WestCanMan Posted November 8, 2022 Report Share Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, Hodad said: This isn't really a debate as much as you desperately denying plainly stated facts, but if it were a debate the question would be the efficacy of the vaccines. And now you've got yourself so turned around that you are claiming that stats that speak clearly and directly to the efficacy of the vaccine are "weak and stupid." lol I never said I was debating you, Ive just explained the easiest things to you over and over without making much progress. Now I know how it feels to teach simple fractions to the short bus class. Yes, the stats that you're trying to quote are "weak and stupid. Tell me, which one of these injections is more effective? Vax 1) In a group of 100,000 people, there were 30,000 cases in the hospital and 100 died. Vax 2) In an identical group of 100,000 people, there were 8,000 cases in the hospital and 100 died. Placebo Group) 100,000 people, identical to the other two groups, 15,000 cases in the hospital and 100 died. Perfesser Hobab: "That's easy, vax #1, because they had a higher survival rate after hospitalization!!!" Me: "I'd rather stay out of the hospital if I had my druthers. Regardless of which injection I chose, the chance of survival seems really similar though, so I guess I'd rather not take an injection." Perfesser Hobab: "OMG YOU'RE SO TURNED AROUND! STOP TRYING DESPERATELY TO DENY PLAINLY STATED FACTS!" Me: "My advice to you is skip the injections and just take some valium." Quote And now, after quoting PHAC statistics for 2 weeks and dozens of posts, when you can plainly see that they disagree with you, you say that nobody can really know anything. Hand-waving FTL! We know who is most at risk. It's not hard. Simple age stratification is hugely effective because other risk factors correlate well. BUT AGAIN, even if you perform zero standardization the numbers greatly favor vaccination. Any given individual who contracts covid is less likely to go to the hospital and dramatically less likely to die if they have been vaccinated. Oh, wonderful. I guess that means that if we vaccinated 99% of the old people, who already survived 2020 and the first half of 2021 unvaxed, we should have far less covid deaths in 2022. Wait, we tried that exact thing and it didn't work even a little, itty bitty, teeny tiny bit. Perfesser Hobab: "Yes it did, and science confirmed it. The simple fact is that you can have the exact same number of deaths in that group after vaxing as they experienced the year before, and the vaccine could still be considered to be performing perfectly well, as long as more people got infected but then had a full recovery." Me: "So let me get this straight: the vaccine doesn't have to prevent a single death, and it can still be considered to be performing perfectly? It just has to allow more people to get sick, and then theoretically save a bunch of them, while arriving at the exact same death count?" Perfesser Hobab: "Yes. The measure of a vaccine isn't 'whether or not it lowers the overall number of deaths', it's 'how many people have to be hospitalized to arrive at the same death count." Me: "OK, so if I get the vax it will increase my likelihood of hospitalization, but then I will have the exact same chance of dying in the end, and that means it works?" Perfesser Hobab: "Yes. Exactly. In order to know that a vaccine is working, the people who receive it have to get really sick and then fight off the infection." Me: "Right. So, by your logic, we don't even know if the polio vaccine works then, because the people who took it never got sick enough to go to the hospital and then recover?" Perfesser Hobab: " Exactly. It could just be that everyone who was vaccinated for polio just never came in contact with it, just like if you carried a rabbit's foot. There's a really good chance that everyone who took the polio vaccine just got really lucky and the virus went around them." Me: "I'm pretty sure that's not science. I just can't help thinking that vaccinating 99% of the most vulnerable people in our country should have had at least some effect on the death toll. Otherwise what was the whole point of forcing people to take it?" Quote You imagine that the population over time is a control group, but it is assuredly not. It's absolutely uncontrolled. There are new variants arising, educational changes, behavioral changes etc. But what we do know is this: The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. So, the vaccine would really really work better than natural immunity if the goddamn virus would just stand still? Are there other "if...dog...rabbit vaccines" that are considered to be a success? Quote No, we cannot agree to that [that the overall death count should have dropped]. It would be great if the total number of deaths dropped, but that's not a measure of vaccine efficacy. I think I saw that above in my own post somewhere. Weird. Quote It doesn't account for risk. Unvaxed people faced the same risk, and died in the exact same proportion. The exact same people that vaccinated and then died in 2022 had faced the risk of covid in 2020 and the 2021 flu season unvaccinated and survived. In general, the whole population of Canada faced covid unvaxed for the 6 month period from Dec 14 2020 to July 14 2021 and experienced the same death toll as we did after 85% vaccination from Dec 14 2021 to July 14 2022. Exact same people, same old covid, exact same time period, mass-vaccinations which reduce death by 80% (sometimes of them forced vaccinations), exact same result. Account for that. Quote No, they DO NOT end up dying at the exact same rate as if they were wearing tinfoil hats. That is the whole damn point. Despite having the risk distribution entirely stacked against them, they fare MUCH better than the unvaccinated. What's the difference between being unvaxed and wearing a tinfoil hat? I thought they'd fare the same against covid... Why do unvaxed people keep having the same outcomes as vaxed people, but people with tinfoil hats wouldn't? Quote Everyone should care about the number of deaths. I do, but you and science seem to care more about 'how many infections it takes to arrive at the exact same death total'. You're saying "Eureka! It works!" while the exact same number of people are in mourning year after year. I get that you feel like the vaccine is working, and that forcing people to take it is a blessing for them, but can you understand if other people feel like you're pissing in their face and trying to tell them that it's raining? Edited November 8, 2022 by WestCanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebound Posted November 8, 2022 Report Share Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) On 11/6/2022 at 6:55 PM, WestCanMan said: Hilarious that Rebound and Beave clicked "like" on that post. I actually just took a screenshot of your disinformation there to save it for posterity because it's just insane that you could even find such blatant disinformation. "4.5% of deaths from quadruple vaxers" lol. That means 4.5% of all the deaths, vaxed and unvaxed combined, since Dec 14th 2020, 1.5 years before anyone even got the 4th dose. You sure don't get that impression from their propaganda though. It's an absolute farce that our own gov't (IE - taxpayer funded, not "property of JT") health services would post such a blatant attempt at disinformation. You’ve never taken any kind of basic mathematical statistics class, have you? Even so, no matter how you try to twist the data, you will ALWAYS reach the conclusion that death rates are higher among the unvaccinated, and that is because the vaccines work. I mean… you think that, because 4.5% of deaths is among the quad-vaccinated, it somehow proves the vaccine doesn’t work? Uh… yes, except for the remaining 95.5% of deaths. Edited November 8, 2022 by Rebound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted November 8, 2022 Report Share Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, Rebound said: You’ve never taken any kind of basic mathematical statistics class, have you? Even so, no matter how you try to twist the data, you will ALWAYS reach the conclusion that death rates are higher among the unvaccinated, and that is because the vaccines work. I mean… you think that, because 4.5% of deaths is among the quad-vaccinated, it somehow proves the vaccine doesn’t work? Uh… yes, except for the remaining 95.5% of deaths. OMG you're stupid. Yes, 95.5% of the deaths have been among the single-vaxed, dbl-vaxed, triple vaxed, and unvaxed. Know what else? 38M Canadians were unvaxed for 1/2 a month from Dec 14-31st 2020 (same as 19 for 1 month). 