Should Hamas support rallies in Canada be stopped?

[WestCanMan]

17 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

@Army Guy I will do the research you suggested another time when I have more time but before I have this question for you:

If after the second world war the Jews from Europe had come to Canada instead of Palestine and had taken over Canada and declared a Jewish state, would you have accepted that or would you have fought back?

1) Stop lying.... Those Jews weren't all from Europe.

A lot of them had parents who were born in ME countries, and were just chased away during massacres that occurred in the 1800s in the Ottoman empire, or they were born in the ME themselves and were chased out when the countries that they lived in got chummy with the Nazis in the early '40s.

Do you honestly think that all the Jews who lived abroad just had no desire at all to live in the area of their ancestral homeland? Do you think that they didn't want to be close to all of their holiest sites? (Even though islamic religious bigotry prevented them visiting some of them)

Why do you think they stayed away from Palestine? Do you think that maybe it wasn't the Kumbaya-fest that you are pretending it was?

2) You never cared about what happened to millions of Sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan in 1947, so why do you care about the Palestinians? Only 6k Palestinians were killed so far, and that's after they slaughtered 1,200 Jewish civilians. 5M Sikhs and Hindus were killed... "Ho-hum." 

C2015: "Chuck the people of lesser Gods into a hole and forget about them, I'm still cool with Pakistan despite their lust for genocide."

Edited October 30, 2023 by WestCanMan

[herbie]

"Collateral damage" isn't a war crime, but hiding your headquarters or ammunition depot under a daycare centre or hospital definitely should be.
A lot of dupes fall for the idea hiding behind your own civilians like chickenshits is fair game.

[WestCanMan]

10 minutes ago, herbie said:

"Collateral damage" isn't a war crime, but hiding your headquarters or ammunition depot under a daycare centre or hospital definitely should be.

Storing weapons, ammo, and soldiers in a hospital isn't allowed, but these guys already chopped up/burned alive civilians and fired 7,000+ bombs at civilian targets. 

It's like arresting a murderer and charging him with a common assault at the same time. 

[CdnFox]

10 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Storing weapons, ammo, and soldiers in a hospital isn't allowed, but these guys already chopped up/burned alive civilians and fired 7,000+ bombs at civilian targets. 

It's like arresting a murderer and charging him with a common assault at the same time. 

The thing is, people had to know this was happening. And they let them build them there anyway.

It's like they're happy to die if it gives hamas a bargaining chip.

[SpankyMcFarland]

18 hours ago, CdnFox said:

I was "fine" with it all along if it's necessary to strike military targets and there's no other way. I've been pretty clear about that.  Get between israel and hamas and you're going to get killed, there's no other way. If you can avoid it great but if you can't, you have to do what you have to do in order to defend your people.

What i'm not fine with is deliberately targeting civvies for the sake of it. Which is what hamas does.

It's pretty telling that you can't see the problem with targeting civvies deliberately.

But there is really no mechanism to determine whether the Israelis killed civilians deliberately or otherwise. If nobody from the IDF leaks it then how will we ever know what they were aiming at? 

Edited October 30, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

40 minutes ago, herbie said:

"Collateral damage" isn't a war crime, but hiding your headquarters or ammunition depot under a daycare centre or hospital definitely should be.
 

Collateral damage is an elastic concept favoured by countries with large air forces. Our perception of it would change markedly if it ever darkened our door. 

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Collateral damage is an elastic concept favoured by countries with large air forces. Our perception of it would change markedly if it ever darkened our door. 

I assume you're not trying to suggest that civvie casualties didn't occur before the advent of air power

 In fact it's been a major issue since wars began.  And it distinguishes berween when a country kills civvies by accident (or unavoidably) or intent as a primary target. 

 And i doubt we'd change our tune with a war. We'd just realize war is really really bad.

War means civvie casualties as well as civvie refugees and suffering.  Has since the first siege. 

[CdnFox]

19 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

But there is really no mechanism to determine whether the Israelis killed civilians deliberately or otherwise. If nobody from the IDF leaks it then how will we ever know what they were aiming at? 

I believe they do share target data after the attack.  "This was a rocket site" or the like.  I mean there's no real way to confirm it and occasionally hamas claims otherwise as in the case of a recent incident near a hospital (not the hamas misfired rocket, a diffferent one ) where isreal says they were targeting a hamas facility and hamas says there was none there

But i believe isreal has responded with details about each attack they've been asked about. I could be wrong but i don't think so.

[SpankyMcFarland]

37 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I assume you're not trying to suggest that civvie casualties didn't occur before the advent of air power

No.

 

37 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

 In fact it's been a major issue since wars began.  And it distinguishes berween when a country kills civvies by accident (or unavoidably) or intent as a primary target. 

