China's interference in Canadian elections

[blackbird]

If the news reports that China's interference mainly benefited the Liberals, why should anyone believe anything a Liberal says on the subject?  There is good reason the Liberals would downplay the effect on the election outcome?  53% of Canadians say this is a serious threat to democracy.  It seems to me the Liberals are automatically in a conflict of interest when they speak on the subject since they are the beneficiaries of the influence.

China-linked WeChat accounts spread disinformation in advance of 2021 Canadian election | by @DFRLab | DFRLab | Medium

[Queenmandy85]

China is not the only serious threat to the political climate in Canada. The Russian GRU and its ilk are bombarding us with reams of mis-information on the Ukrainian fight for its independence. Then there are Americans trying to subvert Canadian democracy with operations such as the Ottawa occupation, partially financed by Americans and openly flaunting American flags. This is nothing new. Canadian political parties receive assistance (volunteers) from both Republican and Democratic parties and reciprocate in kind. 

[blackbird]

3 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

China is not the only serious threat to the political climate in Canada. The Russian GRU and its ilk are bombarding us with reams of mis-information on the Ukrainian fight for its independence. Then there are Americans trying to subvert Canadian democracy with operations such as the Ottawa occupation, partially financed by Americans and openly flaunting American flags. This is nothing new. Canadian political parties receive assistance (volunteers) from both Republican and Democratic parties and reciprocate in kind. 

I have a couple questions for you?

1.  Do you believe the Ottawa occupation was heavily influenced and financed by some Americans or would you say it was a very small part of the number of protesters?

2.  Do you believe the Americans that were involved were just a fringe group who were protesting against mandates and Trudeau's leftism or authoritarianism?

3.  Do you believe American influence is more dangerous than influence from China?

4.  Would you rate American's influence as the same kind of threat as from China's influence?

5.  Do you think Russian influence in Canada is anywhere near the same magnitude as China's influence?

[Nefarious Banana]

49 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

China is not the only serious threat to the political climate in Canada. The Russian GRU and its ilk are bombarding us with reams of mis-information on the Ukrainian fight for its independence. Then there are Americans trying to subvert Canadian democracy with operations such as the Ottawa occupation, partially financed by Americans and openly flaunting American flags. This is nothing new. Canadian political parties receive assistance (volunteers) from both Republican and Democratic parties and reciprocate in kind. 

Yeah but,  yeah but,  yeah but  . . . . .  

[WestCanMan]

America's influence in Canadian elections is no more legal or legitimate, and it dwarfs anything we get from China.

There are millions of Canadians who are completely indoctrinated with alt-left 1diocy to the point where they refuse to even think for themselves. 

TBH, I'd like to take a look at the Chinese propaganda. Why not? At least male teachers there don't wear z-cup prosthetic boobs, or have the power to get your kid a sex change operation without your knowledge or consent. 

[WestCanMan]

57 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Yeah but,  yeah but,  yeah but  . . . . .  

Lol. I love how people think "The Russians bombard us with propaganda but CNN/CTV are always telling the unblemished truth "

I haven't even seen any Russian propaganda and I'm on the internet a lot. 

Have you seen any reports that Russia is walking all over Ukraine? Or that the whole world supports them? Or anything at all that says "Things are going swimmingly for Russia right now..."?

We get propaganda that says "Russia wasn't provoked at all!!!" and "It's a genocide - 15,000 Russian troops are dead and only a couple thousand Ukrainian troops and civilians!!!" and "Russians bombed their own pipeline!!!"

Honestly, it's not even good propaganda. You have to be stupid to believe any of it. 

Edited March 3, 2023 by WestCanMan

[eyeball]

This is a fairly straightforward lobbying issue that could be fixed with the addition of a principle that secrecy in public's domain (notwithstanding the occasional security reason) is wrong and a few other tweaks to the Lobbying Act to deal with the secrecy.

But since no one is really that interested in transparency other than when partisans are given the opportunity to polish their own halos with it I have little more than a big yawn and a good old who cares to say to this.

Is it wrong? No doubt but who really knows when it's all a big secret...that should be our first clue.

 

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

There are millions of Canadians who are completely indoctrinated with alt-left 1diocy to the point where they refuse to even think for themselves.

Do you have any actual evidence of any indoctrinators indoctrinating? Planning it, talking about it, executing it, measuring for results, reporting on its effectiveness. No, you really don't.

But does it ever cross your mind to ask why you don't have any thing really tangible or substantive? Why we don't have appropriately robust institutions of accountability to provide the transparency required to say that you have definitive proof?

How did you get so indoctrinated to the idea everyone else is indoctrinated to the point they're oblivious to it?

I mean I shouldn't even be able to ask these sorts of questions given how indoctrinated you probably think I am. How do you explain it?