38M of us were unvaxed for Jan 2021. 35M in Feb. 30M in Mar. 28M in Apr. Then 19M, 16M, 11M, 9M, 7M, and 6M unvaxed Canadians for the last 12 months. Altogether that's 279M months of exposure to covid. Flu season numbers? 87 million months of exposure during the first flu season with covid (Dec 2020 thru Feb 2021) , 24M during the second (Nov 2021 thru Feb 2022). 111M months. By contrast, 4xers only started to exist in Apr. Maybe 0.5M that month. 2M in May, etc, to a grand total of 5M in the last month of the time frame we're talking about (ended Sept 25 2022). So 4xers were exposed to about 18M months of covid. 0 months of flu season. 279 million months of exposure vs 18 million months. But only 10x as many deaths. Hmmmmm. Here's the important part though, because the majority of deaths happen during flu season each year.. 111 million months of exposure during flu season vs 0 days of exposure during flu season. Only 10x as many? That's quite unrealistic. Let's scrap all that though, and just focus on the elderly unvaxed people's exposure to covid during the first flu season vs the total exposure for the 4xers. There are 10M Canadians over 60. By the end of flu season there were 3M people vaxed, let's pretend they were all over 60 (99% of them theoretically were seniors), so we started with 10M unvaxed elderly, 8.5M, and ended with 7M in Feb. That's 25.5 million months of exposure to covid during the first flu season alone, vs 19 million months of exposure during summer when all of the 4xers. Here's what the seasonal death toll looks like with covid. Look at the months of Nov thru Feb, and tell me how many people die in flu season vs May thru Sept? There were about 1,000 people who died in each reporting period in Nov thru Jan of the first flu season there and 150/mo on average for May thru Sept. About 7x as many. Let's put it down to 6x as many for the sake of argument. The 2022 season, with 85% of us vaxed, was somehow worse for every single one of those months, but it was still around 7x as much. Again, let's go with 6x as many. So 25.5M flu season months vs 19M non-flu-season months at 1/6th the rate, so that's basically 25.5 vs 3. There should have been 8x as many covid deaths among the unvaxed just in Dec2020 plus Jan and Feb of 2021 as there were among all the 4xers that ever existed. Then there were still 20 more months for unvaxed people to die, including another entire flu season (so add a full Nov plus another first half of Dec) It's honestly crazy how many 4xers are dead when you consider that only a small number of them existed and only for 1 summer. Edited November 8, 2022 by WestCanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodad Posted November 8, 2022 Report Share Posted November 8, 2022 16 hours ago, WestCanMan said: I never said I was debating you, Ive just explained the easiest things to you over and over without making much progress. Now I know how it feels to teach simple fractions to the short bus class. Yes, the stats that you're trying to quote are "weak and stupid. Tell me, which one of these injections is more effective? Vax 1) In a group of 100,000 people, there were 30,000 cases in the hospital and 100 died. Vax 2) In an identical group of 100,000 people, there were 8,000 cases in the hospital and 100 died. Placebo Group) 100,000 people, identical to the other two groups, 15,000 cases in the hospital and 100 died. Perfesser Hobab: "That's easy, vax #1, because they had a higher survival rate after hospitalization!!!" Me: "I'd rather stay out of the hospital if I had my druthers. Regardless of which injection I chose, the chance of survival seems really similar though, so I guess I'd rather not take an injection." I'm going to stop you right there. Your pants are on fire. The statistic is NOT survival rate after hospitalization. Hospitalization and death are independent of one another. And yes, Vax 1 is the best choice. You've have to functionally illiterate to look electively join one of the groups with 2x+ mortality. If you'd truly rather stay out of the hospital vaccination is BY FAR the right choice. Again, you'd have to be functionally illiterate to see the data and not see the advantage. The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. But I guess rabid partisans would rather choose a significantly higher risk of death than admit that the vaccines are effective. Quote Oh, wonderful. I guess that means that if we vaccinated 99% of the old people, who already survived 2020 and the first half of 2021 unvaxed, we should have far less covid deaths in 2022. Wait, we tried that exact thing and it didn't work even a little, itty bitty, teeny tiny bit. You are just being stupid here. If the outcomes for individuals are better-- and they are conclusively better in recorded, real world data, the yes, obviously the vaccines worked. That's plainly established in the data. All things being equal, the vaccines will move the death count. But we don't have a control group and reality changes year to year. Whatever the death count was in 2022, we KNOW as a fact that it would have been significantly higher without the vaccines. We know this because we have the data on efficacy at the individual level. Again, the shitty reasoning you are applying is the exact same as looking at traffic fatalities which climb year after year and concluding that seatbelts and airbags don't work. "If they saved lives, why is the fatality count going up?" you'd say. -- But clearly that's not logical reasoning. We know they work. We can see that they reduce the fatality rate of each individual accident. So without those mitigating safety measures we KNOW that the total count would by much higher. Even though the total death counts are (coincidentally) similar year to year we can see mathematically that they would be significantly higher without vaccines, seat belts or airbags. Quote Perfesser Hobab: "Yes it did, and science confirmed it. The simple fact is that you can have the exact same number of deaths in that group after vaxing as they experienced the year before, and the vaccine could still be considered to be performing perfectly well, as long as more people got infected but then had a full recovery." Me: "So let me get this straight: the vaccine doesn't have to prevent a single death, and it can still be considered to be performing perfectly? It just has to allow more people to get sick, and then theoretically save a bunch of them, while arriving at the exact same death count?" No, you do not have that straight. Vaccines don't "allow" more people to get sick. And the vaccines greatly reducing the chances of serious illness and death aren't theoretical, but rather tracked and recorded facts. Vaccines do reduce transmission, but even if you ignored that entirely (as you have) it should be obvious that saving a lot of lives is a desirable outcome. Quote Perfesser Hobab: "Yes. The measure of a vaccine isn't 'whether or not it lowers the overall number of deaths', it's 'how many people have to be hospitalized to arrive at the same death count." No, again, this is a misrepresentation. Hospitalization and death are correlated but independent. You can die of COVID at home without ever going to a hospital. -- And if you're unvaccinated that's considerably more likely. ? But beyond that, YES, significantly lowering the number of deaths per case is pretty freaking awesome. Just like lowering the number of fatalities per accident. Quote Me: "OK, so if I get the vax it will increase my likelihood of hospitalization, but then I will have the exact same chance of dying in the end, and that means it works?" No. That's both logically stupid and mathematically inaccurate. Being vaccinated decreases your likelihood of being hospitalized and decreases your likelihood of dying. Again (because maybe someday it will get through your thick skull) The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. Quote <snipped shark jump) Unvaxed people faced the same risk, and died in the exact same proportion. No. False. Look at the age distributions for both death and vaccination. Children-->40s are already at very low risk of death. and children-->30s make up the bulk of