End of democracy project: Canada

[Nationalist]

16 minutes ago, cougar said:

No. He did not use all these dots.  I replaced some of the less relevant content with them.  You can still read his unredacted post on the previous page, which should produce the same effect.

Oh...so you took liberties with someone else's post? Hmmm...

[myata]

Trudeau's infamous "election reform" is a great illustration of the status quo. A critical matter for the country, democracy and the future. And the guy gets to decide it single-handedly like some Sun King "will not be in your mandate". And, in the society total silence not our business but can we have another long weekend please. And Conservatives (true to the name) opposed anything sounding like a real change on the spot (could be running the government now, with most popular vote).

This looks just like what it is: an old age. Talk, still can and a lot of that; do, not so much. Past its prime. Not much interesting or exciting ahead. Please surprise me. Even better, prove wrong.

Edited May 5, 2022 by myata

[cougar]

7 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Well let's see. It got me beat up a couple times as a young lad. And yes, I lost a job once because of my refusal to bend.

What do I do? I manage the creation of data centres. Cloud stuff.

Glad ur clean.

And how does this change our system?  How does it make the distribution of wealth more fair and our environment richer and cleaner ?

We have all had cases where we expressed our opinions and this had consequences for us and typically nobody else.  Nothing changed.

 

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, cougar said:

And how does this change our system?  How does it make the distribution of wealth more fair and our environment richer and cleaner ?

We have all had cases where we expressed our opinions and this had consequences for us and typically nobody else.  Nothing changed.

 

How does cloud technology change our systems? Perhaps you've heard of Twitter? Or even this site?

I have no interest in redistributing wealth. I'm interested in growing MY wealth. I also have little to no interest in failed green bullshit. Come back and ask me when the tech is there to power our society. Until then...we're wasting financial resources better spent on research.

I don't know. I spend time discussing with you because I hope you'll come to see my point of view. Should you do that, I've made a change. I also vote...which does create change.

[cougar]

10 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

How does cloud technology change our systems? Perhaps you've heard of Twitter? Or even this site?

I have no interest in redistributing wealth. I'm interested in growing MY wealth. I also have little to no interest in failed green bullshit. Come back and ask me when the tech is there to power our society. Until then...we're wasting financial resources better spent on research.

I don't know. I spend time discussing with you because I hope you'll come to see my point of view. Should you do that, I've made a change. I also vote...which does create change.

Why do you even bother posting under this thread then? 

If you go into post number 1, you will find out that the author is concerned with the growing gap between the rich and super rich (which the author mistakenly identifies as MPs) and the rest of us to which I asked the author what he thinks can be done to change things around.

You seem to be going on a tangent for the sake of posting without contributing to the original topic or subject.

Edited May 5, 2022 by cougar

[myata]

I don't care much about redistribution and it won't solve many problems. The factor shows though, like an indicator slip the state of our public management system. And it shows that it is detached, self-absorbed and isolated, it doesn't receive or accept feedback from the society. And that means that there's only one possible direction: stagnation. While there's still public money, they'll be spent mostly of on the system itself and some trivial quasi-improvements. And as soon as they run out it's hard stop, third world and back to beaver hunting. In two centuries the society has not thought about inventing and developing alternative, parallel frameworks and foundations for universal prosperity. And the political system is interested for a long while now, only in preservation of its status quo that serves it perfectly, and it naturally sees any change as an unwanted threat to it.

[Nationalist]

32 minutes ago, cougar said:

Why do you even bother posting under this thread then? 

If you go into post number 1, you will find out that the author is concerned with the growing gap between the rich and super rich (which the author mistakenly identifies as MPs) and the rest of us to which I asked the author what he thinks can be done to change things around.

You seem to be going on a tangent for the sake of posting without contributing to the original topic or subject.

Well then cougar...quit replying.

[cougar]

13 minutes ago, myata said:

I don't care much about redistribution and it won't solve many problems. The factor shows though, like an indicator slip the state of our public management system. And it shows that it is detached, self-absorbed and isolated, it doesn't receive or accept feedback from the society.(1) And that means that there's only one possible direction: stagnation. While there's still public money, they'll be spent mostly of on the system itself and some trivial quasi-improvements. And as soon as they run out it's hard stop, third world and back to beaver hunting. In two centuries the society has not thought about inventing and developing alternative, parallel frameworks and foundations for universal prosperity. And the political system is interested for a long while now, only in preservation of its status quo that serves it perfectly, and it naturally sees any change as an unwanted threat to it.

1) We live in a capitalist system, where the key is exploitation; not a socialist system, where the key is supposedly equality.  With this in mind, when the gap between the super rich and the middle class grows, the politicians manage to at least preserve their buying power by getting salary increases comparable with inflation or greater.

2) The public money, those 332 billion in 2019 came from both collection of taxes and from the disposition of public resources which are not renewable.  When you sell the land once, it is sold, you will not be able to sell it a second time.  What you /they get is the property tax on this land and taxes on revenues from harvesting again non-renewable assets.

When we hit the hard stop, it will be at a time, when our world is much smaller and when there is not much left to sell.

[myata]

1 hour ago, cougar said:

We live in a capitalist system, where the key is exploitation; not a socialist system, where the key is supposedly equality. 

I disagree and don't accept the ideological angle. Then, nobody yet has been able to show a functional socialist system without gross abuses and with true equality (please don't mention Sweden). This is about much more fundamental than any human-made notions and distinctions: the ability to change, to adapt to the changing world around us that means to evolve. We wanted and deliberately or carelessly and thoughtlessly built a system insulated from the world and the need to change with it. And the longer we want to pretend and convince ourselves that everything is going great and as it should be, the deeper and harder the disconnect will be when we'll finally have to notice it. And nobody promised us that it could be fixed on the spot by throwing at it some billions.

