Abolishing money would make us happy

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

What "things" would I be needing?  If my wooden cabin is built and I have enough food , clothes and wood for heating, there will be very few "things" I might need.

In general we are looking at A*B=C, where we want to reduce C to survive.   I was so far looking at reducing or bringing B down to zero, but we can also bring A down without making changes to B, if you know what I mean.  (which I know you do)

So build your cabin in the middle of nowhere, grow your own food and make your own clothes. Enjoy yourself trying to survive. Do you think all 8 billion people in the world could live like that?

[Gaétan]

13 hours ago, Aristides said:

 

Who makes the TV? How does it get there? Who makes all the components.

Workers

[Aristides]

2 hours ago, Gaétan said:

Workers

Workers work for companies who have invested tons of money in the infrastructure to build those TV's. How will you compensate those workers who might be on the other side of the world, ship them some of your potatoes? They would probably rather have rice. Potatoes aren't that big in Asia.

I can't believe we are having this ridiculous discussion. 

[Gaétan]

3 hours ago, Aristides said:

Workers work for companies who have invested tons of money in the infrastructure to build those TV's. How will you compensate those workers who might be on the other side of the world, ship them some of your potatoes? They would probably rather have rice. Potatoes aren't that big in Asia.

I can't believe we are having this ridiculous discussion. 

You are paid in american dollars or euros what you export and pay with the same money what you import.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Gaétan

[Aristides]

19 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

You are paid in american dollars or euros what you export and pay with the same money what you import.

So you do need money. You can't abolish it and still carry on trade at more than a neighbourhood level nor can you manufacture anything more than what you can make yourself.

The world you live in can't function without it.

Edited November 29, 2023 by Aristides

[Gaétan]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

So you do need money. You can't abolish it and still carry on trade at more than a neighbourhood level nor can you manufacture anything more than what you can make yourself.

The world you live in can't function without it.

You use money to trade with others countries but not inside yours.

[Aristides]

41 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

You use money to trade with others countries but not inside yours.

Of course you will have to use it to trade within your own country. You will need it to trade anywhere outside your own area.

 

[Gaétan]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Of course you will have to use it to trade within your own country. You will need it to trade anywhere outside your own area.

 

No

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Gaétan said:

No

Yes.

[Legato]

17 hours ago, Gaétan said:

You use money to trade with others countries but not inside yours.

So if I leave some turnips and take some money as a trade isn't that the method currently used?

[cougar]

On 11/27/2023 at 9:31 PM, Aristides said:

So build your cabin in the middle of nowhere, grow your own food and make your own clothes. Enjoy yourself trying to survive. Do you think all 8 billion people in the world could live like that?

Maybe not exactly like that, but thing need to wind down for all 8 billion, which by the way should go down to 3 billion or less.

 

And by the way our government is not going to let me live in my cabin in the wilderness - they will take it from under my feet and ask for taxes.

Edited December 2, 2023 by cougar

[Gaétan]

On 11/27/2023 at 4:42 PM, Michael Hardner said:

Civilization made the great leap forward by counting... are you actually against math ?

For what you seem to actually be addressing - people are also concerned with fairness and that's utterly normal.

I system of money is not fair. What is fair is voluntarily work and voluntarily take out what you need.

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Gaétan said:

I system of money is not fair. What is fair is voluntarily work and voluntarily take out what you need.

It can't be managed at scale.

There may be a way some day but you're talking about the end of work, essentially, centuries away.

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

It can't be managed at scale.

There may be a way some day but you're talking about the end of work, essentially, centuries away.

"Guess I didn't really think this through."

 

 

[Aristides]

16 hours ago, Gaétan said:

I system of money is not fair. What is fair is voluntarily work and voluntarily take out what you need.

Why should someone volunteer to work for you?

[Gaétan]

7 hours ago, Aristides said:

Why should someone volunteer to work for you?

Because it makes him feel happy and healthy:

Doing well by doing good. The relationship between formal volunteering and self-reported health and happiness - PubMed (nih.gov)

[Aristides]

16 minutes ago, Gaétan said:

Because it makes him feel happy and healthy:

Doing well by doing good. The relationship between formal volunteering and self-reported health and happiness - PubMed (nih.gov)

Volunteering isn't about expecting something in return. Why should they provide for your needs when you are perfectly capable of looking after them yourself?

[Gaétan]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:38 PM, Aristides said:

Volunteering isn't about expecting something in return. Why should they provide for your needs when you are perfectly capable of looking after them yourself?

Most people can clean up his toilet or home themself but they cannot provide everything they need themself as to make himself a cell phone.

[Aristides]

On 12/4/2023 at 8:42 PM, Gaétan said:

Most people can clean up his toilet or home themself but they cannot provide everything they need themself as to make himself a cell phone.

So why should anyone build you a cell phone? Why would anyone invest in the research,  technology and infrastructure to build it for you?

Edited December 7, 2023 by Aristides

[Gaétan]

18 hours ago, Aristides said:

So why should anyone build you a cell phone? Why would anyone invest in the research,  technology and infrastructure to build it for you?

Because it makes them feel happy and in good health for exemple, a lot of documentation on internet on that.

[Legato]

On 12/7/2023 at 4:26 PM, Gaétan said:

Because it makes them feel happy and in good health 

Okay you can come to my place, clear the snow in winter and mow the lawn in summer, then we will both feel good.

I will pay in kind. Two slaps round the head for poor snow clearance and four slaps for missing a part of the lawn.

How does that sound?

[Gaétan]

2 hours ago, Legato said:

Okay you can come to my place, clear the snow in winter and mow the lawn in summer, then we will both feel good.

I will pay in kind. Two slaps round the head for poor snow clearance and four slaps for missing a part of the lawn.

How does that sound?

You say that because you don't do voluntary work when you do so you are happy and in good mental and physical health

[Aristides]

On 12/8/2023 at 5:41 PM, Gaétan said:

You say that because you don't do voluntary work when you do so you are happy and in good mental and physical health

Voluntary work means you don't expect something in return. You do.

[Gaétan]

On 12/11/2023 at 8:40 PM, Aristides said:

Voluntary work means you don't expect something in return. You do.

Voluntary work includes activities or responsibilities that you take on without obligation or payment

WORK IS VOLUNTARILY WITHOUT OBLIGATION OF PAYMENT:

This is the way it works, you work voluntarily and you take what is given without obligation

I provide goods or services without being paid and get what is given by others volunteers without paying. Like this:

 

Luke 10⁴ Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.

⁵ “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ ⁶ If someone who promotes peace is there, your peace will rest on them; if not, it will return to you. ⁷ Stay there, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages

Edited December 30, 2023 by Gaétan

[cannuck]

On 12/2/2023 at 10:06 PM, Gaétan said:

I system of money is not fair. What is fair is voluntarily work and voluntarily take out what you need.

What (or more to the point one of many things) you seem not to understand is that people are involved.   They do not behave in some great, even, reasonable and fair way, they live only by four things:   sex, pride, greed and fear.  Take away the mechanism of measuring worth and exchange (i.e. monetary system) and you would have chaos and collapse where exactly as today, greed rules except now free rain for fear to be the tool to expedite satiating sex and greed.

What we need to eliminate is not money - but to control and reward only productive work with value.  SIMPLE thing to fix:  eliminate speculative gain.   Our problem is not with money, it is with re-distribution of wealth without adding value.   Again, it is not "money" per se that got us into this mess - it is giving control of everything that values money to a very small portion of the population (banks and finance).