Does it really? Again we have to take that on trust a lot of the time. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

35 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I believe they do share target data after the attack.  "This was a rocket site" or the like.  I mean there's no real way to confirm it and occasionally hamas claims otherwise as in the case of a recent incident near a hospital (not the hamas misfired rocket, a diffferent one ) where isreal says they were targeting a hamas facility and hamas says there was none there

But i believe isreal has responded with details about each attack they've been asked about. I could be wrong but i don't think so.

I don’t they have responded with such details, certainly not always with useful details. Actually, I don’t think they could at the moment, given the thousands of targets. You’d have to concede that it’s really difficult to distinguish an honest mistake from a deliberate assassination of a journalist etc. under these circumstances. A much simpler matter was the killing of journalist Shireen Abu Akleh which the Israelis initially denied before claiming her death was accidental when the evidence became overwhelming. And, of course, it’s not an Israeli-specific thing either. All governments tend to do this. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

War and crime go together like love and marriage used to do in the Sinatra song. You can’t have one without the other. 

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

The thing is, people had to know this was happening. And they let them build them there anyway.

It's like they're happy to die if it gives hamas a bargaining chip.

They wouldn't have started this war if they weren't going to get some really juicy videos of Palestinian moms and dads crying. They can't generate enough hatred towards Jews to get a genocide started without that footage.

If the leaders of Hamas and Iran thought that the Israelis had the ability to exclusively and effectively target higher-ups in their ranks without harming civilians there would be everlasting peace.

Trump didn't kill 25,000 terrorists to calm the storm, he just killed Suleimani and a few terrorist leaders, then we heard crickets.  

[CdnFox]

55 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

No.

 

Does it really? Again we have to take that on trust a lot of the time. 

Well usually there's at least some evidence of a reason to believe that there was a military target involved. Or that the weapon was accidentally fired or malfunctioned as in the recent hamas missile incident. 

But sure - at least until after the war when inspectors can get in it's possible to hit a civvie target and claim it's military.

The best way to avoid that is not to violently brutally start a war with isreal in the first place,

52 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

War and crime go together like love and marriage used to do in the Sinatra song. You can’t have one without the other. 

Sure you can. It's all in how you define crime of course.  At the end of the day tho how many gov'ts have actually been haulted up for war crimes in history? not many,.

The fact is war is going to mean a  lot of death and destruction. It's best avoided.

[SpankyMcFarland]

5 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well usually there's at least some evidence of a reason to believe that there was a military target involved. Or that the weapon was accidentally fired or malfunctioned as in the recent hamas missile incident. 

But sure - at least until after the war when inspectors can get in it's possible to hit a civvie target and claim it's military.

The best way to avoid that is not to violently brutally start a war with isreal in the first place,

It just happens to be Israel this time but it’s a feature of all wars. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

8 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Trump didn't kill 25,000 terrorists to calm the storm, he just killed Suleimani and a few terrorist leaders, then we heard crickets.  

I’m not sure that was a wise precedent to set. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

34 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Sure you can. It's all in how you define crime of course.  At the end of the day tho how many gov'ts have actually been haulted up for war crimes in history? not many,.

Are you seriously claiming that no war crimes convictions means no war crimes? You’d make a good defence attorney. When it comes to war crimes, the Americans prefer to investigate themselves with predictably modest results. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by SpankyMcFarland

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

War should be a crime, but whom is going to police the world?

The law, eventually - jurisprudence.

[WestCanMan]

16 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I’m not sure that was a wise precedent to set. 

Most leaders prefer wars of attrition: our peons vs your peons.

Trump went for the head of the snake. He targeted leaders, which in turn made him a target.

Trump should run for president with Chuck Norris as his VP. 

[CITIZEN_2015]

Sad news from Israel. The 23 year old Israeli girl, Shani Louk who was kidnapped by Hamas terrorists was found today. She was beheaded by fu*king terrorists.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/23-year-old-shani-louk-beheaded-by-hamas-after-supernova-music-festival-israel-announces-196732997558

These barbaric muslim fanatics women-haters murderers sons of the bit*th bastards who commits the worst crimes under the name of God should be all eliminated from the face of this planet   .

Bless her soul.

 

Edited October 31, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[CITIZEN_2015]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

 

Where were the Jews going to go, they were refused entry to most countries, including Canada, the UN, was dividing up land through out the middle east,  it created many countries out of nothing, nobody has any problem with these states just Israel...why is that...The land originally allotted to Israel was Jordan, but Arabs refused, the Jews were allotted the smallest piece that was left. the Arabs at the time did not even give Palestinians a second thought here, and just threw them in with the Israelis, neither did the UN, had they solved the problem back then this would not be happening...everyone just assumes Israel is to blame here for everything...  

Where were the Jews going to go? A piece of Germany (the best area) instead of Palestine should have been taken and given to European Jewish refugees because Germany was responsible for their sufferings not Palestine.