the unvaxxed. So the unvaxxed cohort in total is at much lower risk of death AND STILL managed to be overrepresented in the death outcome. That how effective the vaccines are. The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. Quote The exact same people that vaccinated and then died in 2022 had faced the risk of covid in 2020 and the 2021 flu season unvaccinated and survived. In general, the whole population of Canada faced covid unvaxed for the 6 month period from Dec 14 2020 to July 14 2021 and experienced the same death toll as we did after 85% vaccination from Dec 14 2021 to July 14 2022. Exact same people, same old covid, exact same time period, mass-vaccinations which reduce death by 80% (sometimes of them forced vaccinations), exact same result. Account for that. It's not the exact same COVID and not the exact same circumstances. It would be mathematically impossible for that to be the case. You literally cannot increase individual survival without also reducing the total number of deaths under the exact same circumstances. -- I think we can acutally agree on that. the problem for you is that we have documented proof that the vaccines increase survival. You're just choosing to disregard the reality of the math rather than admit that conditions were therefore necessarily different. Quote What's the difference between being unvaxed and wearing a tinfoil hat? I thought they'd fare the same against covid... Why do unvaxed people keep having the same outcomes as vaxed people, but people with tinfoil hats wouldn't. Yes, the unvaccinated have no survival advantage over a tinfoil hat. And unvaccinated people don't have the same outcomes as vaccinated people. So stop saying it. The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. Quote I do, but you and science seem to care more about 'how many infections it takes to arrive at the exact same death total'. You're saying "Eureka! It works!" while the exact same number of people are in mourning year after year. I get that you feel like the vaccine is working, and that forcing people to take it is a blessing for them, but can you understand if other people feel like you're pissing in their face and trying to tell them that it's raining? You don't like that the same number of people are mourning, but as you try to convince people to NOT get vaccinated you are creating MORE mourners. That's the inescapable mathematical truth of the situation. We have the data. Vaccines save lives. And you don't want people to take them. The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted November 8, 2022 Report Share Posted November 8, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Hodad said: I'm going to stop you right there. Your pants are on fire. The statistic is NOT survival rate after hospitalization. Hospitalization and death are independent of one another. And yes, Vax 1 is the best choice. You've have to functionally illiterate to look electively join one of the groups with 2x+ mortality. I'm gonna stop you right there, that's literally the dumbest thing anyone ever said. Having extra hospitalizations just to come up with the same death toll is not a bonus ffs. When there are extra hospitalizations it's a bad thing. I honestly that you'd know at least that much. Quote The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. But I guess rabid partisans would rather choose a significantly higher risk of death than admit that the vaccines are effective. Again, that's just an intentionally misleading "stat". FYI "Standard vaccinations" is limited to "people who have two doses, plus the waiting period". They were all the rage during summer of 2021, but then they started swapping up to being 3xers that winter. The class of people who got two jabs and then stopped is primarily made up of people who were forced to get two doses so that they could keep their jobs, or participate in society, but refused to go further. Only a portion of "only standard vaxers" even experienced a single flu season. The whole concept of using them as a statistical group was contrived to be completely misleading. If you really want to count 2xers, there are millions of them who also have a 3rd and a 4th dose, and then died. Their death counts also needs to include people who grajeeated to being 3xers, and then again to 4xers. Therefor, 2xers don't have 3,821 deaths (sept 25 2022), they have 3,821 plus 5,209 who got an additional dose plus 1,031 who got a 4th dose. There are over 10,000 people who got two doses or more and then died. Not 3,821. You don't get to exclude 6,000 people just because they piled on extra doses. Quote You are just being stupid here. If the outcomes for individuals are better-- and they are conclusively better in recorded, real world data, the yes, obviously the vaccines worked. That's plainly established in the data. There's actually no real-world recorded data from Canada that shows a reduction in deaths, and that's what we care about. Your roundabout stat of "sure, they died at the same rate, but there were also more of them hospitalized" works for you. Great. IDGAF. Yay, you had some extra hospitalizations! Good for you! But for people who just want to survive covid, vaxed results are just = unvaxed results. X number of deaths per hundred people in one group, the exact same in the other, just more hospitalizations among the vaxed. Do a victory lap and then shove another needle in your ass Hodad. Quote All things being equal, the vaccines will move the death count. But we don't have a control group and reality changes year to year. Whatever the death count was in 2022, we KNOW as a fact that it would have been significantly higher without the vaccines. We know this because we have the data on efficacy at the individual level. Nope. We do have a control group, because all Canadians experieced covid from Dec 2020 - July 2021 unvaxed, then faced it with two vaxes the next year. The death total was the same, maybe higher. Everything that you claim to see was "behind closed doors". I care about survival, not trivia. We all do. We wouldn't force young people to vax just to reduce hospitalizations by .25 of 1 percent. For all intents and purposes, old people get hospitalized. Period. You have data that shows increased efficacy among hospitalized cases but still resulting in the exact same number of deaths And that's among people who survived covid unvaxed in one flu season then died the next. It's a perfect example of "a distinction without a difference". The real difference is people who were alive minus people who still are alive. The difference is death. Having a bloated hospitalization total along the way is no proof of success. You're pissing on the dead people and saying it's rain. Quote Again, the shitty reasoning you are applying is the exact same as looking at traffic fatalities which climb year after year and concluding that seatbelts and airbags don't work. "If they saved lives, why is the fatality count going up?" you'd say. -- But clearly that's not logical reasoning. We know they work. We can see that they reduce the fatality rate of each individual accident. So without those mitigating safety measures we KNOW that the total count would by much higher. No, it's like having zero cars with seatbelts one year, promising an 80% reduction in fatalities in cars with seatbelts installed, the next year we get seatbelts in 85% of cars and those people wear them all the time (vaxed people can't take their 'seatbelts' off), and then the exact same number of people die the next year. The percent of deaths among seatbelted cars is in exact proportion to the percent of seatbelted cars on the road. People would say: "Perfesser Hobab, you promised that seatbelts would reduce deaths by 80% in cars where they were installed but that never happened at all. Are you sure they work?" Perfesser Hobab "Yes Libbie, they work just fine. There were far more hospitalizations among the seatbelted crowd when they were exposed to the same number of accidents. That's how we know they work." Libbie "Aw gee perfesser, thank you so much. I will run around telling that to everyone, and if they disagree I'll call them racists." Quote Even though the total death counts are (coincidentally) similar year to year we can see mathematically that they would be significantly higher without vaccines, seat belts or airbags. Yeah, what a coincidence. The deaths stayed the same. As did the proportion