What evidence is there to support Canada being 'systemically racist'?

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

And people vote for that.  So people here clearly aren't Christian.  And yet you choose to live in this fountain of sin.

It makes one scratch their heads doesn't it ?

Yes, I was born here, educated here, worked here, and retired here.  There is no choice and the rest of the world is roughly the same or mostly worse.  But that doesn't stop me or anyone from pointing out the faults of Canada even though liberals don't like to hear it.

[TreeBeard]

5 hours ago, blackbird said:

a legal system that lets dangerous offenders and murderers back out on the street

Steven Pinker makes a compelling case that the world has never been as safe as it is now.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature
 

Canada, in terms of homicides per 1000 people, is trending down since the mid-70s when it peaked.  That doesn’t sound so bad, does it?  

 

[blackbird]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

And people vote for that.  So people here clearly aren't Christian.  And yet you choose to live in this fountain of sin.

It makes one scratch their heads doesn't it ?

The government continually proves they are totally immoral and incompetent. Just look at the Emergencies Act enquiry which is now finding the government failed at all levels.  That's ALL LEVELS.John Ivison: Emergencies Act inquiry uncovers government failure at every level (msn.com)

 

 

[TreeBeard]

22 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The government continually proves they are totally immoral and incompetent. Just look at the Emergencies Act enquiry which is now finding the government failed at all levels.  That's ALL LEVELS.John Ivison: Emergencies Act inquiry uncovers government failure at every level (msn.com)

 

 

The article seems to imply that the feds were justified in using the Act because of the failures in the city, the province and the RCMP responses to the “protest/occupation”.  
 

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

We'll it took years to move beyond systematic racism and certainly overlappef with systemic racism. The latter is the result of the former which we'll still be dealing with for decades/generations.

I'm still not buying that the things we did in the past had a devastating impact on the people whose parents and grandparents didn't live here until after it was all over anyway.

You might be able to make that case in the US towards Blacks, though even there it's fairly obvious the major social and economic failure of the Black community is due to fatherless families, and fatherless families were the exception until the late 1960s. 

[I am Groot]

On 10/16/2022 at 11:32 AM, Michael Hardner said:

1.  Well, I did work in advertising in a spell and I don't see it.  I think you are presuming that's the reason, but the people who generate the content for advertising are pretty young and likely bought in to what you would call 'woke' without pressure required.
2. Fair enough.  I'm the same way.
3. Perhaps not.  Noted.
4. I agree that it's suspicious.
5. I'm not sure but the stats are city wide.  I am pretty sure a black person walking in Forest Hill would get special attention, as I lived in that "hood" and calling the police once single time (about a bike theft) got a response in lightning-quick time.  They don't publish stats of response times by neighbourhood, hmmm wonder why.... 
6. This was essentially the thesis of an article in MacLean's a few years back: https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/
7. We reinstate the ideas that made democracy separate from monarchy: objectivity, honesty and devotion to a higher cause over loyalty.  Unfortunately the demise of religion has made this difficulty and so we have these populist trolls everywhere, rousting up their respective mobs.
8. The news also doesn't mention how "liberal" Chicago funds schooling by zones that keep the wealthy liberal neighbourhoods wealthy and the poor neighbourhoods poor as dirt.  Liberals are happy with that so-called "liberal" media but it's actually "neoliberal" if you catch my meaning.
9. Agreed.
10. Agreed again.  Poverty, right ?

I'm not in much dispute here. I don't have any inside information of how they spend their money in Chicago, but I'm pretty sure we don't do it that way in Canada. 

As to the cause of crime, or perhaps more importantly violent crime I go with those who say it's the destruction of the family unit and male parental authority in the Black community, and now in the indigenous communities in Canada. Many native reservations are festering social sores much like American inner cities and filled with too many young men who haven't been shown any discipline, and who are under the belief they have no economic future anyway so resort to crime.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, herbie said:

but that so unChristian!

It is nonetheless what Jesus would do.

