that one.

[ironstone]

4 hours ago, Canadian_Cavalier said:

I'm getting really sick of the Israeli narrative that you're antisemitic if you don't tow the line 100% of the time for them. Israel is not entitled to the allegiance of other countries, including ours. Israel has never fought side-by-side in any war with us.

Israel has kind of had it's hands full defending itself from openly hostile neighbors for decades since it's inception.

When would they have had the time to fight in other wars?

The CBC is not alone in its biased coverage of this latest conflict.

7 Times Israel Coverage Proved You Don't Hate The Media Enough (thefederalist.com)

[BeaverFever]

3 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

The first part is not true. The government in Gaza has not recognized Israel's existence. That was why those atrocities on Oct. 7 were committed. A good number of Palestinians have not either. Israel exists and will exist and no one can disturb that. Not a bunch of desert born violent religious retards..

In 1993 when PA recognized Israel it was the “government” in Gaza. Hamas only seized power there more than a decade later in 2007, long after relations had seriously deteriorated. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by BeaverFever

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

If she loved that many people that much in that small area then why didn't she stay there?

In a war zone. Where dozens of people she knew already died.  Seriously that is a dumb question. 
 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

And none of them were terrorists, or terrorist sympathizers?

Why would that matter if they are “sympathizers?”  Surely you’re not saying CBC should have done in-depth background checks on each of the 34 people killed and spiked the story if any of them were “sympathizers”?  You don’t wonder how many Israeli victims might have had extreme anti-Palestinian views or are “sympathizers” of the settler militias that terrorize Palestinians in the West Bank  

 

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

You fall for everything.

Says the “Jewish Nazi”, “Biolabs”, “stolen 2020 election” and covid conspiracy nut. I believe you also once believed Obama was a secret Kenyan too, didn’t you?

 

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

The Palestinians should get rid of them then. I don't tolerate terrorists. Do you? 

Easier said than done especially when you have no resources of your own. Hamas is in power. It’s called “in power” for a reason. 
 

 

[BeaverFever]

2 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

They were 4th-class citizens in the Ottoman empire and they were occasionally massacred. Are you saying they should throw a "Thanks for letting some of us survive, even though we had to grovel" party? 

In the periods between "4th-class citizens" and "getting massacred" there was a whole lot of shit and abuse. 

And keep in mind, the muslims haven't given them access to Temple Mount in 1,000 years... How 'kind' is that? The Ottomans didn't invent that law, but they kept it going for about 500 years. 

Yeah, I'm passing judgement on them bigtime. All of them, then and now. Call me crazy. 

No I’m just challenging the usual “evil Muslim” narrative. Up until the last century or so Jews usually had it better in the Muslim world than in the Christian world. That is all. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

15 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

In 1993 when PA recognized Israel it was the “government” in Gaza. Hamas only seized power there more than a decade later in 2007, long after relations had seriously deteriorated. 

So the new government cancelled what was recognized before. 

[myata]

There may be a better time and place to talk about this issue but it would have been in the past (long one). The last and possibly the first too genuine attempt from Israel to achieve a just and lasting peace ended with assassination of Rabin. Israelis are repeatedly electing parties that show little interests in stopping the encroaching annexation.

Israel routinely "annexed" lands in the occupied territories including Jerusalem. Under international law one cannot do that. This what Putin has done in Ukraine and nobody recognizes that, with the only difference that Ukraine is a member state of the UN and Palestine, not.

These are the facts. The political establishment in Israel does not want lasting two-state solution; and has factually done everything to undermine every opportunity and hope of it. This in no way trivializes or exonerates obvious crimes against humanity committed by Palestinian  terrorists. But absolutely this is a factual and objective background and framework of the current situation. Right-wing Israeli nationalists and Palestinian extremists exist and thrive in a symbiosis of mutual hate. They need each other and there's one thing they hate more than the other: a hope of just and lasting settlement.

The democracies of the West should recognize that and get off the fence of moral ambiguity. Terrorism is not acceptable and neither is encroaching occupation. Terrorism needs to be stopped, but states cannot be rewarded, continuously and unconditionally for repeated violations of the international law. It will only extend the hatred into the perpetuity. And in that case, there cannot be any good surprises.

[WestCanMan]

18 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

In a war zone. Where dozens of people she knew already died.  Seriously that is a dumb question. 

It wasn't a war zone when she left. 

Quote

Why would that matter if they are “sympathizers?”  

Because when people support and sympathize for terrorists, they're wishing horrible deaths on innocent civilians, dummy.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical for her to bemoan the loss of people who wanted to see women and children killed?

Quote

Says the “Jewish Nazi”, “Biolabs”, “stolen 2020 election” and covid conspiracy nut. I believe you also once believed Obama was a secret Kenyan too, didn’t you?

Gawd you're stupid. 

FYI it takes me ten minutes to write down all of the ridiculous CNN narratives that you follwed, and I don't say that Jews are Nazis, I've never made so much as even a typo regarding biolabs, of course the Dems cheated on the 2020 election because they always cheat but you'd be correct to say they haven't been caught, and literally everything I said about covid is true.  Try again, dummy.