of vaxed deaths to vaxed Canadians. Thank God for your BS mathematics or we'd all be under the impression that the number of deaths wasn't affected by the vax. Oh wait, it wasn't. Quote The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. You must have quoted those stats 5 or 6 times and they never got any less stupid. I should probably have said There are over 10,000 people who got two doses or more and then died. Not 3,821. You don't get to exclude 6,000 people just because they piled on extra doses 5 more times just so that eventually you might get it. 2xers experience part of 1 flu season, then they got even more jabs and kept on dying as if [take your pick of 1 or 2] 1) nothing had ever changed or 2) they all wore tinfoil hats. Why does it seem like nothing ever changed when they kept taking subsequent doses? Because it didn't. And why is that. I'll leave you to guess. Edited November 8, 2022 by WestCanMan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodad Posted November 8, 2022 Report Share Posted November 8, 2022 41 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: I'm gonna stop you right there, that's literally the dumbest thing anyone ever said. Having extra hospitalizations just to come up with the same death toll is not a bonus ffs. When there are extra hospitalizations it's a bad thing. I honestly that you'd know at least that much. I misread your scenario. It's a silly scenario, but I have no problem admitting when I make a mistake. One of the things that makes me an evolved human. ? It's a silly scenario because it's not just fictional but the opposite of reality, in which the unvaxxed who catch COVID are more likely to be so seriously ill that they are hospitalized and are also more likely to die. Quote Again, that's just an intentionally misleading "stat". FYI "Standard vaccinations" is limited to "people who have two doses, plus the waiting period". They were all the rage during summer of 2021, but then they started swapping up to being 3xers that winter. The class of people who got two jabs and then stopped is primarily made up of people who were forced to get two doses so that they could keep their jobs, or participate in society, but refused to go further. Only a portion of "only standard vaxers" even experienced a single flu season. The whole concept of using them as a statistical group was contrived to be completely misleading. It is a "misleading stat," in that it favors your failed argument. The standard vaccine recipients are the closest we can come to the population mix of the unvaxxed. The unvaxxed are still substantially younger in composition, and even giving you that as a freebie- without even standardizing for risk -the vaccinated group significantly outperforms the unvaccinated group. And don't be stupid. Statistically speaking, it doesn't matter whether they were "forced" to get the vaccine or not. The fact is that they have it, and because of that they are dramatically less likely to be hospitalized or die from COVID. Lucky them. Whereas boosters were recommended and prioritized for those most at risk- the elderly and those with comorbidities. Quote If you really want to count 2xers, there are millions of them who also have a 3rd and a 4th dose, and then died. Their death counts also needs to include people who grajeeated to being 3xers, and then again to 4xers. Therefor, 2xers don't have 3,821 deaths (sept 25 2022), they have 3,821 plus 5,209 who got an additional dose plus 1,031 who got a 4th dose. There are over 10,000 people who got two doses or more and then died. Not 3,821. You don't get to exclude 6,000 people just because they piled on extra doses. Dude, keep up. The whole point of looking at the standard vaccine crowd is that it's as close compositionally to the unvaxxed crowd as we have. As I've explained several times. It's still substantially older than the unvaxxed crowd, but even with that handicap it outperforms. I'm totally happy to compare the boosted cohorts if you like, but not as a freebie. Standardize for age and let's talk. Compare 70-year-old unvaxxed to 70-year-old triple vaxxed. Report back what you find. Enjoy! Quote There's actually no real-world recorded data from Canada that shows a reduction in deaths, and that's what we care about. A. Yes, there is real world data, from Canada, that shows that individuals who are vaccinated and contract COVID are dramatically less likely to be hospitalized or die. I've posted it many times for you. Those ARE lives saved. Those ARE a reduction in death. B. What you mean to say is that the total death count has remained the same. I'm skeptical of that claim, but whether it has or hasn't is of no relevance to vaccine efficacy. In the exact same way that the constant increase in traffic fatalities does not mean that seatbelts and airbags don't work. <-- you can see how that is a bog stupid argument against seatbelts and airbags, no? Like you get that? Then STOP making the same stupid argument about total death count from COVID. We all want that number to go down- hell, we all want it to be zero- but it's not a good measure of vaccine efficacy. Quote Your roundabout stat of "sure, they died at the same rate, but there were also more of them hospitalized" works for you. Great. IDGAF. Yay, you had some extra hospitalizations! Good for you! No idea what you're talking about here or why you would write a scenario that way. The vaccinated are less likely to be hospitalized and less likely to die than the unvaccinated. They aren't more likely to be hospitalized and less likely to die. That's some weird invention of yours. Quote But for people who just want to survive covid, vaxed results are just = unvaxed results. X number of deaths per hundred people in one group, the exact same in the other, just more hospitalizations among the vaxed. Do a victory lap and then shove another needle in your ass Hodad. You are a liar. I have posted it and linked it over and over again, so I know it's deliberate. The vaxxed results are NOT equal to the unvaxxed. They are substantially better. PHAC The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. Between August 29, 2022 and September 25, 2022, unvaccinated cases were 3 times more likely to be hospitalized and 5 times more likely to die from their illness, compared to cases with a completed primary vaccine series. During the same 4-week period, unvaccinated cases were 3 times more likely to be hospitalized and 5 times more likely to die from their illness, compared to cases with a completed primary vaccine series and 1 or more additional doses ^^The information is just sitting there, waiting for people to adopt it. But you're so damn invested in this fake narrative of ineffective vaccines that you pretend this data doesn't exist. It's farked up. Quote Nope. We do have a control group, because all Canadians experieced covid from Dec 2020 - July 2021 unvaxed, then faced it with two vaxes the next year. The death total was the same, maybe higher. Everything that you claim to see was "behind closed doors". I care about survival, not trivia. We all do. We wouldn't force young people to vax just to reduce hospitalizations by .25 of 1 percent. For all intents and purposes, old people get hospitalized. Period. A. That is NOT a control group. The conditions changed year-to-year. There are new variants, different behaviors, new information, different community spread and crap ton of other variables. That's NOT what a control group means. And seriously, WTF? The data "I claim" is NOT behind closed doors. It's literally in the big damn charts that you yourself have posted many times. They count cases. They count deaths. They do simple math. It's all pretty transparent. If you don't believe in that data source, stop trying to use the data and just shake your fist impotently at the sky instead. Quote You have data that shows increased efficacy among hospitalized cases but still resulting in the exact same number of deaths And that's among people who survived covid unvaxed in one flu season then died the next. It's a perfect example of "a distinction without a difference". The real difference is people who were alive minus people who still are alive. The difference is death. Having a bloated hospitalization total along the way is no proof of success. You're pissing on the dead people and saying it's rain. The data is NOT showing the efficacy among hospitalized cases. It's showing the