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10 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't know what the specifics are here though.   Food protectionism is limited at some point, how would you do it?

We already do it by restricting imports of certain food items with tariffs. Also, consider the environmental impact of thousands of trucks operating daily carrying agricultural products between the US and Canada, or those transported from places like New Zealand and Europe which have similar climates and grow similar crops to us.

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16 minutes ago, Aristides said:

We already do it by restricting imports of certain food items with tariffs. Also, consider the environmental impact of thousands of trucks operating daily carrying agricultural products between the US and Canada, or those transported from places like New Zealand and Europe which have similar climates and grow similar crops to us.

I'm asking if you would increase the protectionism that we have in place today. What falls under the level of security? Energy, food, technology, weapons, water.. computer hardware also?

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Just now, Michael Hardner said:

I'm asking if you would increase the protectionism that we have in place today. What falls under the level of security? Energy, food, technology, weapons, water.. computer hardware also?

I would say all those things at some point. We are learning the hard way that dependance on countries like China or even the US for some things just so we can buy them cheaper is a bad idea in the long run.

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1 minute ago, Aristides said:

I would say all those things at some point. We are learning the hard way that dependance on countries like China or even the US for some things just so we can buy them cheaper is a bad idea in the long run.

Can you imagine the cost of living for living in Canada if we had to create all these things domestically though? And that's my point.

Whenever I see the term food security used, it's in the context of food protectionism. It's essentially a tax on Canadian consumers to pay so much for dairy when our biggest ally produces it in the lower rate.

It's a worthwhile conversation to have, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there's a price for everything, and if you want to have security on the level you're talking about then we are essentially building a closed off economy along the lines of a Soviet bloc.

 

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6 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Can you imagine the cost of living for living in Canada if we had to create all these things domestically though? And that's my point.

Whenever I see the term food security used, it's in the context of food protectionism. It's essentially a tax on Canadian consumers to pay so much for dairy when our biggest ally produces it in the lower rate.

It's a worthwhile conversation to have, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there's a price for everything, and if you want to have security on the level you're talking about then we are essentially building a closed off economy along the lines of a Soviet bloc.

 

what about economies of scale tho ?

you are faced with a competitor with twenty times your GDP

and they are actually very protectionist themselves

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9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Can you imagine the cost of living for living in Canada if we had to create all these things domestically though? And that's my point.

Whenever I see the term food security used, it's in the context of food protectionism. It's essentially a tax on Canadian consumers to pay so much for dairy when our biggest ally produces it in the lower rate.

It's a worthwhile conversation to have, I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there's a price for everything, and if you want to have security on the level you're talking about then we are essentially building a closed off economy along the lines of a Soviet bloc.

 

We used to. I have all kinds of things from the sixties and seventies that were made in Canada that we have outsourced to other countries. A closed economy doesn't work but there is no excuse not to protect some essential areas. There is nothing more essential to human life than food and water.

 

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4 minutes ago, Aristides said:

1. We used to. I have all kinds of things from the sixties and seventies that were made in Canada that we have outsourced to other countries.

2. A closed economy doesn't work but there is no excuse not to protect some essential areas. There is nothing more essential to human life than food and water.

1. We have lost competitive advantage with labour costs.  You can't simply turn back the clock and have us complete in manufacturing.  

2. We actually have enough food and water.  Why we protect things is often due to lobbying and not practical economic reasons.

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9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

what about economies of scale tho ?

you are faced with a competitor with twenty times your GDP

and they are actually very protectionist themselves

All countries are... Which is why we negotiate the tariffs away.

The economic advantage of scale works to our advantage as consumers.

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Do we pay too much for dairy or do we just pay a price that reflects the cost of production? I you go to Southern California and see some of their mega dairy farms with thousands of cattle standing out in the sun in dirt paddocks with a few roofs here and there to give them a little shade. Contrast that with the average Canadian farm which is smaller and family owned and where the cows have to be protected from Canadian winters and the other extra costs of operating in such a climate. Do you still pay too much?  Consider also that those smaller family owned farms contribute a lot more to their local economies because all their goods and services are obtained from other local businesses.

