End of democracy project: Canada

[myata]

Well, maybe of serious, in earnest imitation. Starting as a colonial dominion, there was an effort to reform, or decorate the colonial management structure into a democratic form. By adding attributes and decorations, writing texts but not changing much in the essence. And now that path is at its end and nothing new can happen. The detachment of the ruling elites from the reality of life in the country is almost accomplished. The gap between purportedly "representatives" (with 190K salary base) and a regular citizen (approx. 30K median) is astonishing, indicative of Latin America, not an advanced democratic society based on principles of shared universal prosperity. And it's been at this trajectory for a while, long while with elites happily managing their own affairs without any essential feedback from the society, never mind token elections.

We got it all wrong. Democracy, it is not about who's sitting in the chair, what stamp and label they carry. It's not even about attributes such as gatherings and elections. It's about effective instruments and mechanisms that give people the power to create and change their country and their future. And of those we have only the old ones, from the times colonial. Thought and designed in, and for 18-19 centuries. A scandal and inquiry decades belated does not change anything.

The project is complete now, with the happy twins, bureaucracy heads discovering that they can use current events as an excuse for massive propaganda of fear and compliance. Where can you go, from here? These can be the last breaths of democracy in the country, on the federal and to a large extent, provincial level definitely not progress. Nothing living can progress and advance into the future having lost the ability to change and adapt, and improve.

The decorations, bells and whistles may linger for a while yet. It won't change much, for all that matters.

And no it's no longer just theory. The events this winter follow a well familiar script: authoritarian, heavy handed management; citizen's backlash; suppression of protests and persecution. With nothing learned at the end.

A policy debate, really. Can you give us an example of such a "debate", six months back? How would you like a one-way "debate" where what you say is ignored, filtered out but you have to obey with no explanations or accountability? They don't see what's wrong. All is working fine as is - for them. No: not good, for the evolution. Dead end.

Edited May 1, 2022 by myata

[myata]

The democracy project in Canada is at an evolutionary dead end: there are no directions for meaningful, positive change. Covid was a test and now we know not just from the theory but for a fact. Once in a while, in the year before the ritual of democracy (whose real meaning long forgotten) the exalted ones would drop on the lowly populace (far) down below a few cookies (what, don't say I didn't predict it) and quickly, back to the business of single handed governing with no checks, oversight or accountability. Sometimes it works in evolution, but only as a rare and mysterious exception. Should we bet on it?

[Michael Hardner]

I really enjoy the lack of freedom and loss of my rights.  I'm not allowed to vote or say anything about the government, and I find that pleasurable.

 

[West]

Canada has never been a true democracy. The power centers have always abused your average farmer. It's more like a mob mentaility where Ontario steals from everyone else

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I really enjoy the lack of freedom and loss of my rights.  I'm not allowed to vote or say anything about the government, and I find that pleasurable.

 

Baaaaaa!

[myata]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I really enjoy the lack of freedom and loss of my rights. 

Good for you, to enjoy what you don't have. Try to get a single meaningful answer from your government wherever and whatever it is NOW, before a commission of inquiry X decades later with some scathing revelation if you're in luck paid for outrageously out of your pocket to a retired judge with an outrageous pension (out of your pocket). And back to business. All is going well. Change is not possible.

Edited May 3, 2022 by myata

[Nationalist]

Canadian "democracy" needs an enema. The politicians have become too comfortable with their positions and the support they get from our failed news media. What Canada needs is someone who doesn't care for what CBC thinks and works for the people of Canada, instead of working for The Power Corp and Globalist interests.

This is why, at present, I'm leaning toward the PPC as a federal government. Its time for an outsider to take the reigns and put the horses back on the road.

[myata]

Sure, the mainstream parties are deeply entrenched in the status quo and cannot, and will not be, deliberately and consciously, agents of change. Sadly, preservation of the untenable status quo even at a cost of the country's future has become for them the main objective (winning elections is secondary, everyone will have a turn).

