Boges Posted September 6, 2022 Report Posted September 6, 2022 (edited) Two major TV shows have premiered in the past month. 1) House of the Dragon: HBO's prequel to the wildly popular popular Game of Thrones. And based on a 2018 Faux History text of the of the Targaryen family. 2) Rings of Power: Amazon's Series about the Second Age of Middle Earth. Based on some scant indexes from the Lord of the Rings Books. Both have been accused of "wokeness" by casting racialized minorities in prominent roles. https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2022/08/house-of-the-dragons-corlys-velaryon-speaks-out-about-racist-comments.html Quote “I didn’t realize [the casting] was a big deal until I was racially abused on social media. Yeah, that shit happened. I was just like, ‘Oh wow,’ and then I thought: ‘OK, so this means a lot to some people, but I can’t allow that to bother me.” In a recent interview with Men’s Health, the actor touched on the subject again. “It seems to be very hard for people to swallow. They are happy with a dragon flying. They’re happy with white hair and violet-colored eyes, but a rich Black guy? That’s beyond the pale.” https://www.thewrap.com/lord-of-the-rings-amazon-racist-backlash-explained/ Quote The casting of non-white actors as elves and dwarves rankled a few fans when it was first announced, and now that the show is here, Amazon has taken the step of suspending user reviews for the first 72 hours to prevent those angry about the racially diverse cast from “review bombing” the series. Medieval Fantasy "usually" revolves around feudalism the plight of Europeans in the middle ages, but with Magic inserted into it for lulz. In Game of Thrones lore, particularly the debates of feudal succession is the main narrative around all major storylines. But these aren't historic texts and HBO and Amazon are looking to reach a broad audience. So casting a Black dwarf, may initially seem weird, it allows for other groups to be represented in this wildly popular stories. It's kind of like adapting Romeo and Juliette into a tale of Italian and Puerto Rican gangs in the Westside Story. As Steve Toussaint points out in the first linked story. These are stories with Dragons, where is there a requirement for racial consistency? In the Lord of the Rings example. The whole premise of the story is to show groups of different "races" joining forces to defeat a common evil. But they all must be white because Tolkien grew up in the white-washed UK countryside which had very little racial diversity at the time? Tolkien was a staunch opponent of the racism of Hitler at the time. I circle back to how often white europeans are cast in roles that weren't historical made for them. They do this to appeal to the largely White North American crowd. If film-makers were being historically accurate, no depiction of Jesus would ever have him white, or speaking English. Edited September 6, 2022 by Boges 2 Quote
dialamah Posted September 6, 2022 Report Posted September 6, 2022 It's like these objectors are surprised by the fact of POC in the world. They deny systemic racism, then complain when their expected all-white cast has a few POC included. 1 Quote
Michael Hardner Posted September 6, 2022 Report Posted September 6, 2022 Make no mistake: the people who produce these things are motivated by return on investment, period. If it was profitable to have the heroes burning crosses, they would do so. As such, people who complain about "wokeness" are really just complaining that their worldview is ostracized and treated as abhorrent by the mushy middle. Which confuses me, because they usually LOVE to be shocking and edgy... 2 Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
TreeBeard Posted September 6, 2022 Report Posted September 6, 2022 (edited) If woke means trying to target a larger audience to make more money, then I guess the answer is yes? Edited September 6, 2022 by TreeBeard 1 Quote
herbie Posted September 6, 2022 Report Posted September 6, 2022 They're still whining that the TV woke made them take Amos 'N' Andy off the air in 1953 Quote
I am Groot Posted September 6, 2022 Report Posted September 6, 2022 It isn't fantasy that's woke. It's the moviemakers. In particular, we've heard disparaging remarks from the guy who is behind the new dragon series about how it's not going to be just a "a bunch of white guys running around with swords'. The LOTR series is from Amazon and Jeff Bezos is as woke as they come. The first episode introduced a black elf - okay, but then a romance with a white human. The second episode introduced the dwarves, and the prince and princes are also interracial, this time the wife being black. I don't have a problem with inserting black elves and dwarves but honestly I think they're trying too hard. Amazon's last disastrous foray into fantasy was a series based on Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. They completely ruined it due to woke. Keeping it as short as possible, the theory behind that is that there is a male and a female side to the one power. The male side was tainted by the dark lord long ago so any man who tries to use it goes mad. The Dragon will be born to confront the dark lord as he escapes prison. That's the background. It's behind the whole story. But Amazon wanted to play with the idea the dragon might be a female. So they didn't explain the lore at all. Who is this dragon? They didn't really explain it very well. Why is he so dangerous? Never mentioned. So in the first book a handful of young people are found in a long, isolated farm village that 'hasn't seen a tax farmer or soldier in seven generations". Yet three of the five are black. Which is just frankly strange. Other characters are now gay or lesbian, and all the male characters are played down, while the female characters are enhanced. Whenever fighting has to be done, it's the girls who do it. The guys are weak and whiny. Including the guy who is to be the dragon. Everything about this adaptation was totally changed for wokeness. And not for the better. Quote
