cannuck Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 (edited) 22 hours ago, Gaétan said: I wait that you put link to back your opinion, if you get rid of money what would be the use of token or money? Why would you pay for something free with token? I guess it is time to introduce to you something discovered many thousands of years ago: market economies. If you say to your volunteer furniture maker: " I want a table", since he volunteered to be a furniture maker he may - or may not - make you a table. Since we have placed no value on his table and no value on his work you will get whatever he wants or he can produce. When you get your table and it falls apart you are going to be pissed when you find out he never met anyone's standards as a qualified furniture maker - or the materials his volunteer material supplier gave him since they had no value are nothing but a crapshoot. The way market economies evolved is realizing what value consumers place on the work of suppliers - and that value is what is rewarded by how many tokens of exchange are offered. Market economies (that is PRODUCTIVE market economies for actual goods and services, not Casino Capitalist markets that are no more than a gamble on a false valuation of a token the already exists). Let me once again take you back to reality. I cite Communist economies because in many, things are just assigned to you based on what the ruling party volunteers to give to you. In '70s Moscow, my Uncle was given a B&W TV for the apartment given to him so his family could enjoy life in Russia. Made them most popular family on the block. When it stopped working, he called the TV shop (no money exchanged hands)and the repairman volunteered to come when it suited him, so my Aunt had to stay home from her job at US Embassy to let him in. Guy turned it on and off, plugged in and out, smacked it with palm of his hand for a few minutes and picture with sound returned. Aunt was happy and worker returned to his office. A few weeks later, it failed again so this time my Uncle stayed home from his job at Canadian Embassy to deal with the "free"service volunteered by the state. Repairman showed up, but my Uncle asked him where his tool bag and spare parts were? He replied that they were at the shop and repeated the plug, switch, slap and curse routine my Aunt witnessed. No go. Uncle asked him why he didn't bring tools to fix, so was he going to take it back to his shop. Guy answered "no, you have to put in a request for a new one". Unc asked him why do they not fix it? He says "Not possible, no spare parts". Then he asked how long and was told "maybe a year or two". THAT was a literal example of a genuinely cashless society. If you don't have a means of exchange and a marketplace ha can express the value - that means you need tokens of value - it simply doesn't work. Worth noting: that in time Russia did use tokens of exchange (there WAS a ruble economy, but not all items changed ownership or services granted with money) but all embassy people were expected when travelling to Western world to bring back blue jeans, ball point pens, Bic lighters, etc. and sell them to the black market. The tokens of exchange? US Greenbacks - since the Russian Ruble tokens represented a value that the state volunteered it to be thus no market determind but STATE determined value. The genuine test of that value was the underground economy that used the ultimate token of value placed by markets globally - the US Dollar. Edited February 17 by cannuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaétan Posted February 17 Author Report Share Posted February 17 1 hour ago, cannuck said: I guess it is time to introduce to you something discovered many thousands of years ago: market economies. If you say to your volunteer furniture maker: " I want a table", since he volunteered to be a furniture maker he may - or may not - make you a table. Since we have placed no value on his table and no value on his work you will get whatever he wants or he can produce. When you get your table and it falls apart you are going to be pissed when you find out he never met anyone's standards as a qualified furniture maker - or the materials his volunteer material supplier gave him since they had no value are nothing but a crapshoot. The way market economies evolved is realizing what value consumers place on the work of suppliers - and that value is what is rewarded by how many tokens of exchange are offered. Market economies (that is PRODUCTIVE market economies for actual goods and services, not Casino Capitalist markets that are no more than a gamble on a false valuation of a token the already exists). Let me once again take you back to reality. I cite Communist economies because in many, things are just assigned to you based on what the ruling party volunteers to give to you. In '70s Moscow, my Uncle was given a B&W TV for the apartment given to him so his family could enjoy life in Russia. Made them most popular family on the block. When it stopped working, he called the TV shop (no money exchanged hands)and the repairman volunteered to come when it suited him, so my Aunt had to stay home from her job at US Embassy to let him in. Guy turned it on and off, plugged in and out, smacked it with palm of his hand for a few minutes and picture with sound returned. Aunt was happy and worker returned to his office. A few weeks later, it failed again so this time my Uncle stayed home from his job at Canadian Embassy to deal with the "free"service volunteered by the state. Repairman showed up, but my Uncle asked him where his tool bag and spare parts were? He replied that they were at the shop and repeated the plug, switch, slap and curse routine my Aunt witnessed. No go. Uncle asked him why he didn't bring tools to fix, so was he going to take it back to his shop. Guy answered "no, you have to put in a request for a new one". Unc asked him why do they not fix it? He says "Not possible, no spare parts". Then he asked how long and was told "maybe a year or two". THAT was a literal example of a genuinely cashless society. If you don't have