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Canada's military is broken and falling apart.


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13 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Yes but you would think Coast Guard helicopters should be able to do SAR. The US  coast guard is often hauling distressed Canadian boaters out of the water.

the Coast Guard doesn't have the Search & Rescue Technicians

the Coast Guard can search and give somebody a ride

but if you need to jump in, stabilize casualties & extract from a crash site etc, you need SAR Techs

the US Coast Guard is part of the US Navy

all the US Coast Guard roles in Canada are performed by the CAF

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15 minutes ago, herbie said:

Yeah it is good to have people like me who know it's 2023 and not 1953, isn't it? Someone who's actually seen maps and globes and can figure out if you want to launch a surprise attack you don't do it from as far away as possible.
 

for the Russians to launch a preemptive counterforce first strike

they would have to take out the Minuteman III silos in North Dakota, Montana & Wyoming

each silo would have to be struck with a high yield thermonuclear warhead, 800 Kts to 1 Mt range

so they would have to get all of their SSBN's up under the polar ice cap

then creep down into Canadian waters to get as close as possible, at the southern Northwest Passage

then launch their RSM-54 Sineva & RSM-56 Bulava SLBM's on a low angle of attack depressed trajectory

they would need at least a thousand warheads, which would require all of their available SSBN's

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24 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the Coast Guard doesn't have the Search & Rescue Technicians

the Coast Guard can search and give somebody a ride

but if you need to jump in, stabilize casualties & extract from a crash site etc, you need SAR Techs

the US Coast Guard is part of the US Navy

all the US Coast Guard roles in Canada are performed by the CAF

That is one of the reasons it is ingenuous to include them in defence spending.

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7 minutes ago, Aristides said:

That is one of the reasons it is ingenuous to include them in defence spending.

the whole NATO 2% GDP defence spending objective is not binding

that is just a target set by memorandum of understanding

there is nothing in the 1949 Washington Treaty which actually binds Canada to spend any particular amount

Edited by Dougie93
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47 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Yes but you would think Coast Guard helicopters should be able to do SAR. The US  coast guard is often hauling distressed Canadian boaters out of the water.

They don’t need to….  Military at Comox is designated for SAR. Why would we pay for that kind of redundancy?

You may as well have criticized the police helicopter unit or the Air Ambulance for not doing the SAR you were talking about.  

Edited by TreeBeard
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the reality is, Canada spends a huge amount on "Defence"

Canada spends $21 billion a year

Estonia is in NATO too, and they only spend $700 million

Canada is one of the biggest spenders in NATO

bear in mind tho, half of that goes just to pay the troops

the other half is mostly spent on overhead, like maintaining way more bases than Canada actually needs

the thing about Canada, Canada is expensive, most of the money gets used up on overhead

so Canada increasing its defence spending does not mean Canada is going to be buying lots of weapons

Canada has very little left over for capital expenditures, once all the overhead is paid off

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2 hours ago, Aristides said:

We had an incident a few years ago where Coast Guard helicopters couldn't take part in a search because the weather was below civilian minimums. SAR out of Comox were able to take part because the military is not subject to the same weather minima.

Understand that Coast Guard helicopters are not equipped for SAR. Never intended for any such operations. No equipment, so spotters positions etc.

Coast Guard helicopters are for transport, observation platforms, cargo and, personnel rotations on ships.

As for SAR weather conditions, I can assure you that they do not go out on SAR in conditions that are dangerous to crew. They also have minimums they must observe. They are not exempt from any air regulations.

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I just looked it up

the DND budget is 37% personnel costs, 36% operating costs, only 17% capital expenditures

so of the $21 billion defence budget, only $3.57 billion is available for buying new things

and that's everything, for the Army, Navy & Air Force

when you look at the price of a new Canadian built warship for example, which is $5 billion per unit

you can see how capital poor DND is in relation to the cost of contemporary weapon systems

particularly when Canada insists on building in Canada, which raises the price exponentially

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/reports-publications/transition-materials/defence-101/2020/03/defence-101/defence-budget.html

Edited by Dougie93
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1 hour ago, herbie said:

Yeah it is good to have people like me who know it's 2023 and not 1953, isn't it? Someone who's actually seen maps and globes and can figure out if you want to launch a surprise attack you don't do it from as far away as possible.
 