[Michael Hardner]

27 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. As to the cause of crime, or perhaps more importantly violent crime I go with those who say it's the destruction of the family unit and male parental authority in the Black community, and now in the indigenous communities in Canada. 

2. Many native reservations are festering social sores much like American inner cities and filled with too many young men who haven't been shown any discipline, and who are under the belief they have no economic future anyway so resort to crime.

1. Well those are pretty recent effects.  Are you saying that crime rates are higher now because of that ?  I haven't heard that anything like that was established.
2. Hmmmm.... and is THAT recent ?

The conversation is drifting here.  It's not about systemic racism anymore but pervasive social problems past and present.  Maybe we can just jump off at this point...

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

I'm still not buying that the things we did in the past had a devastating impact on the people whose parents and grandparents didn't live here until after it was all over anyway.

I have friends my age who were raped in institutional settings by people our government hired and employed.

In any case it doesn't matter in the least what you buy or don't buy you still own the institutions in question and as such are liable for whatever accounting is mandated by law or thru negotiation for the things that were done in the past.

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I have friends my age who were raped in institutional settings by people our government hired and employed.

In any case it doesn't matter in the least what you buy or don't buy you still own the institutions in question and as such are liable for whatever accounting is mandated by law or thru negotiation for the things that were done in the past.

Well as I’ve said in the past, if you feel so strongly that our current generation of taxpayers, including recent immigrants, is responsible for injustices committed many decades ago, I think you should put your money where your mouth is and write a fat check.

I also know that it was self-proclaimed progressives like you who pushed for residential schools when they were founded.  Educating Indigenous for free was considered progressive at the time, so since now you are ignoring historical context and implicating yourself as a colonial oppressor, I’m good with you going out of pocket to make amends.  

[eyeball]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well as I’ve said in the past, if you feel so strongly that our current generation of taxpayers, including recent immigrants, is responsible for injustices committed many decades ago, I think you should put your money where your mouth is and write a fat check.

So do I. Immigrants basically agree to take on the liability when they move here.

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I also know that it was self-proclaimed progressives like you who pushed for residential schools when they were founded.  Educating Indigenous for free was considered progressive at the time, so since now you are ignoring historical context and implicating yourself as a colonial oppressor, I’m good with you going out of pocket to make amends.

Yeah and I suppose a conservative like you would have just shot them.

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

So do I. Immigrants basically agree to take on the liability when they move here.

Yeah and I suppose a conservative like you would have just shot them.

I think people are responsible for their own actions and I think people are people.  History is the story of conquerors being conquered.  I’m sure if I was a Huron in the mid-1600’s I’d fear the Mohawks.  Humanity chose the organized society with codified laws, money, farms, and eventually smart phones.  You can bitch about it and romanticize some “noble savage” pre-contact stereotype, but the first settlers lived pretty light on the land and the cultural exchanges in Canada were generally positive except for the disease brought from Europe.  The big colonial questions of what to do about the “Indian problem” came later after 100’s of thousands of immigrants came.  Guess what?  They’re still coming, and based on your politics, I’m sure you support high immigration.  Colonialism never sleeps and you wouldn’t have it any other way.  

Edited October 18, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Army Guy]

19 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Steven Pinker makes a compelling case that the world has never been as safe as it is now.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature
 

Canada, in terms of homicides per 1000 people, is trending down since the mid-70s when it peaked.  That doesn’t sound so bad, does it?  

 

Here is another compelling case, Russian and Ukraine conflict has US and Russia talking about nuclear warfare... Russian insiders are also talking about Putin is being backed into a corner and may use nuclear warfare to save face... still think the world is safer.

A quick google search provides a much different slant to your safer theory... in fact it provides the exact opposite. more than double the number of homicides.

CANADIAN HOMICIDE RATES: A COMPARISON OF TWO DATA SOURCES - JustResearch Edition no. 9 (justice.gc.ca)

In the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, physical distancing and stay-at-home orders, overall police-reported crime has decreased in 2020. In contrast, police reported 743 homicides in 2020, an increase of 56 homicides over the previous year, and the highest number since 1991. This represents a 7% increase in the homicide rate from 1.83 homicides per 100,000 population in 2019 to 1.95 in 2020, which is the highest rate since 2005.