[CITIZEN_2015]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

1) Stop lying.... Those Jews weren't all from Europe.

A lot of them had parents who were born in ME countries, and were just chased away during massacres that occurred in the 1800s in the Ottoman empire, or they were born in the ME themselves and were chased out when the countries that they lived in got chummy with the Nazis in the early '40s.

Do you honestly think that all the Jews who lived abroad just had no desire at all to live in the area of their ancestral homeland? Do you think that they didn't want to be close to all of their holiest sites? (Even though islamic religious bigotry prevented them visiting some of them)

Why do you think they stayed away from Palestine? Do you think that maybe it wasn't the Kumbaya-fest that you are pretending it was?

2) You never cared about what happened to millions of Sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan in 1947, so why do you care about the Palestinians? Only 6k Palestinians were killed so far, and that's after they slaughtered 1,200 Jewish civilians. 5M Sikhs and Hindus were killed... "Ho-hum." 

C2015: "Chuck the people of lesser Gods into a hole and forget about them, I'm still cool with Pakistan despite their lust for genocide."

It is a difficult situation and I am trying to be fair but constantly being accused of lying by two people on this forum. You and your buddy. Because for you too, even the slightest criticism of Israel is not tolerated and you two are trying to suppress their evil actions. Well I got news for you. The whole world now knows about it.

I also know nothing about Pakistan you keep mentioning. Likely I was a child when those events in Pakistan were happening otherwise I would have condemned them too.

Edited October 31, 2023 by CITIZEN_2015

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 10/29/2023 at 5:29 PM, blackbird said:

Canada was once part of the British Empire.   It was British North America.  Like every other empire in the world, it was conquered and colonized.  The British Empire existed around the world and the sun never set on some part of it.  Do you think the British asked permission to establish their empire?

Do you think the British should now pay compensation to all the former parts of the colonial empire they once had?  Why should Canadians be expected to pay compensation for living on land the natives now claim as their traditional territory which can extend for thousands of square kilometers according to some native groups or hereditary chiefs? 

I think you see the connection in your thinking to the middle east.  You think because some Palestinians are descendants of previous people who lived on the land, that somehow that now makes it their land and Israel should just surrender to these demands and get out. 

You seem to automatically believe if there is a perceived underdog, the stronger country or people should be blamed and made to pay for their wrong.  That is very simplistic thinking and is not how the world works.  It is a Marxist idea.  You want to somehow share everything in the world equally with everyone.  You must be thoroughly brainwashed with Marxism.  I would think you view the world through the same lens in your own backyard and area.  This is true Marxist ideology and is a key part of NDP Socialist thinking or ideology.  It is a false god.

That’s a fairly muscular form of Christianity you’re selling there. 

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

It just happens to be Israel this time but it’s a feature of all wars. 

Yes. Wars are bad.  Lots of people lose their lives and more have their lives and possessions destroyed.

Whenever it's practical to do so peace is a better option.  But that's not the option that was chosen this time.

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Are you seriously claiming that no war crimes convictions means no war crimes?

Are you seriously claiming that you know better than all the world's courts?

 Just because YOU decide YOU feel something is a 'crime" doesn't make it a crime.

[blackbird]

45 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

That’s a fairly muscular form of Christianity you’re selling there. 

No, I'm not saying it is part of Christianity with the exception of missionaries that went out to colonized countries.   Colonization is just how the world was settled by humans.

Colonization was good for some countries or areas of the world.  It did bring a lot of advanced civilization to North America for example.  For example it brought health care, medicine to aboriginals, education, and a new way of life.  It brought lots of technology and advancements.  

We think of Africa as a lot of countries, but actually I don't think countries even existed with the borders we have on maps today and separate governments.  I believe it was composed of various tribes.  

Wars between various groups and tribes was common throughout history.  

The British Empire brought a lot of good things to different parts of the world.  In some cases there was exploitation of natural resources and manufactured goods.  But I am not judging colonization as a good thing or bad thing.  That is just how the world was populated.

Edited October 31, 2023 by blackbird

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Where were the Jews going to go? A piece of Germany (the best area) instead of Palestine should have been taken and given to European Jewish refugees because Germany was responsible for their sufferings not Palestine.

Palestine was never a state, Palestinian people have always been under others control...just like the Jews, who have lived in the same area as Palestinians for thousands of years, could you please tell me what makes these lands belong to the Palestinians...Jews have a long history tied to the region as long as the Palestinians ..

Germany was nothing but a smoking hole in the ground, with millions of people homeless due to the war, are you suggesting that they add millions to those numbers...UN did look at Madagascar, but that did not pan out...

I guess your and the other are not going to do any research...which is fine, i provided a Israelis/ Palestine history for dummies all you got to do is watch maybe learn something who knows...