You might want to talk to the liberal government who is going to be investing new funding into the old dew line for NORAD...I'd do it quick the money is already allotted...Nah they will figure it out , i mean you did right.

Why do you think the dew line is up north, should they have placed all those dew line radar bases in the east and west where the attacks are coming from? 

Edited by Army Guy
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Just now, Army Guy said:

You might want to talk to the liberal government who is going to be investing new funding into the old dew line for NORAD...I'd do it quick the money is already allotted...Nah they will figure it out , i mean you did right.

the Conservatives don't actually spend more than the Liberals

the biggest recent expenditure of defence projects was under the Liberals

that was just under conservative Liberal Paul Martin as opposed to Commie traitor Liberal Justin Trudeau

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54 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

They don’t need to….  Military at Comox is designated for SAR. Why would we pay for that kind of redundancy?

You may as well have criticized the police helicopter unit or the Air Ambulance for not doing the SAR you were talking about.  

SAR isn't really a defence function so why should it be included in defence spending.

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5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the Conservatives don't actually spend more than the Liberals

the biggest recent expenditure of defence projects was under the Liberals

that was just under conservative Liberal Paul Martin as opposed to Commie traitor Liberal Justin Trudeau

The whole spending thing is a huge myth. That being said Yes the liberals have spent more on the military than the conservatives, but one has to ask did they have a chose, not really, 40 plus years for the F-18, well over that for ships, even by Canadians standards they were due for replacement...that and i would wonder how much pressure Justin got off our closet allieds. So i really don't want to give them that much credit. 

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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

The whole spending thing is a huge myth. That being said Yes the liberals have spent more on the military than the conservatives, but one has to ask did they have a chose, not really, 40 plus years for the F-18, well over that for ships, even by Canadians standards they were due for replacement...that and i would wonder how much pressure Justin got off our closet allieds. So i really don't want to give them that much credit. 

in fairness to that degenerate pathological lying psychopath Justin Trudeau

he has been forced to cave in and buy some new kit,

ever since he is suddenly trying to portray himself as Captain NATO

the Liberals have committed to buying the RCAF both the F-35 & the P-8

those are the two crown jewels that the RCAF has been pining for

I guess the Liberals are courting the RCAF vote, since the Army is with the Truckers : ducimus

Edited by Dougie93
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2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

SAR isn't really a defence function so why should it be included in defence spending.

It is not , But in the agreed NATO agreements there are mentioned so of the things some nations do count, justin found these loop holes and is riding it to the beach, it cost him nothing and he gets credit for boosting military expenditures same as RCMP is considered para military under NATO agreements, so the entire budget gets added to military expenditures along with some of the coast guard functions... it makes no sense but Justin gets credit, and it cost him nothing.

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1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

in fairness to that degenerate pathological lying psychopath Justin Trudeau

he has been forced to cave in and buy some new kit, since he's suddenly trying to portray himself as Captain NATO

the Liberals have committing to buying the RCAF both the F-35 & the P-8

those are the two crown jewels  that the RCAF has been pining for

I guess they are courting the RCAF vote, since the Army is with the Truckers : ducimus

The world already knows where he and Canada stands in regards to liberal promises, The UN is still waiting after 8 years for a peace keeping force he promised, NATO is still waiting for Justin to to spend 2 % which he promised, NORAD is getting some funding i just hope it is enough, but kudos for that...He has also promised more ground forces for Latvia, Naval forces for pacific. At what point is the CDS going to ask him to stop...or has he already...  

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10 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

The world already knows where he and Canada stands in regards to liberal promises, The UN is still waiting after 8 years for a peace keeping force he promised, NATO is still waiting for Justin to to spend 2 % which he promised, NORAD is getting some funding i just hope it is enough, but kudos for that...He has also promised more ground forces for Latvia, Naval forces for pacific. At what point is the CDS going to ask him to stop...or has he already...  

this is where you have to suss out Canada's defence strategy dating back to the Second World War

right back to William Lyon Mackenzie-King

Mackenzie-King knew that Canada's Achilles heel was boots on the ground

in the wake of the First World War, if Canada put boots on the ground and suffered associated attrition therein

national unity would be imperilled, the Confederation could tear itself apart

so in the Second World War, the Liberals opted for fire bombing the Germans into the stone age

and fighting the Battle of the Atlantic with the RCN Corvette fleet

keeping Army boots off the ground for as long as possible was the highest imperative

and this strategy persists to this day

if Ottawa is going to send forces, they send the RCAF with the RCN

they only deploy the Army as a last resort, and as few troops as possible at that

hence why you were only three rifle companies in the field in Kandahar

sending more infantry would not have changed the outcome of the war

it just would have resulted in more casualties

mind you, credit to Stephen Harper for quickly figuring this out

resulting in him withdrawing all boots on the ground at his earliest opportunity

in terms of Latvia, there is no need to send more troops

as that is not an operational fighting force, that is just a NATO Article V Tripwire

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2/1/2023 at 6:16 PM, Aristides said:

SAR isn't really a defence function so why should it be included in defence spending.