Infidel Dog Posted September 6, 2022 Report Posted September 6, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, herbie said: They're still whining that the TV woke made them take Amos 'N' Andy off the air in 1953 Not sure who "They" is here but it doesn't bother me. Losing Walt Disney's Song of the South is not much of a Zip it dee doo dah though. Not happy that they're trying to cancel Huckleberry Finn, Gone with the Wind and To Kill a Mockingbird either. Edited September 6, 2022 by Infidel Dog Quote
Infidel Dog Posted September 6, 2022 Report Posted September 6, 2022 Speaking as a guy who unlike most of the above actually is a Fantasy fan, the first episode of House of the Dragons surprised me. Not bad. I'm waiting a few weeks so I can watch a bunch in one clump. So far the woke thing is a non-issure with this one. There's a black guy at the council table. Feels a little strange but we knew the world watched over by the Targaryen's was multi racial from Game of Thrones. House of the Dragon has the Targaryen's in Power. I can't bring myself to waste time on Rings of Power. Too much a fan of Tolkien's Euro fantasy mythos to watch it turned into something else. That doesn't interest me. The story doesn't sound that interesting from the reviews I've read either. They've turned Galadriel into a Mary Sue. That's kind of Sacrilegious to a Tolkien fan. It's guaranteed to suck because whoever wrote it that way doesn't get what made LOTR work. At present I won't waste my time looking to piss myself off watching such crap. Quote
I am Groot Posted September 6, 2022 Report Posted September 6, 2022 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said: Speaking as a guy who unlike most of the above actually is a Fantasy fan, the first episode of House of the Dragons surprised me. Not bad. I'm waiting a few weeks so I can watch a bunch in one clump. So far the woke thing is a non-issure with this one. There's a black guy at the council table. Feels a little strange but we knew the world watched over by the Targaryen's was multi racial from Game of Thrones. House of the Dragon has the Targaryen's in Power. One of the guys I saw complaining about this online pointed out that the whole thing about the Targaryans is their fixation on race, on bloodlines. They were so obsessed with it they even married their own cousins and siblings. So how the hell is there a black Targaryan?? 57 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said: I can't bring myself to waste time on Rings of Power. Too much a fan of Tolkien's Euro fantasy mythos to watch it turned into something else. That doesn't interest me. The story doesn't sound that interesting from the reviews I've read either. They've turned Galadriel into a Mary Sue. That's kind of Sacrilegious to a Tolkien fan. It's guaranteed to suck because whoever wrote it that way doesn't get what made LOTR work. At present I won't waste my time looking to piss myself off watching such crap. I watched the first two. They were decent. The writing and cinematography are both far better than what amazon did to the Wheel of Time. I don't really care about the interracial couples or that Galadriel is such a perfect character. Actually, she comes across as more than a bit obsessed for most of the first two shows. Maybe even nuts, given she jumped out of a ship and started swimming home. Across an ocean! WTH!? It is, so far, though, following the same gender path as WoT did. Ie, the women are the smart, brave, tough ones. The men are just... hapless, wrongheaded, and annoyances, for the most part. Edited September 6, 2022 by I am Groot Quote
I am Groot Posted September 6, 2022 Report Posted September 6, 2022 9 hours ago, Boges said: In the Lord of the Rings example. The whole premise of the story is to show groups of different "races" joining forces to defeat a common evil. But they all must be white because Tolkien grew up in the white-washed UK countryside which had very little racial diversity at the time? I think you miss the point. Racial uniformity was the way things were everywhere on earth until we developed the means of moving long distances in short periods of time. In an era where it would take months or even years to get from one land to another, almost no one travelled those distances. Sailors went the furthest, but when they arrived at another land they had neither the funding nor the language skills to decide to jump ship and stay. And why would they anyway? Everything and everyone they knew was back home. Quote
Infidel Dog Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 1 hour ago, I am Groot said: One of the guys I saw complaining about this online pointed out that the whole thing about the Targaryans is their fixation on race, on bloodlines. They were so obsessed with it they even married their own cousins and siblings. So how the hell is there a black Targaryan?? But Corlys isn't a Targaryen. He's married to one. Wasn't he originally conceived as some sort of sea pirate or something? Quote
Infidel Dog Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 And remember Aegon Targaryen married Lyanna Stark to have Jon Snow. Quote
Infidel Dog Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 Jeremy from The Quartering gives us what critics of Rings of Power (including Elon Musk) are actually saying about it: Only a 39% fan rating at Rotten Tomatoes BTW. Quote
I am Groot Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 1 hour ago, Infidel Dog said: But Corlys isn't a Targaryen. He's married to one. Wasn't he originally conceived as some sort of sea pirate or something? But why would they ever let him marry her? Quote
I am Groot Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 48 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said: And remember Aegon Targaryen married Lyanna Stark to have Jon Snow. Going completely against his family's wishes and doing it in secret, if I recall correctly. Quote