difference among COVID cases. Full stop. Within those cases, hospitalization is one outcome they are tracking. Death is another outcome they are tracking. Yes, there is probably significant overlap, but it's not conditional. And as I pointed out above, you are making a stupid argument here. A mitigator can prevent deaths- can prevent a lot of deaths -without bringing down the number of total deaths. If you haven't the imagination to conceive of such a scenario just refer to the automotive fatalities example. Quote No, it's like having zero cars with seatbelts one year, promising an 80% reduction in fatalities in cars with seatbelts installed, the next year we get seatbelts in 85% of cars and those people wear them all the time (vaxed people can't take their 'seatbelts' off), and then the exact same number of people die the next year. The percent of deaths among seatbelted cars is in exact proportion to the percent of seatbelted cars on the road. How many people were driving? How many miles did they travel? How many accidents were there? How bad were the accidents? And you are lying again. The percent of deaths among the seatbelted (vaccinated) is dramatically lower than among those without seatbelts (the unvaccinated). Hey, look. Here it is again: The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. Quote People would say: "Perfesser Hobab, you promised that seatbelts would reduce deaths by 80% in cars where they were installed but that never happened at all. Are you sure they work?" Perfesser Hobab "Yes Libbie, they work just fine. There were far more hospitalizations among the seatbelted crowd when they were exposed to the same number of accidents. That's how we know they work." Libbie "Aw gee perfesser, thank you so much. I will run around telling that to everyone, and if they disagree I'll call them racists." ^^Congrats on sinking to a new low in logic and honestly. Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted November 8, 2022 Report Share Posted November 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Hodad said: Between August 29, 2022 and September 25, 2022, unvaccinated cases were 3 times more likely to be hospitalized and 5 times more likely to die from their illness, compared to cases with a completed primary vaccine series. During the same 4-week period, unvaccinated cases were 3 times more likely to be hospitalized and 5 times more likely to die from their illness, compared to cases with a completed primary vaccine series and 1 or more additional doses I don't have time for all your lies and bullshit right now so I'll just cut to the least ridiculous-sounding part. (How did your car crash analogy pan out for you by the way. Did you even try to understand it or was it just beyond you [logical and accurate]?) If unvaccinated people were really 5x more likely to die than the other two groups, and 15% of Canadians are unvaccinated, then the deaths per hundred people equation looks like .15 x 5y + .85y = 100. 1.6y = 100 y = 62.5 .15 x 5y = unvaxed deaths per 100 people. 1.5 x 5 x 62.5 = 46.875 deaths .85 x 1y = .85 x 62.5 = 53.125 Seems like about 47% of deaths here should be from the unvaxed and 53% should be from the vaxed if unvaxed people were really 5x as likely to die. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks pretty close. The number is 15/100. The real world equation is .15 x 1y + .85y = 100 .15y + .85y = 100 Get it? Unvaxed people aren't 5x as likely to die, or 47% of our deaths would be from the unvaxed, despite the fact that only 15% of us are unvaxed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodad Posted November 9, 2022 Report Share Posted November 9, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, WestCanMan said: I don't have time for all your lies and bullshit right now so I'll just cut to the least ridiculous-sounding part. (How did your car crash analogy pan out for you by the way. Did you even try to understand it or was it just beyond you [logical and accurate]?) If unvaccinated people were really 5x more likely to die than the other two groups, and 15% of Canadians are unvaccinated, then the deaths per hundred people equation looks like .15 x 5y + .85y = 100. 1.6y = 100 y = 62.5 .15 x 5y = unvaxed deaths per 100 people. 1.5 x 5 x 62.5 = 46.875 deaths .85 x 1y = .85 x 62.5 = 53.125 Seems like about 47% of deaths here should be from the unvaxed and 53% should be from the vaxed if unvaxed people were really 5x as likely to die. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks pretty close. The number is 15/100. The real world equation is .15 x 1y + .85y = 100 .15y + .85y = 100 Get it? Unvaxed people aren't 5x as likely to die, or 47% of our deaths would be from the unvaxed, despite the fact that only 15% of us are unvaxed. I am pleased to say that your math looks good! I mean, you could have saved yourself the trouble if you had looked at the distribution chart I posted (or the dozen times I posted the stat in text form). From PHAC again: So everybody agrees that the vaccine works and we're all hunky dory? You'll stop helping COVID kill people? Edited November 9, 2022 by Hodad 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebound Posted November 9, 2022 Report Share Posted November 9, 2022 (edited) It’s a sickness when a man who claims to be a follower of Christ, who absolutely believes in the sanctity of all life, spouts lies and misinformation about vaccines. I took a graduate class in Demography at a major university. Demographics, or population studies, measures entire populations. They don’t survey; they study recorded births and deaths among entire cities/states/nations. In every single nation, you can plainly see the massive impact that vaccination programs had in drastically reducing infant and childhood mortality. Tens of thousands of American children lived inside of iron lung machines because of polio. Hundreds of thousands were paralyzed from it. That disease has been completely eradicated, because of vaccine. They work! It is incontestable. A man who says he has faith in Christ and yet lies about vaccines is a false Christian. Plain and simple. It’s not stupidity, it’s pure evil. Edited November 9, 2022 by Rebound 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodad Posted November 9, 2022 Report Share Posted November 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Rebound said: It’s a sickness when a man who claims to be a follower of Christ, who absolutely believes in the sanctity of all life, spouts lies and misinformation about vaccines. I took a graduate class in Demography at a major university. Demographics, or population studies, measures entire populations. They don’t survey; they study recorded births and deaths among entire cities/states/nations. In every single nation, you can plainly see the massive impact that vaccination programs had in drastically reducing infant and childhood mortality. Tens of thousands of American children lived inside of iron lung machines because of polio. Hundreds of thousands were paralyzed from it. That disease has been completely eradicated, because of vaccine. They work! It is incontestable. A man who says he has faith in Christ and yet lies about vaccines is a false Christian. Plain and simple. It’s not stupidity, it’s pure evil. To be fair, he doesn't seem to be generally anti-vax and has lauded the polio vaccine. But he mistakenly believes (or believed?) that the COVID vaccines weren't beneficial. I think/hope that we can all see now that this isn't the case. The data, at least, is clear that they save and have saved a lot of lives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted November 9, 2022 Report Share Posted November 9, 2022 14 hours ago, Hodad said: I am pleased to say that your math looks good! I mean, you could have saved yourself the trouble if you had looked at the distribution chart I posted (or the dozen times I posted the stat in text form). From PHAC again: So everybody agrees that the vaccine works and we're all hunky dory? You'll stop helping COVID kill people? Do you realize that is not at all what I was just talking about? It's completely unrelated. 1) My math was exact. Right now, month to month, 15% of covid deaths are among the unvaxed, and 15% of Canadians are unvaxed. Only 15%, not 47.6%. There would be 46.7% if your "5x as likely to die" stats were right, but you were 100% wrong. 