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3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Trudeau is just one guy

and the office of Prime Minister is not that powerful

it's millions of Canadians who drink this Jonestown Kool-Aid

Trudeau is just pandering to the Woke Green masses in Canada

And Trudeau is just one in a long line of PM's garage selling Canada.

Go back to Mulroney with NAFTA and even further back than that. Some say it started with Diefenbaker and the destruction of the Arrow.

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On 7/28/2022 at 3:59 PM, Zeitgeist said:

No.  The government set up arbitrary limits on cattle production which the courts enforced that are now bringing down the farming sector in the Netherlands.   The EU is gutting the agricultural economy in the Netherlands and the people are powerless to stop it because democracy is so eroded in Europe.  Britain is thankfully out of that deal but still facing international pressures to commit economic suicide.

You underestimate the size of the problem. Netherlands has 3 major cities of more then a million (an many smaller ones) and 50,000 farmers in an area smaller than Nova Scotia.

That is a lot of cow shit and fertilizer spread in the remaining gland. It is not the EU or WEF , it is the Dutch themselves that are seeing what is happening to their ecological systems.

Of course farmers are going to be upset, their livelihood is being threatened but, They have ot take care of the whole country.

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14 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

And Trudeau is just one in a long line of PM's garage selling Canada.

Go back to Mulroney with NAFTA and even further back than that. Some say it started with Diefenbaker and the destruction of the Arrow.

nah, the Arrow was a dumb idea

the F-15 Eagle was coming in 1972

the Arrow was already obsolete in 1959

they had no chance of competing with the Americans, that was a silly idea

Diefenbaker tho did incite the schism between the government and the military

he tried to tell the military to stand down in the Cuban Missile Crisis

and the military mutinied on him, they just ignored the Canadian government and reported to the Americans

this then made the Liberals decide that the military was a political threat

thus they commenced the dismantling of the Canadian military with Amalgamation in 1968

in terms of Mulroney & Free Trade ?

the alternative was to stay outside the American economy and try to beat them head to head

and Canada was getting its ass kicked in that competition

so it was basically an "if you can't beat them, join them" scenario

Edited by Dougie93
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also bear in mind, you're not actually losing jobs to the Americans

the jobs in Canada are going to Mexico

so it wasn't that the Canada -USA Free Trade Deal was a bad idea

that was Mulroney's deal

the NAFTA deal with Mexico did not come until 1994

that was Chretien, not Mulroney

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furthermore

it is now the Americans who have decided that Canada is a competitor

Canada is a subsidized competitor dumping into the American market

so now it is the Americans who want to end Free Trade with Canada

that is going to be a shock, Canada is in no way prepared to get frozen out of the American markets

and the Liberals plan to replace the Americans with Communist China

not only is that lunacy, but the Chinese are also becoming protectionist now

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31 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

nah, the Arrow was a dumb idea

the F-15 Eagle was coming in 1972

the Arrow was already obsolete in 1959

they had no chance of competing with the Americans, that was a silly idea

.........

in terms of Mulroney & Free Trade ?

the alternative was to stay outside the American economy and try to beat them head to head

and Canada was getting its ass kicked in that competition

....so it was basically an "if you can't beat them, give it to them" scenario

The scrapping of the Arrow was at American request. We got Bomarc missiles in return (worst deal ever).

The Arrow was far from obsolete, it was so advanced it had yet to demonstrate all it's capability. Scared the shit out of the Americans.

We got bought.

NAFTA was basically a deal to do away with tariffs between US, Mexico and Canada. We (Canada) eventually allowed (or enabled or scared off, depending who you talk to)manufacturing to US and Mexico. It was another case of Conservatives ass kissing the Americans.

"so it was basically an "if you can't beat them, give it to them" scenario"

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1 minute ago, ExFlyer said:

The scrapping of the Arrow was at American request. We got Bomarc missiles in return (worst deal ever).

The Arrow was far from obsolete, it was so advanced it had yet to demonstrate all it's capability. Scared the shit out of the Americans.

myth

the Arrow was a straight line interceptor, only good  for intercepting Soviet bombers

the Soviet bomber threat was replaced by ICBMs/SLBM's over the pole

the Arrow was not a turning fighter

and by the time it would have entered service finally

the market would have been switching to the F-15 Eagle

but it never would have gone into service, since it was so massively over budget

if the Conservatives hadn't have cancelled it

the Liberals certainly would have when they gutted the whole military in 1968

the Americans just knew it was going nowhere, so they told the Canadians to get real already

 

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like I laugh at how the people who embrace the Arrow myth

ignore the part about the Liberals, who were the ones funding the Arrow

subsequently have gone on to destroy the whole Canadian military right down to the wood

to the point where these lunatics now say

that the role of the Canadian military is "to fight systemic racism & misogyny"

if you want to talk about the Americans scuttling a Canadian military project

entirely for their own interests ?

that was the Americans refusing to allow Canada to buy nuclear powered submarines

because the real threat to Canadian sovereignty in the arctic

is American freedom of navigation

it is the Americans who deny Canada's sovereignty over the Northwest Passage

so the last thing they wanted was Canadian SSN's up there following their submarines around

and even tho the Americans are giving SSN's to Australia

they still wouldn't let Canada have them, for this reason

again tho, since Canada has completely dismantled its own military

clearly Canadians don't care about sovereignty nor national security at all

Canada doesn't even have its own culture nor politics anymore

Canadians are totally absorbed into American culture & politics, replacing their own

so what would even be the point of defending Canada's independence ?