But it's more than just bringing in an outsider; without a deep change in the system they'll be as easily consumed and digested by the bureaucracy. The outsider has to become the agent of meaningful change, present, discuss with the society and define the necessary changes and then obtain the mandate to implement them. Otherwise, only a dead end ahead. The way of the dinosaurs. Pandemic spending, election spending, on Ontario today, disability allowance is $1,100 and let's ask government to double. MP salary, $15K bare minimum. This isn't just musings and concerns. This is the third world and it's already here.

[cougar]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Sadly, preservation of the untenable status quo even at a cost of the country's future has become for them the main objective (winning elections is secondary, everyone will have a turn).

But it's more than just bringing in an outsider; without a deep change in the system they'll be as easily consumed and digested by the bureaucracy. The outsider has to become the agent of meaningful change, present, discuss with the society and define the necessary changes and then obtain the mandate to implement them. Otherwise, only a dead end ahead. The way of the dinosaurs. Pandemic spending, election spending, on Ontario today, disability allowance is $1,100 and let's ask government to double. MP salary, $15K bare minimum. This isn't just musings and concerns. This is the third world and it's already here.

What do you suggest should be done?

[myata]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

What do you suggest should be done?

Not what but who. First, it should be relevant, the society should have an understanding and demand for the change. Secondly, there has to be an agent of change, for example, a new party. With both, it could obtain, eventually, the mandate for the change. Without either it'll be another talking head show or useless fluff like Liberal's "reforms".

[cougar]

1 minute ago, myata said:

Not what but who. First, it should be relevant, the society should have an understanding and demand for the change. Secondly, there has to be an agent of change, for example, a new party. With both, it could obtain, eventually, the mandate for the change. Without either it'll be another talking head show or useless fluff like Liberal's "reforms".

"who?"  because you cannot answer the "what?"  ??

What new political parties are you talking about?  You think there is one that somehow runs independently from the big business and banks?  One that will make all those positive changes to little people without affecting where business takes place?

You have the Global Market Economy and free borders where the rich can go anywhere.  They can fly like bees from one flower to the next to suck their juices dry.

But you keep talking and mentioning the MP salaries

[myata]

3 minutes ago, cougar said:

"who?"  because you cannot answer the "what?"  ??

No: because without who (the actor) what becomes pointless and useless. No change can happen without the agent of change. You're free to think that everything is predetermined by big business, aliens, or whatever. But I chose not to - because I can and it's more fun.

And sure the salaries are entirely relevant, as a mirror. For example MP salary to median citizen now at 5 something. In Argentina, it's 4.5.

[cougar]

3 minutes ago, myata said:

No: because without who (the actor) what becomes pointless and useless. No change can happen without the agent of change. You're free to think that everything is predetermined by big business, aliens, or whatever. But I chose not to - because I can and it's more fun.

And sure the salaries are entirely relevant, as a mirror. For example MP salary to median citizen now at 5 something. In Argentina, it's 4.5.

If you want to add a "who" to the "what", it is your choice.

The question was:

What do you suggest should be done?

[myata]

31 minutes ago, cougar said:

What do you suggest should be done?

It has to be first who, then what. Just doesn't work any other way. In the meanwhile, the "MP factor":

Canada: 5.14

Argentina: 4.5

Finland: 2.85

Norway: 2.58

So what does it look like? Does it look like a first tier democracy or like third world? And what did Covid performance look like by the way, with curfews and lockdowns? And maybe it, the negative correlation of MP factor to performance, only a coincidence? Nothing to do with the third world, really?

Funny that no one is noticing these coincidences, not even interested. Talk about agents of change. Change isn't possible, perfect!