2) If your comments were correct, and unvaxed were 5x more likely to die, then 47% of covid deaths right now would be among the unvaxed each month, and that's not happening. 15% of people and 15% of covid deaths each month. 3) The stat that you just posted is in no way a rate which can be compared across the board. It the proportion of covid deaths since Dec 14 2020. That's a dog's breakfast of times when were were anywhere from 100% unvaxed to 15% unvaxed. Double-vaxed in your chart were 0%, then 80%, and then down to 32% when 3xers took the majority of them. Triple-vaxed were at 0% for a full year, went up to 49%, and then down to 35% because 4xers cut into their numbers. There were an average of 2M 4xers for one summer, that's it. Yet they already account for 5% of the total deaths. That's actually a lot. The chart you posted is meaningless. WHAT VALUE IS THERE IN COMPARING THE % OF 4XERS WHO DIED IN ONE SUMMER TO THE NUMBER OF UNVAXED WHO DIED IN TWO YEARS, AND TWO FLU SEASONS? THERE WAS JUST A HANDFUL OF 4XERS AT MOST AND THERE WERE 38M UNVAXED AT ONE POINT THERE? I've told you guys a hundred times, infobase DOES NOT TELL YOU how many people are dying each month, they only talk in terms of what happened since Dec 14 2020. If you want to know how many died each month, you have to save the running death total yourself, then a month later, when it's updated, subtract the old total from the new one. You'll find that the number of covid deaths in each category correlates exactly to the % of people in that category. 15% of us unvaxed, 15% of deaths among the unvaxed. What you posted is misleading to the point of being disinformation. The fact that you think it's a gotcha moment is telling. It means that you're just a really stupid guy. Again, the 4.5% of deaths you cited in that chart is the number of quadruple-vaxed who died this summer, when there were 2M of them on average. You're comparing the deaths from a handful of Canadians in a single summer to the number of unvaxed who died in the covid flu season for 2020/2021 when all 38M of us were unvaccinated, it includes about 30M of us in spring of 2021, 20M of us in summer of 2021, 10M that fall, 6M that winter, 6M this spring, 6M this summer, and 6M this fall. Get it? Are you shocked that so many unvaxed Canadians died in about 279Million man/months of exposure and so few quadruple-vaxed people died in 18M months of exposure? And again, the 4xers were only exposed in the summer, the unvaxed numbers include two flu seasons. WANNA KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED IN THAT LAST MONTH? The total number of covid deaths from Dec 14 2020 to Aug 21 of 2022 is attached. The total number of covid deaths from Dec 14 2020 to Sept 25 of 2022 is attached. Subtract the running total from Aug 21 from the Sept 25 running total and you'll know exactly how many people died between Aug 21 and Sept 25. Hint, there weren't 10,000 unvxed deaths ech month. That's a running total. 10,800 unv in Sept - 10,645 in Aug means 155 unvaxed died. There were almost 500 3xers. 323 4xers. If you do the math you'll see that unvaxed only made up 15% of the deaths between Aug and Sept of this year. Not 47.6%. Only a total f'ing tool would think that after talking about these stats for as long as you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted November 9, 2022 Report Share Posted November 9, 2022 Someone needs to rename this topic or just bin it. It stopped being about US politics and became just another anti vax thread a long time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodad Posted November 9, 2022 Report Share Posted November 9, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, WestCanMan said: Do you realize that is not at all what I was just talking about? It's completely unrelated. 1) My math was exact. Right now, month to month, 15% of covid deaths are among the unvaxed, and 15% of Canadians are unvaxed. Only 15%, not 47.6%. There would be 46.7% if your "5x as likely to die" stats were right, but you were 100% wrong. Ah, so you've done the math that actually confirms that the unvaccinated are 5x as likely to die, based on actual deaths provided by PHAC, and you still can't be bothered to face that fact. And now you're going back to your silly time boxing. You want to base your total evaluation of efficacy of the vaccines on a short time span, after most of the country is vaccinated, comparing the mortality of the young (and stupid) against the most vulnerable population. Yet, no matter how hard you try to spin, dance and doge you can't escape the FACT that: The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. Quote 2) If your comments were correct, and unvaxed were 5x more likely to die, then 47% of covid deaths right now would be among the unvaxed each month, and that's not happening. 15% of people and 15% of covid deaths each month. Bullshit. I gave you non-standardized data as a freebie for the full data set and acknowledged it as such multiple times. I explained how (obviously) it favors your case. But it's absurd for you to want to- for the sake of your lies -restrict the data to a time box that compares the mortality rates of lowest risk to those the highest risk without controlling for age/risk. That would be malpractice and misinformation in the extreme. And you're doing it IN SPITE of the clear, inescapable data that shows that the vaccines saved many lives and dramatically reduce the risk of death. Quote 3) The stat that you just posted is in no way a rate which can be compared across the board. It the proportion of covid deaths since Dec 14 2020. That's a dog's breakfast of times when were were anywhere from 100% unvaxed to 15% unvaxed. Double-vaxed in your chart were 0%, then 80%, and then down to 32% when 3xers took the majority of them. Triple-vaxed were at 0% for a full year, went up to 49%, and then down to 35% because 4xers cut into their numbers. There were an average of 2M 4xers for one summer, that's it. Yet they already account for 5% of the total deaths. That's actually a lot. The chart you posted is meaningless. I know you're hung up on this, but In terms of efficacy, it literally doesn't matter whether from one day to the next the population was 90% unvaxxed, 50% unvaxxed or 20% unvaxxed. The number or percent of cases of each type at any given moment is irrelevant, because you can still see the relative outcomes. The unvaxxed are overrepresented in the morgue and the vaccinated are more likely to go home to their families. What matters is whether the vaccines improve outcomes for each individual case. And yes, yes they do. It's clearly borne out in the data: The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. Quote WHAT VALUE IS THERE IN COMPARING THE % OF 4XERS WHO DIED IN ONE SUMMER TO THE NUMBER OF UNVAXED WHO DIED IN TWO YEARS, AND TWO FLU SEASONS? THERE WAS JUST A HANDFUL OF 4XERS AT MOST AND THERE WERE 38M UNVAXED AT ONE POINT THERE? I've told you guys a hundred times, infobase DOES NOT TELL YOU how many people are dying each month, they only talk in terms of what happened since Dec 14 2020. If you want to know how many died each month, you have to save the running death total yourself, then a month later, when it's updated, subtract the old total from the new one. You'll find that the number of covid deaths in each category correlates exactly to the % of people in that category. 15% of us unvaxed, 15% of deaths among the unvaxed. That is a great methodology for someone who doesn't give a shit about quality data, because, like I've told you a hundred times, it's not controlled for age/risk. You can look at the age distribution of vax statuses and see plainly that the unvaxxed are young while the older the cohorts get the more likely they are to be vaxxed, boosted, boosted again etc. -- The more risk people bear, the more likely they are to mitigate it. So why are you trying to compare the death rates of the young, low-risk unvaccinated to the most vulnerable oldies with the 4x doses? It's clearly bad practice. It' clearly going to give you a dramatically skewed result. It's been explained to you many times. So why do you keep doing it? You are taking deliberate steps to cook the books to support your failed argument, but even with that advantage baked in, there is no denying the actual data: The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths Yes, that's 5x more likely to die, even without standardizing for age. You did the math. Face facts. Quote What you posted is misleading to the point of being disinformation. The fact that you think it's a gotcha moment is telling. It means that you're just a really stupid guy. Again, the 4.5% of deaths you cited in that chart is the number of quadruple-vaxed who died this summer, when there were 2M of them on average. Again, total bullshit. You are deliberately trying to skew the number. But not even all the lying and cheating will help erase the data. The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. Quote WANNA KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED IN THAT LAST MONTH? The total number of covid deaths from Dec 14 2020 to Aug 21 of 2022 is attached. The total number of covid deaths from Dec 14 2020 to Sept 25 of 2022 is attached. Subtract the running total from Aug 21 from the Sept 25 running total and you'll know exactly how many people died between Aug 21 and Sept 25. Hint, there weren't 10,000 unvxed deaths ech month. That's a running total. 