Homicide in Canada, 2020 (statcan.gc.ca)

[Zeitgeist]

42 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Here is another compelling case, Russian and Ukraine conflict has US and Russia talking about nuclear warfare... Russian insiders are also talking about Putin is being backed into a corner and may use nuclear warfare to save face... still think the world is safer.

A quick google search provides a much different slant to your safer theory... in fact it provides the exact opposite. more than double the number of homicides.

CANADIAN HOMICIDE RATES: A COMPARISON OF TWO DATA SOURCES - JustResearch Edition no. 9 (justice.gc.ca)

In the wake of the COVID-19 pandemic, physical distancing and stay-at-home orders, overall police-reported crime has decreased in 2020. In contrast, police reported 743 homicides in 2020, an increase of 56 homicides over the previous year, and the highest number since 1991. This represents a 7% increase in the homicide rate from 1.83 homicides per 100,000 population in 2019 to 1.95 in 2020, which is the highest rate since 2005.

Homicide in Canada, 2020 (statcan.gc.ca)

Yet another consequence of the privations of lockdowns, mandates, and restrictions.  The non-Covid suffering and long term consequences of these privations are heavy, probably heavier than what we would have suffered overall in a less restrictive society.  “All- cause deaths” were substantially higher too, according to the insurance industry.  We need to ensure that freedoms and rights aren’t so easily removed and that there are sunset clauses that make privations as temporary as possible.  I’m dreading how the next “crisis” will be used to subjugate populations.  We have good reasons to be concerned.  Clearly even your right to protest isn’t protected.

Edited October 18, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[blackbird]

20 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Steven Pinker makes a compelling case that the world has never been as safe as it is now.  
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature
 

Canada, in terms of homicides per 1000 people, is trending down since the mid-70s when it peaked.  That doesn’t sound so bad, does it?  

 

The statistics Canada wide do not deal with the problem of increasing daily assaults, break-ins in businesses, and other daily crimes in cities across B.C.  It has been on the news daily. One reason they might not be in the national statistics is because the courts continually release offenders after the police arrest them.  They are not being prosecuted and sentenced to prison.  That is the problem and they would not be included in the statistics if they are not prosecuted and sentenced.  The statistics are not giving the true story of what is going on in B.C.

Repeated stabbings and assaults in Vancouver, Victoria, and other towns in B.C.  The people are getting tired of the daily reports of these crimes and just voted out Mayor Stewart Kennedy in Vancouver and voted for a tougher on crime mayor, Ken Sims.   He plans to hire 100 more police officers and take other measures as required.  We will see if this helps Vancouver because it is a real mess now.  But he will be fighting an uphill battle if the courts just keep releasing offenders onto the streets and if the BC NDP does not take action to stop the catch and release program.  The B.C. NDP is paralyzed and seems unable to deal with it.  The opposition party BC Liberal leader says this situation is going to end.  Glad we have some politiicians in B.C. who see the problem and are determined to do something about it.

Edited October 18, 2022 by blackbird

[I am Groot]

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Well those are pretty recent effects.  Are you saying that crime rates are higher now because of that ?  I haven't heard that anything like that was established.

The change in single parent families in the black community has been enormous since 1960. It's rise has been in concert with the rise of violence in that community. I've seen nothing about native reservations but heresy because we don't really study things racially here.  But this popped up in a search. It's ten years old but, I think, revealing. It's also revealing that its ten years old and nothing newer seems to be easily found.

I think it's this which is causing both the criminality and the lower economic success in these community, rather than 'systemic racism' which is being reflexively blamed.

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

The conversation is drifting here.  It's not about systemic racism anymore but pervasive social problems past and present.  Maybe we can just jump off at this point...