Justin Trudeau is running for Prime Minister of California not Prime Minister of Canada

Canadians are so blinded by America now, they don't even know who they are anymore

Canada is an American protectorate, Canadians have no interest in national defence whatsoever

let's just move on already

Edited by Dougie93
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27 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

The scrapping of the Arrow was at American request. We got Bomarc missiles in return (worst deal ever).

The Arrow was far from obsolete, it was so advanced it had yet to demonstrate all it's capability. Scared the shit out of the Americans.

We got bought.

NAFTA was basically a deal to do away with tariffs between US, Mexico and Canada. We (Canada) eventually allowed (or enabled or scared off, depending who you talk to)manufacturing to US and Mexico. It was another case of Conservatives ass kissing the Americans.

"so it was basically an "if you can't beat them, give it to them" scenario"

There was no way Canada could afford such a project without export sales. We were not only designing and building the airframes but the engines, avionics and weapons as well.  No one else wanted it. The  Arrow was designed as an interceptor to go after manned bombers. ICBM's and SLBM's made those aircraft pretty much redundant. The rest of the world went for their own creations if they had them or aircraft like F-4.

We bought F101's and F104's as well as the Bombarc's. 

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16 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

myth

the Arrow was a straight line interceptor, only good  for intercepting Soviet bombers

the Soviet bomber threat was replaced by ICBMs/SLBM's over the pole

the Arrow was not a turning fighter

and by the time it would have entered service finally

the market would have been switching to the F-15 Eagle

but it never would have gone into service, since it was so massively over budget

if the Conservatives hadn't have cancelled it

the Liberals certainly would have when they gutted the whole military in 1968

the Americans just knew it was going nowhere, so they told the Canadians to get real already

 

Yes, it was designed to be an interceptor for the threat at the time. It was never designed or claimed to be a fighter.

No myth, everyone in aviation knows that.

Canada had none and never got any ICBM and the Bomarc barley could get out of North Bay Ontario. It had no range. LOL

The Eagle F15 was not introduced till 1976 and that was in the US.

We had the F86 Sabre and the CF100 Canuck at the time of the Arrow.

 

 

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Just now, ExFlyer said:

Yes, it was designed to be an interceptor for the threat at the time. It was never designed or claimed to be a fighter.

but it wouldn't have entered service until the 1970's

when those types of interceptors were totally obsolete

although it wouldn't have made it to the 1970's

since the Liberals scrapped the entire Canadian military in 1968

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2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

There was no way Canada could afford such a project without export sales. We were not only designing and building the airframes but the engines, avionics and weapons as well.  No one else wanted it. The  Arrow was designed as an interceptor to go after manned bombers. ICBM's and SLBM's made those aircraft pretty much redundant. The rest of the world went for their own creations if they had them or aircraft like F-4.

We bought F101's and F104's as well as the Bombarc's. 

Cannot say no one wanted it as it had yet to prove itself.

Having said that,  the Arrow was an interceptor and missiles were cheaper.

We got the Voodoo in 1961 as the Americans gave us priority. The CF 104 came online in 1962 and again, by the grace of the Americans

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bear in mind

the whole Arrow plan was not that Canada was going to buy the Arrow

Canada didn't plan to buy many of them at all

the whole plan was that Canada was going to export these fighters around the world

in a competition against the Americans, British & French

we are talking about Canada here, the whole idea was ridiculous

Diefenbaker was right, it was just a big Liberal boondoggle which was never intended to succeed

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2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

but it wouldn't have entered service until the 1970's

when those types of interceptors were totally obsolete

although it wouldn't have made it to the 1970's

since the Liberals scrapped the entire Canadian military in 1968

Yeah , who knows.