Edited May 3, 2022 by myata

[cougar]

48 minutes ago, myata said:

It has to be first who, then what. Just doesn't work any other way. In the meanwhile, the "MP factor":

Canada: 5.14

Argentina: 4.5

Finland: 2.85

Norway: 2.58

So what does it look like? Does it look like a first tier democracy or like third world? And what did Covid performance look like by the way, with curfews and lockdowns? And maybe it, the negative correlation of MP factor to performance, only a coincidence? Nothing to do with the third world, really?

Funny that no one is noticing these coincidences, not even interested. Talk about agents of change. Change isn't possible, perfect!

You keep beating around the bush and still no answer to my question with or without a "who".

 

[myata]

13 hours ago, cougar said:

You keep beating around the bush and still no answer to my question with or without a "who".

There's no point in change for the sake of a change. Unfortunately that's the only type of change many of us here understand - put another, "new" face in the system's chair and look, miracles. No, of course. And that was the reason for it to be designed this way: the face changes, but nothing else. Change is not possible, and anathema (to the happy system).

So to begin a real change one has to decide what is the problem and the desired outcome, not the face. To me they are obvious: it's outdated, archaic and obsolete; it does not do its job and that, at an outrageous cost to the owners, the citizens; closeness; lack of accountability, at that, assumed and presumed, bold and deliberate look at Covid management; and the long time entrenched culture of privilege and entitlement (that is clearly illustrated by numbers above). To approach these deep century-rooted problems we need to form an understanding, and the agent for a deep transformation of the political system, to make it:

- fully accountable, responsible and fully transparent to the citizens. No self-appointed privileges and "prerogatives", period.

- modern, reflecting a complex and diverse structure and interest of this century, rather than 18th.

- complete elimination of the culture of privilege and entitlement and any traditions and institutions associated with it. Politicians in all jobs at all levels work for the citizens there's no other reason for them to be there, and they cannot be allowed to forget that.

Clearly none of this is possible if and when all affairs in the country are run from a single office with near absolute powers. Why would it want any change? From this understanding will come specific projects and items, no need to jump ahead. The condition is the same though, social demand and an agent of change. Nothing could and will happen by itself except decay and degradation, by the law of entropy.

Edited May 4, 2022 by myata

[myata]

Why isn't anybody talking about the "MP factor" problem? Why isn't anybody noticing it, looking away, la-la-la?

Is it some kind of shameful little secret to be shy of?

What stratospheric heights will it have to hit (and it will, why not?) to attract the attention of the society? Nigeria's? Honduras? What can be done about it, anything?

Is it still a democracy, when nobody cares about such things? Can it be?

Edited May 4, 2022 by myata

[cougar]

6 hours ago, myata said:

There's no point in change for the sake of a change. Unfortunately that's the only type of change many of us here understand - put another, "new" face in the system's chair and look, miracles. No, of course. And that was the reason for it to be designed this way: the face changes, but nothing else. Change is not possible, and anathema (to the happy system).

So to begin a real change one has to decide what is the problem and the desired outcome, not the face. To me they are obvious: it's outdated, archaic and obsolete; it does not do its job and that, at an outrageous cost to the owners, the citizens; closeness; lack of accountability, at that, assumed and presumed, bold and deliberate look at Covid management; and the long time entrenched culture of privilege and entitlement (that is clearly illustrated by numbers above). To approach these deep century-rooted problems we need to form an understanding, and the agent for a deep transformation of the political system, to make it:

- fully accountable, responsible and fully transparent to the citizens. No self-appointed privileges and "prerogatives", period.

- modern, reflecting a complex and diverse structure and interest of this century, rather than 18th.

- complete elimination of the culture of privilege and entitlement and any traditions and institutions associated with it. Politicians in all jobs at all levels work for the citizens there's no other reason for them to be there, and they cannot be allowed to forget that.

Clearly none of this is possible if and when all affairs in the country are run from a single office with near absolute powers. Why would it want any change? From this understanding will come specific projects and items, no need to jump ahead. The condition is the same though, social demand and an agent of change. Nothing could and will happen by itself except decay and degradation, by the law of entropy.