RCAF SAR is military grade

the SAR Techs are amongst the most elite members of the Forces

the SAR Techs can jump in by parachute, operate in the maritime role as divers, conduct mountain operations

they are in essence Commando Paramedics

RCAF SAR is equivalent to Special Operations Forces, in America they would be Pararescue Jumpers under AFSOC

only Joint Task Force Two Special Operations Assauters are more rigorously selected & trained than SAR Techs

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19 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

RCAF SAR is military grade

the SAR Techs are amongst the most elite members of the Forces

the SAR Techs can jump in by parachute, operate in the maritime role as divers, conduct mountain operations

they are in essence Commando Paramedics

RCAF SAR is equivalent to Special Operations Forces, in America they would be Pararescue Jumpers under AFSOC

only Joint Task Force Two Special Operations Assauters are more rigorously selected & trained than SAR Techs

I disagree, That would depend on what the definition of military grade was, yes they are in the military, they use military equipment to assist to accomplish their tasking.

But they are not in any terms Commandos, nor do they have a combat role, they do not perform combat search and rescue, that is not their role nor are they trained in that role or equipped for that role. There has been lots of talk of converting our SAR forces into a combat entity, but like anything in this country all talk, no action. 

Don't get me wrong i am not saying SAR training is not tough, i know lots of EX Royals that went this route and have told about just how tough training is, it requires more mental aspect than physical,  ...but i can think of 1/2 dozen army courses that would in terms of physical toughness kick SAR training ass, Recce, Sniper, Path finder, Jungle ops, CSOR, to name a few.

SAR has a wide verity of advanced course that are very tough both mentally and physically, but all of them are non combat related which adds a whole spectrum of of toughness to them. 

 

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3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I disagree, That would depend on what the definition of military grade was, yes they are in the military, they use military equipment to assist to accomplish their tasking.

But they are not in any terms Commandos, nor do they have a combat role, they do not perform combat search and rescue, that is not their role nor are they trained in that role or equipped for that role. There has been lots of talk of converting our SAR forces into a combat entity, but like anything in this country all talk, no action. 

Don't get me wrong i am not saying SAR training is not tough, i know lots of EX Royals that went this route and have told about just how tough training is, it requires more mental aspect than physical,  ...but i can think of 1/2 dozen army courses that would in terms of physical toughness kick SAR training ass, Recce, Sniper, Path finder, Jungle ops, CSOR, to name a few.

SAR has a wide verity of advanced course that are very tough both mentally and physically, but all of them are non combat related which adds a whole spectrum of of toughness to them.

I will defer to your greater expertise

but the SAR Techs I met at Trenton were ex-infantry paratroopers

I'm quite confident they could have engaged in combat as necessary

they were certainly up to 3 Commando standards in my view

I was a Recce Patrolman tho, and my course was taught by the Patrol Pathfinders

WO Ed "Chuck" Barnsley was my course Warrant : RIP <toasts>

and I would say Sar Tech would be a harder course, just on the medical aspects

I mean, they gotta do Para all the way up to Static Line Square Canopy

then they qualify as Divers, and Mountain Ops

all that on top of being a super Paramedic who can operate with no support in the bush