10,800 unv in Sept - 10,645 in Aug means 155 unvaxed died. There were almost 500 3xers. 323 4xers. If you do the math you'll see that unvaxed only made up 15% of the deaths between Aug and Sept of this year. Not 47.6%. Only a total f'ing tool would think that after talking about these stats for as long as you have. Only a total farking tool would think he could get away with statistical malpractice even after you've been caught red handed. It's not an accident anymore, you're doing it deliberately. You KNOW that the vaccines have saved many lives. It's in the data and plainly stated on the same page you cite. You KNOW that the the unvaccinated are 5x more likely to die than the standard vax crowd because you did the math that matches perfectly to the distribution of deaths. I thought you were stupid when you were missing key points after dozens of posts. I no longer think you're stupid, nor that you are missing the point. I do think you're a shameless liar though, and that you are willingly and eagerly and relentlessly putting your political points ahead of the lives of your countrymen. You'd rather help COVID kill Canadians than abandon your talking points. Gross. There is no question- zero -that the vaccines save lives. The data is crystal clear. And there's no way for you to escape it. The unvaccinated account for 40.8% of cases but account for 47.6% of hospitalizations and 47.6% deaths. Those with standard vaccination account for 32% of the cases but only 19.9% of hospitalizations and 16.8% of deaths. Edited November 9, 2022 by Hodad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted November 9, 2022 Report Share Posted November 9, 2022 4 minutes ago, Hodad said: Ah, so you've done the math that actually confirms that the unvaccinated are 5x as likely to die, based on actual deaths provided by PHAC, and you still can't be bothered to face that fact. No, you're just not able to comprehend the difference between: The percentage of people who died, by vax status, between Dec 14 2020 and Sept 25th 2022, and The percentage of people who died, by vax status, in each month. One stat is extremely misleading, because the vax status of 38M people fluctuated enormously over two years, and different numbers of people in each group were exposed to different variants for different lengths of time, some of them through two flu seasons and some only through one summer. One stat is incredibly useful and informative, because month-to-month, the vax status barely fluctuates at all, and every single person in each group who's involved in that stat had the same exposure to the same variant for the same length of time. I choose to use informative stats to help people understand what's going on, while you exclusively cling to the stats which are intentionally misleading. I also posted a graph which showed that vaxing 85% of our most vulnerable people didn't result in even a minor drop in the death toll. It was far more relevant than your comparison between 4xer deaths this summer vs unvaxed deaths in Dec of 2020, our first flu season with covid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodad Posted November 9, 2022 Report Share Posted November 9, 2022 Quote One stat is extremely misleading, because the vax status of 38M people fluctuated enormously over two years, and different numbers of people in each group were exposed to different variants for different lengths of time, some of them through two flu seasons and some only through one summer. Yes, the monthly stat is extremely misleading- and deliberately so, because it obscures a crystal clear record of vaccine advantage. Congratulations on establishing what we've known since the first months of the pandemic: healthy young people are dramatically less likely to die than decaying oldies. The vaccines clearly save many lives and greatly reduce risk, but that doesn't mean that they can completely invert the rate of death. You should be impressed that the death rates are what they are- further evidence of vaccine efficacy -but instead you use those numbers to sow FUD and death. Again, even if you don't standardize for age, the vaccines reduce risk of death for the COVID infected by 3x-5x. And it would be much higher in many strata if standardized for age. Quote One stat is incredibly useful and informative, because month-to-month, the vax status barely fluctuates at all, and every single person in each group who's involved in that stat had the same exposure to the same variant for the same length of time. I choose to use informative stats to help people understand what's going on, while you exclusively cling to the stats which are intentionally misleading. Bullshit. Comparing young unvaccinated people to vaccinated old people is pure, disingenuous sophistry. Quote I also posted a graph which showed that vaxing 85% of our most vulnerable people didn't result in even a minor drop in the death toll. It was far more relevant than your comparison between 4xer deaths this summer vs unvaxed deaths in Dec of 2020, our first flu season with covid. Yep, and by that busted logic adding seat belts, airbags and other safety features to card didn't result in even a minor drop in the death toll, so they must not work. Please, let everyone in your misinformation email chains know they should stop buckling and go back to cars from the 50s. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted November 14, 2022 Report Share Posted November 14, 2022 Meanwhile fresh examples of Trump’s shameless influence peddling during his time in office emerges Trump D.C. hotel receipts reveal $10,500-a-night rooms for foreign officials seeking to influence U.S. Bills for Malaysia, Saudi, UAE and Qatar governments show lavish spending at the hotel in 2017 and 2018 during sensitive times for those countries’ relations with the U.S. During Donald Trump’s presidency, the governments of Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, Qatar, Turkey, China and Malaysia spent hundreds of thousands of dollars at the Trump International Hotel in Washington at the same time they were trying to influence U.S. foreign policy, according to investigative findings released Monday by the House Committee on Oversight and Reform. Hotel receipts obtained by the Oversight Committee show that the then-prime minister of Malaysia and his delegation spent $259,724 at the hotel during a one-week stay in September 2017, including a $10,000 room and $1,500 “Personal Trainer” for embattled Prime Minister Najib Razak, and $9,229 for “Coffee Break[s].” At the time, Razak was unsuccessfully lobbying the Trump administration to drop an investigation into a Malaysian sovereign wealth fund he had co-founded. The Saudi Ministry of Defense spent $85,961 during a one-week stay in March 2018, including renting several $10,500 suites, according to the Oversight Committee findings. The Saudi revenues for the Trump hotel came during a period when Saudi Arabia and the UAE were lobbying the Trump administration to support them during their blockade against economic rival Qatar. For their part Qatari officials and connected companies spent at least $307,941 at the Trump hotel from late 2017 through mid-2018, according to the Oversight Committee’s findings. …. The Malaysian expenditures at the Trump Hotel were the most extensive in a one-week period found by the Oversight Committee to date. The Malaysian sovereign wealth fund 1Malaysia Development Berhad (1MDB) was under investigation by the Justice Department for embezzling billions in funds and laundering them through American financial institutions to buy exclusive properties in the U.S., a yacht, and fine art by Monet and van Gogh.