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9 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

All countries are... Which is why we negotiate the tariffs away.

The economic advantage of scale works to our advantage as consumers.

but Canadians don't seem to want to negotiate this tariff away

I don't see much opposition to supply management in Canada, it seems quite popular

meanwhile, on the other side of the border, the American dairy farmers want it too

the American dairy farmers want the Canadian system for themselves

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19 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

all of Canada produces 21 billion pounds of milk

just California alone produces 41 billion pounds of milk

in theory, the Americans could easily supply all of Canada's milk

The French have protected their agriculture and as a result have a huge, affordable, high quality variety of cheeses, butter, milk, meat, wine, etc.  Everyone raves about the French culinary lifestyle average French enjoy.  It’s pretty incomparable.  

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13 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The French have protected their agriculture and as a result have a huge, affordable, high quality variety of cheeses, butter, milk, meat, wine, etc.  Everyone raves about the French culinary lifestyle average French enjoy.  It’s pretty incomparable.  

indeed

tariffs are certainly a tax on your own consumers

but there are reasons consumers would be willing to pay that tax

like the usual Canadian response I encounter, is that they just don't trust the American milk

fair enough, if you're willing pay the tax, for whatever reason, that's what you want

like I don't encounter many Canadians who want to stop paying this milk tax

and honestly, I don't notice it, it doesn't break my budget paying $2 a litre instead of $1 a litre

and I don't know how much I trust that American milk neither

if there was a choice, I would probably pay more to buy the local milk

and tell you what, I even notice a taste difference

the American milk does taste funny to me, the Ontario milk tastes better

 

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7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

indeed

tariffs are certainly a tax on your own consumers

but there are reasons consumers would be willing to pay that tax

like the usual Canadian response I encounter, is that they just don't trust the American milk

fair enough, if you're willing pay the tax, for whatever reason, that's what you want

like I don't encounter many Canadians who want to stop paying this milk tax

and honestly, I don't notice it, it doesn't break my budget paying $2 a litre instead of $1 dollar a litre

and I don't know how much I trust that American milk neither

if there was a choice, I would probably pay more to buy the local milk

As our past evidence of high industrial capacity proved, Canada has at times shot it out of the park in aerospace, telecommunications, uranium and minerals, oil and gas, wheat strains and agricultural tech, etc.  We can’t do it all, however, at least not in a sensible, cost effective way without the economy of scale of a high population and high exports.  I think as our population grows (at least for the next 30 years), it’s worth trying to have the capacity in the essential areas.  We saw it with vaccine production.  The Brits moved swiftly to deal with the pandemic and were one of the first countries to give up mandates and restrictions.  

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1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

As our past evidence of high industrial capacity proved, Canada has at times shot it out of the park in aerospace, telecommunications, uranium and minerals, oil and gas, wheat strains and agricultural tech, etc.  We can’t do it all, however, at least not in a sensible, cost effective way without the economy of scale of a high population and high exports.  I think as our population grows (at least for the next 30 years), it’s worth trying to have the capacity in the essential areas.  We saw it with vaccine production.  The Brits moved swiftly to deal with the pandemic and were one of the first countries to give up mandates and restrictions.  

well I am pretty hard on Canada

because Canadian Confederation has become a burden not a boon

but I am an Ontario Sovereignist

Bloc Ontario

I would go quite far to defend Ontario being just the way it is

especially when it comes to food, I think Ontario has the best food in the world

I like the taste of everything ; the Ontario way

Upper Canadian Orangeman to the bone

rjb11070760.jpg?quality=85&strip=all

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6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

well I am pretty hard on Canada

because Canadian Confederation has become a burden not a boon

but I am an Ontario Sovereignist

Bloc Ontario

I would go quite far to defend Ontario being just the way it is

especially when it comes to food, I think Ontario has the best food in the world

I like the taste of everything ; the Ontario way

Upper Canadian Orangeman to the bone

rjb11070760.jpg?quality=85&strip=all

Ontario strawberries, peaches, tomatoes, beef, dairy…Quite impressive. I like buying local and not just to “save the planet.”