a means of exchange and a marketplace ha can express the value - that means you need tokens of value - it simply doesn't work. Worth noting: that in time Russia did use tokens of exchange (there WAS a ruble economy, but not all items changed ownership or services granted with money) but all embassy people were expected when travelling to Western world to bring back blue jeans, ball point pens, Bic lighters, etc. and sell them to the black market. The tokens of exchange? US Greenbacks - since the Russian Ruble tokens represented a value that the state volunteered it to be thus no market determind but STATE determined value. The genuine test of that value was the underground economy that used the ultimate token of value placed by markets globally - the US Dollar. What you talk about is money economy and i told you it didn't work and you confirmed that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannuck Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 (edited) On 2/17/2024 at 9:31 AM, Gaétan said: What you talk about is money economy and i told you it didn't work and you confirmed that. Doesn't work compared with WHAT?????? What I showed you was that when you took tokens of exchange out of an economy and replaced it with "volunatary" values it immediately had to revert to having tokens of exchange to work. Believe me when I tell you that as I sit here doing my 2023 taxes I really wish there was no such thing as money - since the halfwits we have elected have spent a few trillion dollars that I seem to be volunteering to pay out. The tokens I chose to hold onto 4 years ago are now able to purchase less than 1/2 of what I could get 2019. Edited February 18 by cannuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaétan Posted February 20 Author Report Share Posted February 20 On 2/18/2024 at 5:00 PM, cannuck said: Doesn't work compared with WHAT?????? What I showed you was that when you took tokens of exchange out of an economy and replaced it with "volunatary" values it immediately had to revert to having tokens of exchange to work. Believe me when I tell you that as I sit here doing my 2023 taxes I really wish there was no such thing as money - since the halfwits we have elected have spent a few trillion dollars that I seem to be volunteering to pay out. The tokens I chose to hold onto 4 years ago are now able to purchase less than 1/2 of what I could get 2019. In my system the voluntary values have no value even gold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannuck Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 On 2/19/2024 at 9:03 PM, Gaétan said: In my system the voluntary values have no value even gold. Then you will be forever alone in your system 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaétan Posted February 24 Author Report Share Posted February 24 (edited) 40 minutes ago, cannuck said: Then you will be forever alone in your system Why? What is the price you want to pay for something? Zero dollar, then it worth nothing. If you see a product at 10$ and the same product beside it at 0$ a normal person will take the product at 0$, then it worth nothing according to every body but stupid people Edited February 24 by Gaétan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannuck Posted February 24 Report Share Posted February 24 Just now, Gaétan said: Why? What is the price you want to pay for something? Zero dollar, then it worth nothing. That's where you have it very wrong. I want to pay a fair market value as I value the resources and work that went into producing something. If I continue to reward better design, better quality, better management with a premium I will be doing my tiny little bit within a market economy to reward better things with full expectation for those better things to remain available. I am not going to throw my family into a single engine airplane and head off into an Arctic night counting on some volunteer's design, construction, oversight and maintenance of airframe, engine, prop and avionics. I want to have paid a premium to get premium product and performance in hopes of getting to the other end of the trip alive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaétan Posted February 24 Author Report Share Posted February 24 2 minutes ago, cannuck said: That's where you have it very wrong. I want to pay a fair market value as I value the resources and work that went into producing something. If I continue to reward better design, better quality, better management with a premium I will be doing my tiny little bit within a market economy to reward better things with full expectation for those better things to remain available. I am not going to throw my family into a single engine airplane and head off into an Arctic night counting on some volunteer's design, construction, oversight and maintenance of airframe, engine, prop and avionics. I want to have paid a premium to get premium product and performance in hopes of getting to the other end of the trip alive. This is not the truth. If you need a product at 10$ and the same product beside it at 0$ a normal person will take the product at 0$, then it worth nothing according to every body but stupid people. You have to be rightous, as you don't want to pay, then your work worth nothing. If you pay it is because you have to not because you wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted February 26 Report Share Posted February 26 The $0 product doesn't exist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaétan Posted February 27 Author Report Share Posted February 27 On 2/26/2024 at 1:38 AM, Moonbox said: The $0 product doesn't exist. So we live in a depraved world, don't we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted March 17 Report Share Posted March 17 On 2/24/2024 at 3:47 PM, Gaétan said: What is the price you want to pay for something? Good luck with that approach buying your next car. Mind you, you would make the police job easy when taking one for what you feel it was worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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