Why we don't make bread in Canada?

myata · July 28, 2023

In pretty much any market country in Europe you'll fine two to five (based on personal experience) small; independent and cheap bakeries within 15 min radius (walking). We just don't have that here. None. Period.

Only one question: why? I see this as one of the best, most precise indicators of ground-level market economy. Not many products are less complicated; and at the same time, more satisfying than good fresh bread. If a small bakery cannot run and couldn't make a living something has to be quite / very wrong. What is it?

Do we have a fake monopolistic economy disguised as pseudo-market, with no real market behavior and of course, value and quality in sight (in Europe you go to the market to buy both more fresh and cheaper than supermarket)? Try that in Canada.

Michael Hardner · July 28, 2023

16 minutes ago, myata said:

1. Only one question: why? I see this as one of the best, most precise indicators of ground-level market economy. Not many products are less complicated; and at the same time, more satisfying than good fresh bread. If a small bakery cannot run and couldn't make a living something has to be quite / very wrong. What is it?

2. Do we have a fake monopolistic economy disguised as pseudo-market, with no real market behavior and of course, value and quality in sight (in Europe you go to the market to buy both more fresh and cheaper than supermarket)? Try that in Canada.

1. There are at least five bakeries in walking distance from my neighbourhood. The bread is more expensive though. I'm not sure that "bread" is a precise indicator of anything, such as "ground-level market economy" anyway>
2. Monopolies are definitely a thing in Canada. But if the price of sh1tty factory bread were as high as the local baked kind you can guess what would happen. I used to love bread when I lived in France, buying from the local every day but it was subsidized by the government so not market. Now the EU subsidizes it, I understand. Farm subsidies are everywhere, most notoriously with Dairy in Canada.

Nefarious Banana · July 28, 2023

Mike, your boy Justin will soon put the wheat producers out of business with the fertilizer/fuel prices/cutbacks.

Let's import bread like we do with oil . . . . makes sense?

Boges · July 28, 2023

You should learn how to make your own Bread.

CdnFox · July 28, 2023

Quote

In pretty much any market country in Europe you'll fine two to five (based on personal experience) small; independent and cheap bakeries within 15 min radius (walking). We just don't have that here. None. Period.

Gotta agree with mike, i see them pretty regular. And then there's cobbs which is a franchise so it's still a local baker.

myata · July 28, 2023

1 hour ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Let's import bread like we do with oil . . . . makes sense?

Dont you laugh how would you know our big monopolistic retailers aren't doing it already?

myata · July 28, 2023

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. There are at least five bakeries in walking distance from my neighbourhood.

I don't insist on knowing all the truth. Let's see how this situation is. I can name one within 15 min drive (Starbucks and Hortons aside) but that's an exquisite a la France stuff, you get the prices. One local store claims locally baked bread (it's a chain though doesn't look like they make it in store). Prices begin at $5.

Michael Hardner · July 28, 2023

15 minutes ago, myata said:

I don't insist on knowing all the truth. Let's see how this situation is. I can name one within 15 min drive (Starbucks and Hortons aside) but that's an exquisite a la France stuff, you get the prices. One local store claims locally baked bread (it's a chain though doesn't look like they make it in store). Prices begin at $5.

Ok. Well that's fair.

I look at what happened in Ontario with local brews... prices are higher, but so is local involvement and quality. Huge shit brands have to cut their prices to zero to compete. We buy a 6 pack of them to drink after the good stuff has been drank.

myata · July 28, 2023

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok. Well that's fair.

Whoa? The wholesale price of wheat is under $1 a kilo ok make it retail. How the ***k would it make any sense in market economy? You open your home shop sell it for half price and several blocks up line up because you're the only one doing that every morning. No something is very not right.

The suck-bread" was 1.99 before the pandemic, went 60% to 100% in three years. Whoa? How does that work? Only in your local monopoly.

Michael Hardner · July 28, 2023

11 minutes ago, myata said:

How does that work? Only in your local monopoly.

You answered your own question

Queenmandy85 · July 28, 2023

Myata, it looks like you have discovered a great location for your new bakery. The price of flour is no mystery. Did you forget there is a war on in the heart of grain production region of Europe resulting in a global shortage?

myata · July 28, 2023

29 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Myata, it looks like you have discovered a great location for your new bakery.

Yeah may have a few ideas. Tuscany? Or Lisbon, maybe Faro? What do you think? (I know you can be generous with a good advice ? )

herbie · July 28, 2023

Soon as I read the title I thought: someone must've slept throught years of price fixing scandal...

I always buy bread from Vancouver suppliers for $1 or more less than the Dumpsters brand.