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8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Ontario strawberries, peaches, tomatoes, beef, dairy…Quite impressive. I like buying local and not just to “save the planet.”

I just want to save Ontario from the dysfunctional Confederation

it's not the Americans who are bringing us down, it is Ottawa whom is wrecking the provinces

if Quebec can be so independent of Ottawa, then we can be too

and with what we are seeing now from the Canada Act 1982 ?

the Charter of Rights is actually the worst of both worlds

I'm ready to join Quebec in going back to the British North America Act

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8 hours ago, Aristides said:


Do we pay too much for dairy or do we just pay a price that reflects the cost of production?  

Some background:

https://www.macleans.ca/economy/the-truth-about-dairy-farming-in-canada/

There are a lot of industries that have compete internationally.  Dairy Farming isn't one.  If there are advantages to raising dairy cows in warmer weather, then why not do it?

There are lots of things Canada has an advantage in, those things could be negotiated for lower tariffs.  That's basic economics.

And what is called Canadian is not always so, with foreign ownership.

I'm less worried about millionaire families and more about wage earning families.

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“Covid was proof positive of why it had to be this way, and why the world does need a spiritual awakening.

Look at how easily manipulated the average person was.  We watched loved ones turn into zombies before our eyes, and every day employees and companies almost giddy to enforce draconian measures.

People calling the cops on their neighbours for having too many people over and breaking the rules. Society’s descent into full on brown shirt mode was all too easy.

Great Awakening required.”

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17 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Some background:

https://www.macleans.ca/economy/the-truth-about-dairy-farming-in-canada/

There are a lot of industries that have compete internationally.  Dairy Farming isn't one.  If there are advantages to raising dairy cows in warmer weather, then why not do it?

There are lots of things Canada has an advantage in, those things could be negotiated for lower tariffs.  That's basic economics.

And what is called Canadian is not always so, with foreign ownership.

I'm less worried about millionaire families and more about wage earning families.

Gee, I would have thought current supply chain issues and the risk of starvation in many countries because they can't get grain from the Russia and Ukraine would be a wakeup call. In my town, agriculture contributes 3.8 billion to the provincial economy with almost a billion in actual farm gate receipts, 16,000 full time jobs or 23% of all jobs in the city a good percentage of that is from dairy farms which contribute more to the local economy than any other type of farming because of the level of goods and services they require to operate.

You go on about foreign ownership but the vast majority of Canadian dairy farms are family owned. You would rather give your money to foreign factory farms to save a nickel.

Not everything is about saving you the odd buck in the grocery store at the expense of your own economy and access to a secure source of food.

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2 hours ago, Aristides said:

1. Gee, I would have thought current supply chain issues and the risk of starvation in many countries because they can't get grain from the Russia and Ukraine would be a wakeup call. In my town, agriculture contributes 3.8 billion to the provincial economy with almost a billion in actual farm gate receipts, 16,000 full time jobs or 23% of all jobs in the city a good percentage of that is from dairy farms which contribute more to the local economy than any other type of farming because of the level of goods and services they require to operate.

2. You go on about foreign ownership but the vast majority of Canadian dairy farms are family owned. You would rather give your money to foreign factory farms to save a nickel.

3. Not everything is about saving you the odd buck in the grocery store at the expense of your own economy and access to a secure source of food.

1. Maybe, but there are also examples of global trade providing quick solutions.  Free trade is better for overall job growth.

2. For dairy, yes, this is true.  Not for other sectors that would be protected though.  It's not a nickel but dollars paid by every family.

3. It's all about $, and if you want to spend more to mitigate a risk or preserve a value then that's fair but let's look at it.

 

 

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