Edited March 3, 2023 by eyeball

[Queenmandy85]

5 hours ago, blackbird said:

I have a couple questions for you?

1.  Do you believe the Ottawa occupation was heavily influenced and financed by some Americans or would you say it was a very small part of the number of protesters?

2.  Do you believe the Americans that were involved were just a fringe group who were protesting against mandates and Trudeau's leftism or authoritarianism?

3.  Do you believe American influence is more dangerous than influence from China?

4.  Would you rate American's influence as the same kind of threat as from China's influence?

5.  Do you think Russian influence in Canada is anywhere near the same magnitude as China's influence?

1. Not heavily, but there was a significant amount of American money and a number of American flags. 

2. Yes. The Americans involved seemed to be intent on influencing Canadian policy. "Trudeau's leftism or authoritarianism?" are loaded terms. The Canadian Prime Minister's position on the political spectrum is none of the American's business. The idea that Americans have a right to tell us how we should vote is reminicent of Canadians going down and working to defeat President Trump. 

3. No. American influence is at the same level of danger to Canada as China or Russia's.

4. I refer you to the 1963 election where the Americans interfered to defeat the Conservative Government of Canada because the Canadian Prime Minister refused to arm the Canadian Forces with nuclear weapons. All three super powers use misinformation to influence Canadian politics. At least, in the case of the US, the assault on Canadian values is not state sponsored.

5. Yes. Russia devotes a large amount of energy generating lies about the war for Ukrainian independence and mis-information on the Covid 19 pandemic that we can see in any number of online Russian propaganda factories.

Canada is equally guilty of interferring in US elections. Since China doesn't have elections, we bombard them with demands for human rights. Of the three super powers, only the US has had an impact on degrading Canadian values. Even there, the impact had been low.

[Queenmandy85]

7 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

TBH, I'd like to take a look at the Chinese propaganda. Why not? At least male teachers there don't wear z-cup prosthetic boobs, or have the power to get your kid a sex change operation without your knowledge or consent. 

In the late 1960's I used to read a Red Chinese propaganda magazine for its entertainment value. It always had a photo on the back page caption something like " all hail chairman Mao Tse Tung, Great Supreme Leader, Great Helmsman, Great Commander in Chief, and his close comrade in arms, Lin Pio."

Lin was killed by Mao a year later when his plane was shot down while fleeing to Russia, if memory serves.

 

Edited March 4, 2023 by Queenmandy85

[Queenmandy85]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Lol. I love how people think "The Russians bombard us with propaganda but CNN/CTV are always telling the unblemished truth "

I haven't even seen any Russian propaganda and I'm on the internet a lot. 

Have you seen any reports that Russia is walking all over Ukraine? Or that the whole world supports them? Or anything at all that says "Things are going swimmingly for Russia right now..."?

We get propaganda that says "Russia wasn't provoked at all!!!" and "It's a genocide - 15,000 Russian troops are dead and only a couple thousand Ukrainian troops and civilians!!!" and "Russians bombed their own pipeline!!!"

Honestly, it's not even good propaganda. You have to be stupid to believe any of it. 

I don't know who will win the war for Ukrainian independence, but what I do know is the Ukrainians have been winning the propaganda war. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

5 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

America's influence in Canadian elections is no more legal or legitimate, and it dwarfs anything we get from China.

American influence on our elections won’t end those elections any time soon. Their effect is essentially benign. By contrast, the CCP will not be happy until the world is as miserable as China. It’s the only way Xi and the gang can guarantee their rule at home indefinitely. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

There are clearly security issues here that would make a public inquiry problematic. I would like to see a confidential internal inquiry administered by parliament. Unfortunately, JT can’t be trusted to run this himself. 

[I am Groot]

6 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

China is not the only serious threat to the political climate in Canada. The Russian GRU and its ilk are bombarding us with reams of mis-information on the Ukrainian fight for its independence. Then there are Americans trying to subvert Canadian democracy with operations such as the Ottawa occupation, partially financed by Americans and openly flaunting American flags. This is nothing new. Canadian political parties receive assistance (volunteers) from both Republican and Democratic parties and reciprocate in kind. 

CSIS says the theory that Americans helped finance the convoy are untrue.

And neither the Russians nor the Americans are passing money under the table to federal candidates, nor ordering their students here to illegally vote for them.

[I am Groot]

4 hours ago, eyeball said:

This is a fairly straightforward lobbying issue that could be fixed with the addition of a principle that secrecy in public's domain 

It's not that simple once they've gotten to the point of forcing their students here to both volunteer for and vote for a candidate and are funneling money into the candidate's campaign. Not to mention they way they can flood local Chinese language media with whatever messages they want.

[WestCanMan]

38 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

 the CCP will not be happy until the world is as miserable as China. 

Didn't we already go there? Does it honestly get worse than 2020 and 2021? 

