China's interference in Canadian elections

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

It could be that simple if party members demanded an end to the in-camera meetings their party's leaders hold.

Do you honestly think a guy like Dong would obey such a directive? And how can you require cameras with MPs who are constantly meeting with constituents on private matters like immigration or passport issues, not to mention meeting tons of people at various cultural festivals and religious get-togethers?

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Perhaps you can understand why there was a call to let Provinces manage their marine fisheries. I note each US State manages their own fisheries and a lot more Americans are still fishing for a living catching more Canadian bound salmon than Canadian fishermen are allowed to catch.

The problems of Canada's fisheries lie in the fact the central government mostly doesn't give a shit about fisheries because all the votes are in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. I would agree that the provinces should look after fishing but no government ever gives up power over anything.

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, West said:

My theory is China is pumping that sh!t out. There was never this level of mental illness in society until tiktok came out

It's been getting worse and worse for a long time though.

I could be wrong but I think the vagina hat march happened before tiktok came out. 

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Do you honestly think a guy like Dong would obey such a directive? And how can you require cameras with MPs who are constantly meeting with constituents on private matters like immigration or passport issues,

First you differentiate between what is in a private citizen's domain and the public's domain - there is a clear difference between secrecy and privacy.  In-camera (an Italian term) means in-chambers AKA behind closed doors away from the public.  I see no reason why the meeting between SNC Lavalin's lobbyists and Liberal Ministers shouldn't have been open to the public given the public's stake in the matters being discussed.

At this point we'd need to borrow a page or two from something like Robert's Rules of Order where any business or decisions coming out of a meeting are recorded. The point being that if the meeting wasn't recorded then it literally didn't happen.  If the business or execution of a decision down the road doesn't match what was recorded then you'd have evidence that someone met with a lobbyist in a secret process away from the public.

I think much could be accomplished to make things much more transparent through changes and tweaks to the existing Lobbying Act. I'd add a principle that defines the public's interest and that differentiates it from a private individual's and make the necessary changes that allow for auditing, validating and verifying what exactly was discussed in meetings where the public has a clear obvious stake.

Quote

not to mention meeting tons of people at various cultural festivals and religious get-togethers?

So what, these are obviously within the public's domain.

Quote

The problems of Canada's fisheries lie in the fact the central government mostly doesn't give a shit about fisheries because all the votes are in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal. I would agree that the provinces should look after fishing but no government ever gives up power over anything.

I know, that's why we'd need to focus on changes to existing legislation so we wouldn't have to change the Constitution, become a Republic, seperate or have a revolution. 

Edited March 11 by eyeball

[CdnFox]

21 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Elections being influenced by (fill in the blank) is as old as elections themselves.

Yes and no - and for the vast majority of countries it's always been illegal.

There is influencing and then there is interference.  I did a post not long ago comparing the russian efforts in the US elections with the Chinese efforts.  it's night and day. You cross a line at a point and the americans have not, the russians haven't that we know of, the chinese appear to have done so.

21 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Parties and candidates being bought or influenced by every donation and business or persons wanting something in return is normal.

It's not 'normal'.  That's like saying murder is "normal" so we shouldn't complain about it.  It happens but it is not to be tolerated nor is it the 'normal' course of events.

21 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Why is China being singled out? I am quite sure the US has influenced our elections far more than the Chinese. Other countries as well.

Well you would be wrong. There's actually zero evidence that the united states gov't puts funding into or attempts to get leverage over any of our politicians.  And if such evidence DOES emerge then they should be 'singled out' every bit as much.

21 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Every candidate that is running is being influenced in one way or another by someone or some entity.

But every candidate isn't receiving large amounts of money in violation of the act. Nor are they having their aids arranged to be agents of another gov't. Nor are they being pressured if they have family in that other country.

If you have evidence that they are you should put it forward. We DO have evidence of that from China.

21 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

As far as the Chinese are concerned, their influence in Canada is no ones fault but our own. All parties and governments in the pat 590 year  has bowed to China to get their business and allowed them to buy Canad

There is a fundamental difference between doing business with china and letting them buy our elections.

Harper did business with china, but he also called them out on human rights issues and met with the Dalai lama and did a bunch of other things in their face. When they complained he told them to suck our oil. Doing business with someone actually gives you some power over them.

But this is something completely different. You are correct tho that it's up to us, the voters have to toss the libearls out over this and elect gov'ts who are willing to dig into it and get to the bottom of it.

[SpankyMcFarland]

Thing is the problem is only going to get worse because the CCP wants it that way. As a voter who generally goes Liberal, I’m none too impressed by JT calling Opposition criticism of his choice of rapporteur ‘horrific’. Such a term should generally be reserved for the actions of murderous tyrants like Putin and his friend across the border. Let’s face it, we’re not going to stop PRC interference in our elections (and everything else) any day soon - it’s a global initiative after all - but we should at least stiffen resistance while we still run this country. I’m tilting towards a public inquiry to see how far the rot has already set in, but focused on our government’s actions or lack thereof. The testimony of Chinese dissidents here tells us in no uncertain terms that the threat is real and growing. 

