First Nations in northern Ontario seek over $100B to honour treaty promise

[ExFlyer]

On top of the more than $100 billion they have gotten over the past 300 years for doing nothing. We have to get over our absolutely foolish guilt over peoples that do nothing to help themselves.

First Nations in northern Ontario seek over $100B to honour treaty promise

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/first-nations-northern-ontario-seek-080000425.html

[OftenWrong]

Corruption and embezzlement among native leadership is well known. Follow the money.

[ExFlyer]

19 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Corruption and embezzlement among native leadership is well known. Follow the money.

Yeah, a lot more fun accusing and whining about Trudeau corruption and embezzlement than at our own people LOL (that have been doing it for many more decades than Trudeau).

[Canadian_Cavalier]

I'm curious as to why I, as a White man, am responsible for everything bad my ancestors did, but not for any of their accomplishments.

[ExFlyer]

8 minutes ago, Canadian_Cavalier said:

I'm curious as to why I, as a White man, am responsible for everything bad my ancestors did, but not for any of their accomplishments.

Because!!!

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

On top of the more than $100 billion they have gotten over the past 300 years...

You know, they'd probably settle for $50B ?

Anyway, it's fun to see people blow their tops on this stuff but sad that there's no way to actually resolve it.  In terms of the people, I would like someone to acknowledge that indeed they lost a lot.  If the people who flip the table over if you try to change the COLOUR of the poppy would at least do that, I would be happy.

[ExFlyer]

11 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

You know, they'd probably settle for $50B ?

Anyway, it's fun to see people blow their tops on this stuff but sad that there's no way to actually resolve it.  In terms of the people, I would like someone to acknowledge that indeed they lost a lot.  If the people who flip the table over if you try to change the COLOUR of the poppy would at least do that, I would be happy.

I do blow my top at this continual ransom aimed at our kindness.  These peoples lost the wars and were conquered. Our forefathers gave them status instead of wiping them out. We have been paying for them since then. They are the only peoples on earth that have not bettered themselves in modern society.

I have travelled all over this country, top to bottom, east to west and many remote places in between. I have seen their communities and the squalor they choose to live in. They do not help themselves and only complain we do not give them enough.

Give them a greenbelt of a million acres and say, go forth and live as your ancestors, no more money, or assistance. You want what you had, now you got it.

[Michael Hardner]

42 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

1. They are the only peoples on earth that have not bettered themselves in modern society.

2. They do not help themselves and only complain we do not give them enough.

3. Give them a greenbelt of a million acres and say, go forth and live as your ancestors, no more money, or assistance.  

1. That doesn't sound accurate but ok.
2. Probably easier for someone not in that culture to blame their culture but ok.
3. Yeah, but no people on earth do this.  Every people have their cultural norms that they guard but ok.

I don't think your point of view is something that they would accept, and so ... well it's probably not going to happen.  But I'm not saying anything in particular about your POV.  Lots feel that way.

[RedDog]

Pipeline sabotage always vanishes when the local band gets more money. 

[Nexii]

Only in Canada is ending the apartheid system considered racist. There's no reason Indigenous people can't live with the rest of society without losing their culture. 100 billion sure would build a lot of museums, libraries, and other cultural centers. Not to mention general education & mental health support for bettering their own lives

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Canadian_Cavalier said:

I'm curious as to why I, as a White man, am responsible for everything bad my ancestors did, but not for any of their accomplishments.

You shouldn't take it so personally. You're not responsible for what your ancestors did, your responsible for what they didn't do, which was to secure and honour treaties with the indigenous people who were here first.

We could, I suppose, abandon these treaties and start fresh with properly negotiated treaties. OTOH we could also officially declare war against indigenous people and then secure surrender treaties once we've conquered them.

 

. 

[ExFlyer]

33 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. That doesn't sound accurate but ok.
2. Probably easier for someone not in that culture to blame their culture but ok.
3. Yeah, but no people on earth do this.  Every people have their cultural norms that they guard but ok.