I worked on the MAJAID team, follow on for the SAR Techs,

and they seemed like super soldiers to me

and I got buddies who were JTF2 as well

my Section Commander on ISCC was original JTF2

and they were all pretty comparable in terms of being ultra fit

the main difference with JTF2 is the extreme precision in terms of breaching & shooting

in terms of the mental, the guys I know who passed the SOAC said it was all in the mind

just like any other course, you just have to want it more

more than a hundred men started my ISCC, only 14 passed, I was number 14

when they called Endex on the final day, tears of joy ran down my face

oh, and just so you know, all three guys I know who were JTF2 : came from the Militia

doocheemuss <flexes>

Edited by Dougie93
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4 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I will defer to your greater expertise

but the SAR Techs I met at Trenton were ex-infantry paratroopers

I'm quite confident they could have engaged in combat as necessary

they were certainly up to 3 Commando standards in my view

I was a Recce Patrolman tho, and my course was taught by the Patrol Pathfinders

WO Ed "Chuck" Barnsley was my course Warrant : RIP <toasts>

and I would say Sar Tech would be a harder course, just on the medical aspects

I mean, they gotta do Para all the way up to Static Line Square Canopy

then they qualify as Divers, and Mountain Ops

all that on top of being a super Paramedic who can operate with no support in the bush

I worked on the MAJAID team, follow on for the SAR Techs,

and they seemed like super soldiers to me

and I got buddies who were JTF2 as well

my Section Commander on ISCC was original JTF2

and they were all pretty comparable in terms of being ultra fit

the main difference with JTF2 is the extreme precision in terms of breaching & shooting

in terms of the mental, the guys I know who passed the SOAC said it was all in the mind

just like any other course, you just have to want it more

more than a hundred men started my ISCC, only 14 passed, I was number 14

when they called Endex on the final day, tears of joy ran down my face

oh, and just so you know, all three guys I know who were JTF2 : came from the Militia

doocheemuss <flexes>

Dougie, I'm no more qualified than you are, like i said many EX royals are SAR techs, but SAR training according to them the hardest part was the mental part, and all the medical shit you have to learn as you mentioned,... me if i was smart enough i would have gone the same route, 34 years in the Infantry and i did not come off with many useable skills, i can use in Civvie street SAR tech would have given me all of that.  

My Recce course was a massive bag drive, and it tested me in every way possible, belt feed co*k the entire time, with ruck sacks reaching up to 100 lbs just becasue they thought it was cool, ...in beautiful Gagetown in the hills... It did teach me i had physicals limits. And paid off in Afghanistan. Add the tactical portion and being sleep fu*ked, it adds a whole dimension to it...

My jump course i did early in the 80's, never had any issues, except at the lamplighter club in Edmonton with a couple air force guys...or at the hotel just off base, can't think of the name, use to be a bikers bar, part of the ritual of getting your wings getting into a fight and coming home. Never did go to the Airborne Regt , stayed a cherry jumper my whole career...

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Canadian Airforce can not shoot down a balloon, as they have no AIM 9X heat seeking missiles, they have had 35 of them on order for a couple of years now...No, we are good here people nothing to see just the Canadians in a hang glider patrolling our skys...

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17 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Canadian Airforce can not shoot down a balloon, as they have no AIM 9X heat seeking missiles, they have had 35 of them on order for a couple of years now...No, we are good here people nothing to see just the Canadians in a hang glider patrolling our skys...

Do we really want to be using a half-million-dollar missile to shoot down a balloon anyway? I get that the first Chinese one was enormous and up way above the fighters' operational ceiling. But the last three were down low enough to just fly at it and shoot. And they weren't so big that filling them full of holes would have let them float on forever.

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Well it Seems NATO is pushing hard to have all of it's members step up, they were looking at increasing the 2 % of GDP figure to 2.5, but are also looking at forcing members to meet the 2 % of GDP as a minimum. Canada is being given the hard stare , they are pointing at Canada and saying it is your move, time to step up or step off...It is about time...i say.

And if we decide to step off, becasue we are cheap, what does this mean over all, what is it ,we risk losing, and what are we going to gain if anything. And what does it mean to our other defensive agreements, like NORAD, 5 EYE's etc. 

Canada faces fresh pressure on military spending as NATO chief eyes hard target (msn.com)

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15 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Do we really want to be using a half-million-dollar missile to shoot down a balloon anyway? I get that the first Chinese one was enormous and up way above the fighters' operational ceiling. But the last three were down low enough to just fly at it and shoot. And they weren't so big that filling them full of holes would have let them float on forever.

I think that was already done, not sure if it was recently or before this incident. Anyways my point was they don't have any short range heat seeking missiles, i mean i is one thing to fly a 40 year old plane, but another when you don't have any missiles to shoot Anything down let alone a balloon, it just gets better and better as the days go by, we keep hearing how badly our Military state is, and we all just smile and grin... 

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