I disagree. If you take the position that there is no real systemic racism, as I have, then you need to come up with other ideas as to the cause of such different outcomes between communities. Most of that difference is due to behaviour caused by culture. The Asians (and Jews) do better than the general white community. Why? Because they don't have children until they're married, stay married, or at least, the fathers stay in their children's lives more, and the parents insist on both discipline, respect and hard work at school for their kids greater than any other communities. Ask the schools who the discipline problems are. It's not the Asian kids. It's not the Jews.

But western society seems to shy away from confronting communities which are variously labelled as 'troubled', 'challenged', 'at risk', etc. Suggesting any of their problems are due to their own behaviour is likened to 'blaming the victim'. Of course, that suggests they ARE, in fact, victims, which robs them of responsibility both for what is happening and for doing something about it. Which some in those communities apparently prefer.

Edited October 18, 2022 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

21 hours ago, eyeball said:

I have friends my age who were raped in institutional settings by people our government hired and employed.

And that never happened in white schools, regular schools, boarding schools, never happened to kids in the custody of the childrens' aid societies. Never happened in churches or boy scout outings.

Never happened in their own homes.

21 hours ago, eyeball said:

In any case it doesn't matter in the least what you buy or don't buy you still own the institutions in question and as such are liable for whatever accounting is mandated by law or thru negotiation for the things that were done in the past.

And you think that means giving preferential treatment to an immigrant kid because his or her skin is black or brown?

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

And that never happened in white schools, regular schools, boarding schools, never happened to kids in the custody of the childrens' aid societies. Never happened in churches or boy scout outings.

Never happened in their own homes.

.And you think that means giving preferential treatment to an immigrant kid because his or her skin is black or brown?

If you truly believe stuff 'never happened' it suggests you might need some sort of treatment.

White schools? What are those?

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

If you truly believe stuff 'never happened' it suggests you might need some sort of treatment.

White schools? What are those?

You’re either pretending to be stupid or you really are ignorant.

Groot is making the irrefutable point that abuse knows no racial or ethnic bounds, even if for periods of time it was more prevalent in the treatment of members of some groups than others.

My mother (white) can recount endless episodes from her school days of kids being shamed and hit by adults.  In many cases then it was considered normal discipline.  This is the problem of judging the people of yesterday with the lenses of today.

Applying evidence of historic wrongdoing (by today’s standards) to people coming to Canada today who face no legal or policy discrimination, and simply assuming they are victims in need of assistance, as though they are incompetent, is paternalistic and actually racist.

Every person is different and every situation is unique.  Lumping people together and making assumptions about their level of oppression or victimhood based on superficial traits like skin colour is simply another iteration of racist oversimplified categorization.

I know it’s often done today with the intent of helping people, but it causes new forms of oppression.  The founders of residential schools genuinely thought they were helping, and there was good work and bad, but don’t kid yourself, our generation will be judged as ignorant and unjust by future generations.

That’s why I’m circumspect about government programs designed to help certain groups.  New inequities are created and getting it wrong is almost inevitable.

In the end, you are what you create, not what is handed to you, even though we’re all handed something and we try to give the less fortunate a leg up because it’s good to help.  

[eyeball]

29 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re either pretending to be stupid or you really are ignorant.

Oh, maybe you know what a white school is.

[Michael Hardner]

11 hours ago, I am Groot said:

1. The change in single parent families in the black community has been enormous since 1960. It's rise has been in concert with the rise of violence in that community.

2. I've seen nothing about native reservations but heresy because we don't really study things racially here.  But this popped up in a search. It's ten years old but, I think, revealing. It's also revealing that its ten years old and nothing newer seems to be easily found.

3. I think it's this which is causing both the criminality and the lower economic success in these community, rather than 'systemic racism' which is being reflexively blamed.

4. I disagree. If you take the position that there is no real systemic racism, as I have, then you need to come up with other ideas as to the cause of such different outcomes between communities.