….Elliott Broidy, a Republican fundraiser and Trump ally who was later convicted of acting as an unregistered foreign agent for Malaysia and other countries, also spent more than $5,000 at the hotel during the week the Malaysian delegation stayed there, according to hotel receipts obtained by the Oversight Committee. As part of his plea, Broidy admitted to illegally lobbying Trump and then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions to drop the civil forfeiture proceedings against 1MBD. Broidy spent another $2,970 at the Trump International Hotel in October 2017 while lobbying on behalf of the UAE during the Qatar blockade, according to the Oversight Committee. In January 2021, Broidy was pardoned by Trump. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-dc-hotel-10500-night-rooms-foreign-officials-rcna57027 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted November 14, 2022 Report Share Posted November 14, 2022 On 11/9/2022 at 8:31 AM, Aristides said: Someone needs to rename this topic or just bin it. It stopped being about US politics and became just another anti vax thread a long time ago. This is what happens when debating conspiracy nuts…. Everything turns to the conspiracies. It reminds me of the anecdote of playing chess with a pigeon…. It flaps its wings, knocks the pieces all over the place, shits on the board and then struts around as if it won the game. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted November 15, 2022 Report Share Posted November 15, 2022 4 hours ago, TreeBeard said: This is what happens when debating conspiracy nuts…. Everything turns to the conspiracies. Conspiracies like, it was a really bad idea to treat covid like it wasn't transmissible H2H? Or that it might have come from a lab? Or that the vaxes might not work that well? Or that Joe Biden really did know about Hunter's influence peddling overseas? Or that forcing young people to vax was ridiculous? Or that the FBI was committing crimes during the Russian collusion investigation? Sorry but all those came true. We need some new ones. FYI leftists turn everything into: systemic racism, climate change, misogyny, screaming that the 2016 was illegitimate, or screaming that it's treason to say that the 2020 election was illegitimate. Quote It reminds me of the anecdote of playing chess with a pigeon…. It flaps its wings, knocks the pieces all over the place, shits on the board and then struts around as if it won the game. There are threads here where leftists deny that 155/1082 is 14.3%. "IT'S A PANDEMIC OF THE UNVACCINATED!" Biden has said it, Trudeau has said it, and yet 85% of covid deaths are among the vaccinated. Sorry for raining on your parade dude, but leftists are just not smart enough to participate in these debates. That's why the world goes to crap when leftards get elected. They drone strike children and pretend that they were terrorists, they get dummied by the Taliban, they give rise to islamic genocide caliphates and wars in Europe, they are responsible for spiking gas prices and historic inflation rates, they celebrate massive riots which destroy communities, etc. It seems an awful lot like leftards are flapping their wings, knocking chess pieces all over the place, shitting on the board and then strutting around as if they're winning the game for us all. 2019 was the peak of western civilization, and it will be a long time before we get back there. We're definitely on the wrong track right now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted November 15, 2022 Report Share Posted November 15, 2022 34 minutes ago, WestCanMan said: 2019 was the peak of western civilization, and it will be a long time before we get back there. We're definitely on the wrong track right now. This is what a strutting pigeon looks like. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted November 15, 2022 Report Share Posted November 15, 2022 “The vast majority of people injured or killed in motor vehicle accidents are NOT drunk drivers, therefore there’s no evidence that drunk driving is dangerous. IT’S ALL JUST A BIG CONSPIRACYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!” 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted November 15, 2022 Report Share Posted November 15, 2022 2 hours ago, WestCanMan said: They drone strike children and pretend that they were terrorists, George W Bush, 2001-2008 Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, 1980-1992 (instead of Drones, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Latin American drug cartels and paramilitary death squads) 2 hours ago, WestCanMan said: they get dummied by the Taliban George W Bush 2 hours ago, WestCanMan said: they give rise to islamic genocide caliphates George W Bush 2 hours ago, WestCanMan said: wars in Europe Putin is responsible, with Trump/MAGA appeasement and open encouragement Also are you going to pretend that Bush didn’t invade Iraq for no good reason creating a decade-long war that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians including thousands of US troops and inspired terrorist attacks all around the globe and les to the creation of ISIS? 2 hours ago, WestCanMan said: spiking gas prices and historic inflation rates, Putin, China and COViD 2 hours ago, WestCanMan said: they celebrate massive riots which destroy communities, etc. just plain false. This is where you take things people said about peaceful protests and claim they were talking about the riots, we’ve been here before and don’t need to rehash it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted November 15, 2022 Report Share Posted November 15, 2022 (edited) 13 hours ago, TreeBeard said: This is what a strutting pigeon looks like. I gotta admit, you've perfected "strutting like a pigeon" instead of addressing facts. Meanwhile, I'll just reflect on 2019, when we could all afford to drive our cars, pay our mortgages, heat our houses, buy groceries and stuff like that... Oh, and before fascism. I guess that's a big one. Edited November 15, 2022 by WestCanMan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted November 15, 2022 Report Share Posted November 15, 2022 11 hours ago, BeaverFever said: George W Bush, 2001-2008 Ronald Reagan and George Bush Sr, 1980-1992 (instead of Drones, Taliban, Al Qaeda, Latin American drug cartels and paramilitary death squads) George W Bush George W Bush Putin is responsible, with Trump/MAGA appeasement and open encouragement Also are you going to pretend that Bush didn’t invade Iraq for no good reason creating a decade-long war that killed hundreds of thousands of civilians including thousands of US troops and inspired terrorist attacks all around the globe and les to the creation of ISIS? Putin, China and COViD just plain false. This is where you take things people said about peaceful protests and claim they were talking about the riots, we’ve been here before and don’t need to rehash it 1) You keep writing people's names where they don't belong. For example, it's just retarded to blame Dubya for Islamic State. That was Obama's Jr Varsity Terrorist Squad. 2) Funny that Biden did all those things in just two years and you don't have anything legitimate to pin on Trump 3) Dems absolutely celebrated riots 4) The war in Europe is entirely Biden/Obama's fault. 5) Grow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted November 15, 2022 Report Share Posted November 15, 2022 5 hours ago, WestCanMan said: 1) You keep writing people's names where they don't belong. For example, it's just retarded to blame Dubya for Islamic State. That was Obama's Jr Varsity Terrorist Squad. 2) Funny that Biden did all those things in just two years and you don't have anything legitimate to pin on Trump 3) Dems absolutely celebrated riots 4) The war in Europe is entirely Biden/Obama's fault. 5) Grow up. 1-5) False 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestCanMan Posted November 15, 2022 Report Share Posted November 15, 2022 3 minutes ago, BeaverFever said: False You should copy that to your clipboard and just paste it everywhere instead of lying. It would save you hours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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