I don't think your point of view is something that they would accept, and so ... well it's probably not going to happen.  But I'm not saying anything in particular about your POV.  Lots feel that way.

1. Can you demonstrate or cite otherwise?  I don't mean the few, I mean as a population. What do they have that hasn't been provided, free of charge, to them?

2. Again, as I have said, I have personally seen them in their "native" (provided for free) habitat on many many occasions. I do not blame their "culture" I blame them individually, as an unevolved and fully dependant self inflicted group. What is really interesting is that the groups on east coast have identical leanings and demands as th ones on west coast.... modern communications eh? LOL

3. You are correct. maybe we should start a trend? Send them back to what they think is a better world for them. Let them survive and prosper and attack and war and enslave with other tribes?

For sure they would not accept it but, isn't that basically what they are asking? Or is it just another money grab?

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

1. Can you demonstrate or cite otherwise?  

2. You are correct. maybe we should start a trend? Send them back to what they think is a better world for them. Let them survive and prosper and attack and war and enslave with other tribes?

 

1. No, you made the claim.  I just have doubts.  Up to you if you want to cite your claim or not.
2. I was thinking more we start by admitting faults in our own culture but I don't know how you would feel about that.  As I said, we get pretty upset with white poppies because... well I'm not sure... but that might be something.
 

[ExFlyer]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. No, you made the claim.  I just have doubts.  Up to you if you want to cite your claim or not.
2. I was thinking more we start by admitting faults in our own culture but I don't know how you would feel about that.  As I said, we get pretty upset with white poppies because... well I'm not sure... but that might be something.
 

I started flying around the country in the lat 60's. I make my statements on what I have seen. Doubt what you like but go on any reserve and see for yourself.

An example is the band (Sannich Nation) that owns the land that the highway from Schwartz Bay to Victoria is on. Get off the highway and you would think you were in a 3rd world country with dilapidated houses, junk scattered everywhere on the streets and yard and just dump of an area yet, they get it all for free and have businesses along the highway from which they make all sort of money. It has been this bad since I first saw it in 1970.

Our culture is certainly not without fault but, all in Canada with exception of indigenous have to work for what they want and pay for what they get and then pay taxes to maintain what the have.

[Perspektiv]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

indeed they lost a lot

How do you repay that "a lot"?

Also, if the victim is deceased generations ago,  how do you accurately know who is truly owed money? Also, how would it be relevant to provide such sums to grandchildren and anyone other than the direct heir?

In slavery eras or in similar eras, record keeping wasn't necessarily very good. How do you certify someone as a descendant? Or is it a touchy subject, and its just easier to just throw money at people, and leave tax payers who have nothing to do with it to foot the bill?

Its immeasurable. Its a number that literally cannot ever be satisfied, nor should it be.

You would literally have to pay reparations of 5 to 10 million per affected citizen, to where they literally would be seen as incredibly unreasonable to continue pursuing the issue. Even then, many would probably still try and find a means to.

The issue I have as a black male, is the victimhood.

Yes. A lot has happened to them.

Their country was taken from them.

I'm sorry, but I feel zero guilt for being born in Canada, nor should any Canadian.

Life is hard. It also is full of choices.

Is it truly white people who are responsible for this, or generations worth of people making cyclical choices that continue their plight?

If it's the latter, am on the hook for it, because their life is hard?

Or do we have living victims of those past atrocities, who yes--deserve every penny of compensation.?

[PIK]

Imagine if their chiefs and band council's actually cared about their own people, how well they could be doing now. Harper wanted to see where the money went, but some chiefs didn't want to fo that. Then in 2015 Trudeau said he wouldn't ask to see where the money went.

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Is it truly white people who are responsible for this, or generations worth of people making cyclical choices that continue their plight?

If it's the latter, am on the hook for it, because their life is hard?

Treaty making between nations is negotiated between governments not races.  Its Canada's governments and institutions that are responsible.  We are responsible for them.  The longer they're not directed to do their jobs properly the bigger the bill gets.  Put it off long enough and it ends up in SC. Generally speaking that only seems to increase the the cost more. 