Quote

Easier said than done especially when you have no resources of your own. Hamas is in power. It’s called “in power” for a reason. 

How is it possible for a society full of good people to be so throughly dominated by just a few who are evil? 

[WestCanMan]

18 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

No I’m just challenging the usual “evil Muslim” narrative. Up until the last century or so Jews usually had it better in the Muslim world than in the Christian world. That is all. 

The narrative goes like this:

1) It's nothing but hypocrisy and religious bigotry to take the stance that Israel has no right to exist because of what happened in 1948 plus all the evil things that the Israelis did since then. 

2) Anyone who uses Israel's mere existence and the sum of all their evil as a reason for utterly destroying them has to be far more offended by the existence of Pakistan and their two genocides in the millions. 

3) Almost the entire muslim world feels that way about Israel, and none of them have a beef with Pakistan. 

[suds]

On 10/28/2023 at 3:11 PM, BeaverFever said:

The Palestinian Authority officially recognized Israel’s right to exist in 1993 so apparently you’re hard of hearing.  Meanwhile Israel still refuses to recognize Palestine’s right to exist and continues to build illegal settlements in Occupied Territories.

In my opinion there's a fundamental difference between 'Israel's right to exist' and 'Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state'.  Has the Palestinian Authority ever recognized Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state? I don't believe it has. On one hand, the Balfour Declaration (1917) recommends a vague use of the term 'Jewish homeland'. But the UN resolution 181 (1947) uses the terms 'Arab state' and 'Jewish state' in its description of the partition of British Palestine. I would have to believe that any 'Jewish state' (or 'Arab state') would require at least a majority of Jews or Arabs to function as such. Since demographics do matter (more so for the Jewish state) you can see where the 'right of return' becomes such a concern.

 

 

Edited October 29, 2023 by suds

[suds]

On 10/28/2023 at 3:32 PM, Canadian_Cavalier said:

I'm getting really sick of the Israeli narrative that you're antisemitic if you don't tow the line 100% of the time for them. Israel is not entitled to the allegiance of other countries, including ours. Israel has never fought side-by-side in any war with us.

Interesting. Since Israel was only created in 1948

 

3 hours ago, myata said:

There may be a better time and place to talk about this issue but it would have been in the past (long one). The last and possibly the first too genuine attempt from Israel to achieve a just and lasting peace ended with assassination of Rabin. Israelis are repeatedly electing parties that show little interests in stopping the encroaching annexation.

Israel routinely "annexed" lands in the occupied territories including Jerusalem. Under international law one cannot do that. This what Putin has done in Ukraine and nobody recognizes that, with the only difference that Ukraine is a member state of the UN and Palestine, not.

These are the facts. The political establishment in Israel does not want lasting two-state solution; and has factually done everything to undermine every opportunity and hope of it. This in no way trivializes or exonerates obvious crimes against humanity committed by Palestinian  terrorists. But absolutely this is a factual and objective background and framework of the current situation. Right-wing Israeli nationalists and Palestinian extremists exist and thrive in a symbiosis of mutual hate. They need each other and there's one thing they hate more than the other: a hope of just and lasting settlement.

The democracies of the West should recognize that and get off the fence of moral ambiguity. Terrorism is not acceptable and neither is encroaching occupation. Terrorism needs to be stopped, but states cannot be rewarded, continuously and unconditionally for repeated violations of the international law. It will only extend the hatred into the perpetuity. And in that case, there cannot be any good surprises.

I agree! But what we really want to know is ....  what's your solution that would be acceptable to the majority of Israelis and Palestinians??  We know how Gaza turned out after the Israelis voluntarily left and then got sucker punched when Hamas took control. What's to stop the same from happening if they voluntarily left the West Bank? Are Palestinians that different between Gaza and the West Bank? What's to stop a civil war in the West Bank from taking place and having Hamas take control? At the very least, Israel should want their security guaranteed and they don't put much trust in the UN to any large degree.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Israel’s willingness to allow a Palestinian state is an allegation not currently being tested. People like Netanyahu may make ambiguous noises about it in English but have spent their political careers making sure it can never happen. ‘From the river to the sea’ is how the maniacs of Hamas express their intentions; by contrast, ‘From the sea to Area C’ is not an outrageous denial of the possibility of a Palestinian state but a simple description of the current situation where Israel is quietly increasing its control of West Bank territory every day. 

Edited October 29, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[myata]

1 minute ago, suds said:

What's to stop the same from happening if they voluntarily left the West Bank? Are Palestinians that different between Gaza and the West Bank? What's to stop a civil war in the West Bank from taking place and having Hamas take control? At the very least, Israel should want their security guaranteed and they don't put much trust in the UN to any large degree.

When (and if) Israel and Palestine both have statehood with viable, mutually agreed and internationally recognized borders, the situation could not be worse than it is now. Any act of aggression would be clear and cause a strong response from the international community as it should. It would be a clear violation of the agreed settlement, no ambiguity.

The status quo is nothing like that. Gaza alone is not viable. West Bank is under occupation. Palestinian part of Jerusalem is being cut and annexed bite by bite. Referring to the status quo as a basis for future possibilities couldn't be fair and objective. Such a basis exists though: the two-state solution within internationally recognized borders.