It has certainly become the same as the  mythical Unicorn :)

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3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

 

It has certainly become the same as the  mythical Unicorn :)

I don't think that is healthy for Canada

Canada is in serious f8cking trouble

there's way too many unicorns, and no practical plans at all

and this is ultimately what makes Canada totally subservient to the Americans

Canada can't even run its own economy without asking Washington for permission

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14 minutes ago, Aristides said:

There was no way Canada could afford such a project without export sales.

exactly

and  not only would Canada never have the logistics and economies of scale to pull that off

none of the customers would have ever defied their benefactors in Washington to buy Canadian

Canada would not have sold a single Arrow if the Americans were not 100% behind it

Edited by Dougie93
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the latest Canadian Unicorn which is going to fail

is the ridiculous shipbuilding boondoggle

Canada will build exactly zero new Frigates

Canada will be sailing the FFH-330's into the 2040's

then they will rust out, and Canada won't have any frigates at all anymore

never mind warships, Canada can't even make enough CADPAT uniforms nor sleeping bags

Canada can buy the F-35

but only because that is a turnkey solution

the Americans run everything, Canada just provides the pilots to the American training center

Canada is simply not capable of running its own defence programs anymore

if it's not plug & play with everything run by the Americans, it's not happening

Edited by Dougie93
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48 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Canada had none and never got any ICBM and the Bomarc barley could get out of North Bay Ontario. It had no range. LOL

the much more significant aspect

was that the Americans were willing to give Canada nuclear weapons

obviously they saw the Arrow as being pie in the sky

it's not that they feared the Arrow, they just saw it as diverting resources which Canada did not have

on the other hand, they were willing to hand Canada nuclear warheads

yet of course, Canada didn't want them

the peacenik Canadian political class went into conniption fits

never mind that Canada was fully bombed up to drop NATO B61's in Europe

never mind that Canada was fully integrated at Cheyenne Mountain

never mind that Canada gave India nukes with the CANDU plutonium

Canada simply would not accept the American gift of making Canada into a nuclear power

without knee jerk self righteous Anti-Americanism, there is no Canada

Edited by Dougie93
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14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the much more significant aspect

was that the Americans were willing to give Canada nuclear weapons

obviously they saw the Arrow as being pie in the sky

it's not that they feared the Arrow, they just saw it as diverting resources which Canada did not have

on the other hand, they were willing to hand Canada nuclear warheads

yet of course, Canada didn't want them

the peacenik Canadian political class went into conniption fits

never mind that Canada was fully bombed up to drop NATO B61's in Europe

never mind that Canada was fully integrated at Cheyenne Mountain

never mind that Canada gave India nukes with the CANDU plutonium

Canada simply would not accept the American gift of making Canada into a nuclear power

without knee jerk self righteous Anti-Americanism, there is no Canada

I was stationed in Comox in the early 70's.

Canada had nukes. Well sort of. 

We had Voodoos armed with nukes in the QRA's (quick reaction areas hangars). 2 voodoos loaded and ready all the time. There was a contingent of American military police and weapons specialists.

We had them in North Bay and Bagotville as well.

It was always an open secret but no one would admit or say for sure. I think they left in 1984.

Oh and, the range of the Bomarcs was something like 500 miles. What they were doing positioned in North Bay made no sense to anyone.  maybe to protect Canada;s main NORAD base??

Edited by ExFlyer
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5 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I was stationed in Comox in the early 70's.

Canada had nukes. Well sort of. 

We had Voodoos armed with nukes in the QRA's (quick reaction areas hangars). 2 voodoos loaded and ready all the time. There was a contingent of American military police and weapons specialists.

We had them in North Bay and Bagotville as well.

It was always an open secret but no one would admit or say for sure. I think they left in 1984.

Oh and, the range of the Bomarcs was something like 500 miles. What they were doing positioned in North Bay made no sense to anyone.  maybe to protect Canada;s main NORAD base??

American nukes on Canadian soil, cue the Canadian pearl clutching and fainting spells

 defending North Bay was likely the only purpose

North Bay was the only target worth the Soviets effort to concentrate on

NORAD alternate command post

 

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I was on course at Borden once, and they actually put us in the nuclear bunker there as barracks

it was pretty cool actually, I was surprised how well maintained it was

it seemed fully operational to me, ready to accept politicians at any moment

those bunkers are actually overbuilt by today's standards

the vast majority of warheads now, are in the 100-200 kiloton range

those bunkers were built for multimegaton yields

only the Chinese have any of those left, and they wouldn't waste one on Camp Borden

Edited by Dougie93
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3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

How would protectionism help this situation?

Well, we should know by now that allowing other countries to gain control of strategic resources generally turns out badly. China has made a point of doing exactly that and Europe is finding out to its reliance on Russia for energy wasn't such a great idea. The idea that a country should willingly give up the ability to feed itself doesn't get much more short sighted.

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1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Well, we should know by now that allowing other countries to gain control of strategic resources generally turns out badly. China has made a point of doing exactly that and Europe is finding out to its reliance on Russia for energy wasn't such a great idea. The idea that a country should willingly give up the ability to feed itself doesn't get much more short sighted.

I don't know what the specifics are here though.   Food protectionism is limited at some point, how would you do it?

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