Edited July 28, 2023 by herbie

Boges · July 28, 2023

Local bakeries are really only economically viable in large urban centres.

The big boxification of the suburbs make it more difficult for bakeries to survive.

Cobbs is a franchise that specializes in good bread. But ultimately the best bread is natural Sourdough. But the long fermentation makes it difficult to scale up at an affordable price.

CdnFox · July 28, 2023

1 minute ago, Boges said:

Local bakeries are really only economically viable in large urban centres.

The big boxification of the suburbs make it more difficult for bakeries to survive.

Cobbs is a franchise that specializes in good bread. But ultimately the best bread is natural Sourdough. But the long fermentation makes it difficult to scale up at an affordable price.

Well sure, what you're saying is that 'specialty' breads make for decent little shops where there's a market while 'mass produced' bread works for the average consumer. Quality bread is niche.

A lot of the big grocery stores do still have their own bakeries of course.

myata · July 28, 2023

Suburbs have malls so why would anyone buy supermarket stuff (even if claimed "own" baked somewhere some time) if there's a fresh and cheaper alternative in the same strip? No it's something weird, air? that somehow suppresses ground level market activity the way it's common in other places.

Queenmandy85 · July 29, 2023

4 hours ago, myata said:

Yeah may have a few ideas. Tuscany? Or Lisbon, maybe Faro? What do you think? (I know you can be generous with a good advice ? )

I mean your own neighbourhood. You say there are no bakeries but you also say there is demand. Try a little free enterprise. Or, as has been suggested, bake your own.
If this first world problem is an issue for you then you must be having a good life.

Moonbox · July 29, 2023

8 hours ago, myata said:

In pretty much any market country in Europe you'll fine two to five (based on personal experience) small; independent and cheap bakeries within 15 min radius (walking). We just don't have that here. None. Period.

I make my own bread. Sometimes I do it with the grains I use to make my own beer. It's good. Lots of people make bread where I live.

Aristides · July 29, 2023

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. There are at least five bakeries in walking distance from my neighbourhood. The bread is more expensive though. I'm not sure that "bread" is a precise indicator of anything, such as "ground-level market economy" anyway>
2. Monopolies are definitely a thing in Canada. But if the price of sh1tty factory bread were as high as the local baked kind you can guess what would happen. I used to love bread when I lived in France, buying from the local every day but it was subsidized by the government so not market. Now the EU subsidizes it, I understand. Farm subsidies are everywhere, most notoriously with Dairy in Canada.

Dairy isn’t subsidized in Canada.

Michael Hardner · July 29, 2023

9 hours ago, Aristides said:

Dairy isn’t subsidized in Canada.

Sorry, it was protected via strong trade programs but I believe they're being phased out now.

myata · July 29, 2023

9 hours ago, Aristides said:

Dairy isn’t subsidized in Canada

So in Europe agriculture has several essential roles: it is a traditional industry; a source of food security; a foundation of employment; and a way of life. As a result, in many or most country, one can get high or top quality product at reasonable price.

Once more: the reason, and the result of the policy are both clear; and real.

What is the purpose of our policies here? (and as an extension, governments). We grow the same stuff. Negotiated a bunch of agreements and paying a ton to bureaucrats. But there's no product that is both cheap and high quality! Also as we hear regularly, farmers complain that it's not beneficial to them. Who is it working for then, I mean the system? Unless mostly for itself as wound up two centuries back and drumming. Oh yeah there's shortage in Africa. That should explain everything.

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Lots of people make bread where I live.

Not everybody has a knack for it, time etc. Are you saying there wouldn't be a demand for fresh, locally baked this morning, great taste and quality cheap bread? Even in a small town.

Aristides · July 29, 2023

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Sorry, it was protected via strong trade programs but I believe they're being phased out now.

Protected but not subsidized. No tax dollars go to dairy farmers.

Aristides · July 29, 2023

Supply management was introduced to try and give farmers a price that actually reflected the cost of production, not a subsidized price. Its intent is to avoid the need for subsidies.

https://www.realagriculture.com/2018/02/u-s-dairy-subsidies-equal-73-percent-of-producer-returns-says-new-report/

https://www.usda.gov/media/press-releases/2023/01/23/usda-announces-additional-assistance-dairy-farmers

https://www.investors.com/politics/editorials/dairy-subsidies-government-farm-programs-surplus-cheese/

https://farm.ewg.org/progdetail.php?fips=00000&progcode=dairy&page=states

https://policy-practice.oxfam.org/resources/milking-the-cap-how-europes-dairy-regime-is-devastating-livelihoods-in-the-deve-114549/

Edited July 29, 2023 by Aristides