Thanks for trying to put thoughts into it, but I still do not see what you will do to change the system.

You tell us what you want to see happen, but seem to be still at a loss about the actions needed to get there.

The MP's you are constantly talking about measure their incomes with those of businessmen running a successful business.  If they do not get paid nearly as much, they say, they will go in the private sector.  Now go figure out why in the private sector a CEO or an owner will want to make 11 times or more the income of his  / her employees.  See how you can fix this factor, which might have an impact on the MP factor that bothers you so much.

[myata]

43 minutes ago, cougar said:

You tell us what you want to see happen, but seem to be still at a loss about the actions needed to get there.

No loss here, but you seem to have problems grasping execution of complex projects. It begins with an investment, part(ies) that seek and prepared to put time and effort into the necessary change. Everything else is either literature or dreaming. And MP situation that I'm trying to bring to attention is one, but very clear indicator of a runaway political system absorbed and locked into itself with no relation to the reality of the broader society. No, it makes no sense to compare our citizen representatives to private CEOs and managers, even if in their shell they like to see it that way. As a citizen I don't need that and shouldn't be forced to pay for that; and attempts to force, impose such entrenched systems on the society always fail eventually, one way or another.

Edited May 4, 2022 by myata

[Queenmandy85]

Myata, you love to talk gibberish and it is very entertaining, but I have told you many times how to bring about what ever change you want, but you refuse to act. You say you want the PPC but you are, by your own words, a socialist.

Canada has never been, nor ever strived to be a democracy. We are a Constitutional Monarchy. We do not elect "representatives." We elect Members of Parliament. MP's are elected to make decisions on our behalf because they have the time and resources to make informed decisions. They have the advantage of getting advice from a professional civil service. MP's are usually from the legal profession because much of their work involves law. As lawyers, they not only put their careers on hold but take a massive pay cut. Having worked in the lending branch of two major banks many years ago, I've seen the debt load many politicians carry. Politics is not a job you go into to make money.

[cougar]

3 minutes ago, myata said:

No loss here, but you seem to have problems grasping execution of complex projects. It begins with an investment, part(ies) that seek and prepared to put time and effort into the necessary change. Everything else is either literature or dreaming. And MP situation that I'm trying to bring to attention is one, but very clear indicator of a runaway political system absorbed and locked into itself with no relation to the reality of the broader society. No, it makes no sense to compare our citizen representatives to private CEOs and managers, even if in their shell they like to see it that way. As a citizen I don't need that and shouldn't be forced to pay for that; and attempts to force, impose such entrenched systems on the society always fail eventually, one way or another.

1.  This is why they are sending you overseas to complete those complex projects.  Hi-hi-hi

2. You missed the point completely.  I do not compare them to business managers, but they do and they want to be just as rich.    

Sharpen up your pencil and show us how you intend to execute the complex project of undoing capitalism.

[Queenmandy85]

14 minutes ago, myata said:

No loss here, but you seem to have problems grasping execution of complex projects.

Myata, you continue to have problems using plain English. You are way above my level of education and I need you to talk down to me. To put it bluntly, I'm a bit thick, so could you maybe at least provide Englis sub-titles so I know what you are trying to communicate?

[myata]

19 minutes ago, cougar said:

You missed the point completely.  I do not compare them to business managers, but they do and they want to be just as rich.   

Of course they do only the cause is different; they do it because they are detached from the reality. Mao, Stalin were detached too and they were not capitalists by any measure.

[myata]

31 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Myata, you love to talk gibberish and it is very entertaining,

Queenmandy, if it walks and talks like a duck you know what it is, right? So if in a country MPs who don't do much, don't decide anything are paid, out of public pocket, relative to a regular citizen, like in Honduras, that country has to be Honduras. This is only logic, I insist.

Edited May 4, 2022 by myata

[myata]

32 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Canada has never been, nor ever strived to be a democracy.

Thanks, now we are in agreement (see the topic).