5. Most of that difference is due to behaviour caused by culture.dThe Asians (and Jews) do better than the general white community. Why? Because they don't have children until they're married, stay married, or at least, the fathers stay in their children's lives more, and the parents insist on both discipline, respect and hard work at school for their kids greater than any other communities. Ask the schools who the discipline problems are. It's not the Asian kids. It's not the Jews.

6. But western society seems to shy away from confronting communities which are variously labelled as 'troubled', 'challenged', 'at risk', etc. Suggesting any of their problems are due to their own behaviour is likened to 'blaming the victim'. Of course, that suggests they ARE, in fact, victims, which robs them of responsibility both for what is happening and for doing something about it. Which some in those communities apparently prefer.

1. 2. Again - we are now talking about general social problems rather than where systemic problems exist.  I invite you to start a new thread on that.  There are some difficult aspects of investigating problems that are so broad in nature but let's chat in that thread ok ?  I suspect there are studies that look at things "racially"... a documentary is ok but you need a hard study IMO.  And again, it's *difficult*... meaning it's hard work, sometimes tedious to wade through.

3.  I'm sure there are many causes.

4. 5. 6.  "Taking the position" could only come after study.  As I pointed out, it's at least arguable that there is some systemic racism.   In terms of looking at broader social problems, again that's a full topic for a different thread and I don't doubt there are already some out here on MLW.  I don't accept that one culture looking at another and coming up with cultural 'causes' for their problems is effective or worthwhile because the end result is status quo.  If you embark on an inquiry as to causes for problems, you should ask yourself why you are doing that ?  If the answer is "to help" then I'm all ears.  Other thread....
 

[I am Groot]

13 hours ago, eyeball said:

If you truly believe stuff 'never happened' it suggests you might need some sort of treatment.

If you truly can't recognize such obvious sarcasm you might consider treatment yourself.

13 hours ago, eyeball said:

White schools? What are those?

The schools 'indians' weren't sent to.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

If you truly can't recognize such obvious sarcasm you might consider treatment yourself.

Don't worry the sarcasm comes through loud and clear along with contempt and disgust.

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

Don't worry the sarcasm comes through loud and clear along with contempt and disgust.

And yet you chose to pretend you didn't recognize it rather than deal with the point I made.

We cherish children, and have for our lifetimes. But back in the day, I won't say people didn't love their kids because they did. But it was very much 'spare the rod, spoil the child', and kids routinely got the hell beaten out of them. Nor did anyone believe them if they talked about being molested. And it was that way right through the 1970s no matter what the race of the child or family. Nobody seemed to believe stuff like that happened. We have stories of kids telling the police and getting lectured about lying and then being brought home to be spanked. In the 1970s and 1980s. 

There was nothing unique about children being abused in residential schools. I'm absolutely sure it happened in orphanages, in juvenile detention centres, and even in boarding schools for comparatively well-off children. Not to mention at day schools, churches, etc. I'm not surprised some children were beaten/molested there. I'd have been astonished if they hadn't been.

Edited October 19, 2022 by I am Groot

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, I am Groot said:

And yet you chose to pretend you didn't recognize it rather than deal with the point I made.

Note where I said if you believe your own tripe.  I acknowledge the back-peddling in your tone now but you've nonetheless illustrated how it is that systemic racism and colonialism still persists to this day - it's exactly why I said the best evidence of its existence is in the attitude of bemused disgust you folks typically bring to issues that smack of social justice.  While you may think you're just being sarcastic with someone you don't particularly like on the internet to do so you've basically appropriated and belittled the suffering of people to do so.  By the same token you see Zeitgeist conflating centuries old history with people today as if doing so makes the present seem as distant.  It's like the old question, would you debase yourself like this around the Thanksgiving table to make the same point?  I suspect judges and negotiators stopped putting up with it eons ago. 

The only point I've made is that we are in fact liable for abuses at the hands of governments and institutions that people have proven happened to them in court and through negotiation.  I suspect you understand this on some level but choose to make an issue of it anyway.  Rinse and repeat enough and it does add up like gunk that fouls up a mechanism and slows it down.

Good job, on some level you must be proud of yourself.