Infidel Dog Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 1 hour ago, I am Groot said: Going completely against his family's wishes and doing it in secret, if I recall correctly. It's considerable more complicated than that. Try this one: https://gameofthrones.fandom.com/wiki/Lyanna_Stark Quote
Infidel Dog Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 Although, wait... With more study they tell me the reason Rhaegar was married to Elia Martel at the time he took off with Lyanna was his father Aegon approved on the grounds there was a distant connection to the royal line. Then again Aegon was nuts. So I really don't know but I do know the marriage between Corlyss and Rhaenys is canon and there is no bloodline connection. Although before the TV series an artist painted him like this: Quote
Infidel Dog Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 (edited) Unlike the Lord of the Rings though there are canonic black people available to the mythology. Would a Targaryen accept a black into the family though? That would take some fanwanking to accept that, I must admit. Still...I can let it slip if the rest works. I'm easier going after forgiving a black Heimdall guarding the rainbow bridge of Asgard in the Thor movies even though the original Heimdall was considered the whitest of white. I'm getting like Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof. "On the one hand there's this, but on the other hand..." But then when it comes to the last daughter wanting to marry a non-jew he goes, "No. There is no other hand." That's where I am with this Ring of Power, Amazon nonsense. There is no other hand. Edited September 7, 2022 by Infidel Dog Quote
Moonlight Graham Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 Some of it is ideology, some of it is PR and capitalism. A hollywood-type production wants to appeal to many people worldwide, so they stick those faces in their tv/films to appeal to them. It also doesn't want the bad PR of being accused of being racist for not having X many POC (#OscarsSoWhite). Old white people also don't watch streaming. Given that a lot of people, mostly white men, are very annoyed with the woke stuff in tv/film and the companies keep doing it I have to think at this point they feel the wrath of them is less damaging than the gains of appealing to a wider audience. Quote "All generalizations are false, including this one." - Mark Twain Partisanship is a disease of the intellect.
Yzermandius19 Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 (edited) the problem with fantasy genre TV shows is that they suck Game of Thrones was a rare exception expecting greatness from fantasy TV is just going to lead to disappointment it's best not to get one's hopes up and then be pleasantly surprised if it's any good most spinoffs and prequels suck too so that's a triple whammy of red flags long before you get to woke if you had high expectations going in you should know better Edited September 7, 2022 by Yzermandius19 Quote
Boges Posted September 7, 2022 Author Report Posted September 7, 2022 10 hours ago, I am Groot said: But why would they ever let him marry her? Because they're the richest house in Westeros. Same reason Robert Baratheon married a Lannister who was sexing her twin brother. 1 Quote
Boges Posted September 7, 2022 Author Report Posted September 7, 2022 (edited) 17 hours ago, Infidel Dog said: I can't bring myself to waste time on Rings of Power. Too much a fan of Tolkien's Euro fantasy mythos to watch it turned into something else. That doesn't interest me. The story doesn't sound that interesting from the reviews I've read either. They've turned Galadriel into a Mary Sue. That's kind of Sacrilegious to a Tolkien fan. It's guaranteed to suck because whoever wrote it that way doesn't get what made LOTR work. At present I won't waste my time looking to piss myself off watching such crap. Dunno, being immortal is already pretty Mary Sue territory already dontcha think? What about the skin-colour of Harfoots, Elves and Dwarves make LOTR's work? Do you also oppose such white-washing as making the The Ancient One in Dr. Strange a White woman? I've read that Giancarlo Esposito of Breaking Bad, Mandalorian and the Boys may become the MCU's Professor X. I can imagine how many kittens Fanboys will want to punch over that. Edited September 7, 2022 by Boges 1 Quote
Boges Posted September 7, 2022 Author Report Posted September 7, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Infidel Dog said: Although, wait... With more study they tell me the reason Rhaegar was married to Elia Martel at the time he took off with Lyanna was his father Aegon approved on the grounds there was a distant connection to the royal line. Then again Aegon was nuts. So I really don't know but I do know the marriage between Corlyss and Rhaenys is canon and there is no bloodline connection. Although before the TV series an artist painted him like this: And in the source material, Tyrion Lannister was to have his nose cut off in the battle of Blackwater. Edited September 7, 2022 by Boges 1 Quote
Infidel Dog Posted September 7, 2022 Report Posted September 7, 2022 3 hours ago, Boges said: Dunno, being immortal is already pretty Mary Sue territory already dontcha think? I imagine you read or at least saw LotR. Do you remember the part where Frodo offered Galadriel the ring? She wants it The way she reacts tells us immediately how the ring will corrupt her. She goes dark. She fights back the urge to take the ring. She knows the ring's power will corrupt her and bring destruction to all around her. That's not a Mary Sue. A Mary Sue might behave more like all of a sudden and against any known canon be presented in a say a prequel as not an Elvin sorceress queen but this unstoppable warrior princess of her youth who climbs up mountains stabbing her sword in the rocks and is never in any real danger or offering cause for concern. A Mary Sue is bad writing. Galadriel in LotR was good writing. See the difference? Quote
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