Edited March 18 by SpankyMcFarland

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

but we should at least stiffen resistance while we still run this country.

Well this is the thing. And you can do MUCH to reduce the influence if that's what you want to do.

Laws requiring agents of other gov'ts to register, laws about foreign nationals donating to political parties, etc etc They all help make it less worth the pain.

And public shaming of any candidate who accepts such donations - keeps them from soliciting it.

So far tho - doesn't sound like trudeau wants to do anything

[I am Groot]

What is China looking for from Canada?

Guy Saint-Jacques, the Canadian ambassador before McCallum, recalls attending a 2016 dinner in Montreal for a visiting Li Keqiang, until recently the Chinese premier. The Mandarin-speaking Saint-Jacques and his wife were among three Caucasians in a crowd of over 600 Chinese-Canadians.

“The message of Li Kequing was ‘Don’t forget the motherland — bring back technology, bring back investment,’” he said. “It was like he was talking to Chinese nationals. China doesn’t care about foreign citizenship.”

Xi Jinping's government has stressed this more and more often in the last half dozen years. No matter where you live or what papers you own you are CHINESE and owe loyalty to China. China is your heritage and you must always be guided by what will be best for China. They are constantly seeking to influence overseas Chinese to remember their race. Which is something that would normally appal liberals as it is reminiscent of Nazism. But liberals are ignoring it here.

https://ottawacitizen.com/news/canada/what-does-china-want-from-canada/wcm/74057289-cee8-4b54-9554-e1fec44770d6

[SpankyMcFarland]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:18 PM, WestCanMan said:

Didn't we already go there? Does it honestly get worse than 2020 and 2021? 

Much, much worse. 

[SpankyMcFarland]

Poilievre is a brilliant debater but I hope he doesn’t turn this into a petty partisan fight. He has to appeal to Liberals too. The threat from the PRC existed long before JT became PM and will continue into the foreseeable future. Supporters and politicians from every party need to work together on this grave national problem. 
 

[eyeball]

22 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The threat from the PRC existed long before JT became PM and will continue into the foreseeable future. Supporters and politicians from every party need to work together on this grave national problem. 
 

If it was truly grave we'd have severed all ties with China's government - just on general principles....decades ago.

Election interference is just one more thing and pretty minor compared to the CCP's never ending virtually universal disdain for human rights.

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Poilievre is a brilliant debater but I hope he doesn’t turn this into a petty partisan fight. He has to appeal to Liberals too. The threat from the PRC existed long before JT became PM and will continue into the foreseeable future. Supporters and politicians from every party need to work together on this grave national problem. 
 

The threat is growing worse as the number of Chinese in Canada increases.

And I say Chinese. Not Chinese-Canadians. Although the increase in Chinese-Canadians also makes us more vulnerable to interference by China.

But it seems growing numbers of Chinese immigrants are not bothering to obtain citizenship, and are not swearing allegiance to Canada.

Chinese immigrants must now choose one passport or the other when they arrive in Canada. If they can’t have both, it appears most are deciding to remain Chinese citizens even after they settle permanently in this country.

Now, on the one hand, they can't legally vote in elections. On the other hand, they can certainly vote in nomination meetings. They can also be used by China for intelligence and influence operations against others. They can also legally contribute money to election campaigns and volunteer to work for a candidate. Especially if ordered to by China (and reimbursed by them). 

https://c2cjournal.ca/2023/03/are-immigrants-falling-out-of-love-with-canada-and-is-it-because-canadians-feel-the-same/

 

[CdnFox]

29 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

The threat is growing worse as the number of Chinese in Canada increases.

Its' funny but i was reading some old hansard records from when John A was in office. The exact same debate was happening back in that day. They were discussing the challenges with 'naturalized' canadians and how some may still be loyal to china or exert undue influence over canadian politicians, and also it was being noted that many Chinese canadians were dedicated to canada too so what to do...  i guess the more things change the more they stay the same

[Contrarian]

⬆️ Trending via Global News

RCMP ‘will be successful’ in laying more interference charges: interim chief.

The interim commissioner of the RCMP says he would support additional laws that allow police to further crack down on foreign interference in Canada, as well as ways to further collaborate with intelligence officials on the issue.

But Mike Duheme adds multiple investigations remain underway that he’s confident will lead to criminal charges, though he did not give specifics.

Edited April 2 by Contrarian
edit design

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

But Mike Duheme adds multiple investigations remain underway that he’s confident will lead to criminal charges, though he did not give specifics.

Really.  Interesting.  I didn't know there were even any ongoing investigations.