Quote

Or do we have living victims of those past atrocities, who yes--deserve every penny of compensation.?

Yes there's also those as well.

[ExFlyer]

16 hours ago, eyeball said:

Treaty making between nations is negotiated between governments not races.  Its Canada's governments and institutions that are responsible.  We are responsible for them.  The longer they're not directed to do their jobs properly the bigger the bill gets.  Put it off long enough and it ends up in SC. Generally speaking that only seems to increase the the cost more. 

Yes there's also those as well.

How do you know that there was not an agreement with chief sitonastump and whoever was in authority at the time?

The indigenous have no written or documented records. All their claims are based on oral stories, which as we all know, change as the tellers and receivers want to hear and tell them.

How can there be a bill if the indigenous have been provided for since back then? Everything is free for them. Are we billing them for total and complete support for the past 300 years??

[eyeball]

39 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Are we billing them for total and complete support for the past 300 years??

No, it's more like they're trying to collect the rent from tenants who are refusing to pay.

You're looking at the situation backwards.

[Nexii]

Should Canada be bound to treaties signed before we were even a nation? I'm not so sure.

I'd argue most of the treaties would be viewed as unconstitutional if we looked at them through the lens of what they are today. Segregationist and not even good for the Indigenous themselves. And a colossal waste of money that could be put to better things.

It's a shame no party has the spine to end the system. Too much guilt over doing it badly last time with the residential schools I suppose. Even though that was very long ago. 

[herbie]

Let's drag our feet on treaties for another hundred years so it can get to $1 Trillion.

 

[RedDog]

Canada is one of the last places on earth where opposing apartheid is considered racism.

[Nexii]

5 minutes ago, RedDog said:

Canada is one of the last places on earth where opposing apartheid is considered racism.

Fun fact: apartheid in South Africa was inspired by Canada's system

[Army Guy]

On 9/22/2023 at 2:18 PM, Michael Hardner said:

You know, they'd probably settle for $50B ?

Anyway, it's fun to see people blow their tops on this stuff but sad that there's no way to actually resolve it.  In terms of the people, I would like someone to acknowledge that indeed they lost a lot.  If the people who flip the table over if you try to change the COLOUR of the poppy would at least do that, I would be happy.

Ok I'll admit they lost a lot, but those are just words and will change nothing...

As for white poppies ,

i want to add this, "we have but one day a year" to remember those that have sacrificed their lives for this nation...I get it a large portion of Canadians don't care, for them it is a day off to relax and do what ever.... to some it is a day of mourning and rememberance, they wear the poppy as it is a symbol of just that, remembrance for those that sacrificed everything, .. 

Poppies are red becasue thats the color they were in Flanders field...Not white or purple, or what ever other color some other groups wants to paint them.... "Our soldiers" have One day a year, to remember them, honor them in ceremonies, and thank them for their sacrifices. want to have you own day to honor why everyone is purple with warts on the d*cks do that,  but NOV 11 is already taken, along with the red poppy...

To be honest i'd like to see NOV 11, turned into a day just for soldiers, and vets, The day has turned into a circus, for photo ops for political figures of all sorts, for some Canadians to come and see the soldiers march by like they were at the zoo...so they can say we did our part...the other 354 days Canada's military is forgotten, lock back in the closet only to be dusted off next Nov 11...

I don't attend public Nov 11 ceremonies any more for that reason, for me it is an emotional day, i get together with a large group of comrades, at the legion, we drink lots, tell funney and sad stories about the fallen, we cry, we laugh and get drunk...at the end of the night we take our Red poppies and place them on our comrades pictures that hang in the hall of rememberance... 

...to put that in to perspective LGBTQ community has 134 calendar days to remember.... Im sure they would have also flipped the table if we insisted on changing the colors to their flag to white for peace...

Sorry for the rant...

 

 

 

[herbie]

Proof positive how closed minded ingrained bigotry can lead one to believing they do not have a racist, colonial and selfish outlook on things.

Inclusiveness and obligations be damned. Why should "I" have to pay?