[I am Groot]

Global News Sam Cooper broke the news the other day that Vincent Ke was the Ontario MLA through which the Chinese consulate in Toronto funded the eleven federal candidates in the ridings they wanted to control. The money went from the consulate to a Chinese-Canadian businessman, was then sent to Ke who disbursed it to the ridings, while keeping some for himself.

Unlike the case with Han Dong, the Liberal MP named by CSIS, Ke was quickly forced out of the Ontario PC caucus.

Which begs the question: Why is Dong still a proud member of the Liberal caucus?

https://globalnews.ca/news/9430612/chinese-government-canada-election-interference/

Edited March 11, 2023 by I am Groot

[eyeball]

On 3/3/2023 at 4:26 PM, I am Groot said:

It's not that simple once they've gotten to the point of forcing their students here to both volunteer for and vote for a candidate and are funneling money into the candidate's campaign. Not to mention they way they can flood local Chinese language media with whatever messages they want.

It could be that simple if party members demanded an end to the in-camera meetings their party's leaders hold.

If I was a partisan voter I think I'd actually apply greater scrutiny to my party. I don't want to lose the representation I have if some ambitious MP cocks things up and causes a scandal resulting in a unnecessary ideological shift in a direction I might not be interested in.

I would suggest this is exactly what's happening to the Liberals now.

I recall the time we had a Conservative Fisheries Minister who was a little more even handed when it came to allocating salmon to the various sectors on the west coast. Then there was some sudden scandal on the east coast that caused the Minister to resign and we were stuck with a new Minister who was less even handed on the West coast.

Perhaps you can understand why there was a call to let Provinces manage their marine fisheries. I note each US State manages their own fisheries and a lot more Americans are still fishing for a living catching more Canadian bound salmon than Canadian fishermen are allowed to catch.

This is a cost all Canadians are left paying for and it all relates back to the lack of transparency and the amount of secrecy that's involved in our governance.

Edited March 11, 2023 by eyeball

[RedDog]

Why is the “west” even talking with China? They are vile. Like Russia, we need to move on and leave these losers behind.

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, RedDog said:

Why is the “west” even talking with China? They are vile. Like Russia, we need to move on and leave these losers behind.

China's government is vile like Russia's.

You need to try harder to differentiate between the governed and their governments.

[ExFlyer]

Elections being influenced by (fill in the blank) is as old as elections themselves.

Parties and candidates being bought or influenced by every donation and business or persons wanting something in return is normal.

Why is China being singled out? I am quite sure the US has influenced our elections far more than the Chinese. Other countries as well.

Every candidate that is running is being influenced in one way or another by someone or some entity.

As far as the Chinese are concerned, their influence in Canada is no ones fault but our own. All parties and governments in the pat 590 year  has bowed to China to get their business and allowed them to buy Canada.

I see our situation as a self inflicted wound.

[RedDog]

5 minutes ago, eyeball said:

China's government is vile like Russia's.

You need to try harder to differentiate between the governed and their governments.

I’m only suggesting we can all attempt to cooperate with the greater community or not. I suggest there are two “problems”.

[West]

On 3/3/2023 at 11:59 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

China is not the only serious threat to the political climate in Canada. The Russian GRU and its ilk are bombarding us with reams of mis-information on the Ukrainian fight for its independence. Then there are Americans trying to subvert Canadian democracy with operations such as the Ottawa occupation, partially financed by Americans and openly flaunting American flags. This is nothing new. Canadian political parties receive assistance (volunteers) from both Republican and Democratic parties and reciprocate in kind. 

?????

[West]

On 3/3/2023 at 1:02 PM, WestCanMan said:

America's influence in Canadian elections is no more legal or legitimate, and it dwarfs anything we get from China.

There are millions of Canadians who are completely indoctrinated with alt-left 1diocy to the point where they refuse to even think for themselves. 

TBH, I'd like to take a look at the Chinese propaganda. Why not? At least male teachers there don't wear z-cup prosthetic boobs, or have the power to get your kid a sex change operation without your knowledge or consent. 

My theory is China is pumping that sh!t out. There was never this level of mental illness in society until tiktok came out

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

It could be that simple if party members demanded an end to the in-camera meetings their party's leaders hold.

Do you honestly think a guy like Dong would obey such a directive? And how can you require cameras with MPs who are constantly meeting with constituents on private matters like immigration or passport issues, not to mention meeting tons of people at various cultural festivals and religious get-togethers?

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Perhaps you can understand why there was a call to let Provinces manage their marine fisheries. I note each US State manages their own fisheries and a lot more Americans are still fishing for a living catching more Canadian bound salmon than Canadian fishermen are allowed to catch.

The problems of Canada's fisheries lie in the fact the central government mostly doesn't give a shit about fisheries because all the votes are in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. I would agree that the provinces should look after fishing but no government ever gives up power over anything.