Edited May 5, 2022 by myata

[cougar]

4 hours ago, myata said:

I disagree and don't accept the ideological angle. Then, nobody yet has been able to show a functional socialist system without gross abuses and with true equality (please don't mention Sweden). This is about much more fundamental than any human-made notions and distinctions: the ability to change, to adapt to the changing world around us that means to evolve. We wanted and deliberately or carelessly and thoughtlessly built a system insulated from the world and the need to change with it. And the longer we want to pretend and convince ourselves that everything is going great and as it should be, the deeper and harder the disconnect will be when we'll finally have to notice it. And nobody promised us that it could be fixed on the spot by throwing at it some billions.

You should have stopped with the second sentence before adding all that gibberish.

There is no capitalist system without gross abuses either.

Socialism did not work because those equal people started believing that they are not equal and those that were smarter and worked harder should be rewarded more.  Since they all got about the same, they thought, why work harder if you still get the same, am I stupid? So there came laziness.  But nobody worked on Saturdays and Sundays

Capitalism - unlimited "growth" taking over the healthy ecosystem like plague to generate millions, billions or trillions in the pocket of some crazy mafia, money they will soon be able to buy nothing with.

Let's get back to your gibberish.

If you tell us wealth distribution and MP salaries are not the subject of this thread of yours, or what is bothering you with our stale system, I can honestly get no clue what you are inferring to in your rant above.  What is "not going great"?   What are you trying to change?

[myata]

8 hours ago, cougar said:

There is no capitalist system without gross abuses either.

If you have nothing to contribute to this topic, please don't derail it. "Abuses" aren't all same. There are millions in concentration camps, killing camps and criminal invasion wars abuses. Between Stalin's socialism and Canada or even U.S. capitalism a moral, ethical, common sense and any imaginable choice is obvious for anyone with a shred of common sense left.

[cougar]

4 hours ago, myata said:

If you have nothing to contribute to this topic, please don't derail it. 

You got to be the greatest bullshitter that ever was!  What is to derail in something that had no meaning in post one.

I asked you :    What is "not going great"?    Since what you are wining about is completely unclear to me.

I can tell you one thing though.  You are dishonest and unethical on this forum, but you bitch about some MP doing the same to you!

 

[myata]

42 minutes ago, cougar said:

I can tell you one thing though. 

Sure you told it. And now just maybe you can move on to discussing the virtues of socialism, real or imaginary to a more fitting place? Because it hasn't been mentioned nor intended not even thought of for a briefest moment in the OP? Funny/ridiculous how apologists of totalitarianism assume any problem or issue in a free society as an automatic argument in their favor. No, no your idols and their acts are pure and absolute abominations, there are no arguments, ethical, legal or plain basic humanity that can absolve or rationalize that. Between Canada's sleepy complacency, U.S. shark capitalism and Stalin's worker paradise I'll chose the former two 1000 times out of a thousand without a second thought in a blink of an eye.

[cougar]

47 minutes ago, myata said:

Sure you told it. And now just maybe you can move on to discussing the virtues of socialism, real or imaginary to a more fitting place? Because it hasn't been mentioned nor intended not even thought of for a briefest moment in the OP? Funny/ridiculous how apologists of totalitarianism assume any problem or issue in a free society as an automatic argument in their favor. No, no your idols and their acts are pure and absolute abominations, there are no arguments, ethical, legal or plain basic humanity that can absolve or rationalize that. Between Canada's sleepy complacency, U.S. shark capitalism and Stalin's worker paradise I'll chose the former two 1000 times out of a thousand without a second thought in a blink of an eye.

I can't understand the issues you have with the current system from your post.

Thought it was the distribution of wealth, now you say it is not.

If you can't explain what you mean, posting here is a waste of everyone's time.  Maybe a doctor can figure it out for you?

[myata]

On second thought, I have to correct myself. The connection indeed exists. The connection is that the problem of socialism is the problem of public management of Canada, that is an outdated, relic system insulated from reality, averse to any change and blatantly avoiding accountability, raised to the absolute, total degree. Where we don't have much accountability in public management for the reasons above, in socialist anything it, accountability is not possible in principle because nothing independent, not completely dependent on the will of the central committee can exist. Socialism is a prime recipe for totalitarianism, no need for different words. We may still be getting there. But if we do, it's going to take a while.

[cougar]

9 hours ago, myata said:

On second thought, I have to correct myself.

You may have to correct the title of your thread, your first post, your second post, your third post and each one after that

In this thread you are like one rotten apple where there is not one sound piece left.

I remember I liked many of your posts before, but wonder what happened to you.

[Zeitgeist]

9 hours ago, myata said:

On second thought, I have to correct myself. The connection indeed exists. The connection is that the problem of socialism is the problem of public management of Canada, that is an outdated, relic system insulated from reality, averse to any change and blatantly avoiding accountability, raised to the absolute, total degree. Where we don't have much accountability in public management for the reasons above, in socialist anything it, accountability is not possible in principle because nothing independent, not completely dependent on the will of the central committee can exist. Socialism is a prime recipe for totalitarianism, no need for different words. We may still be getting there. But if we do, it's going to take a while.

The bottom line is that property and freedom are mutually inclusive.  You really can’t have one without the other.  People must be self-made and able to acquire what the market is willing to pay for their work.  Without that fundamental supply and demand capitalist truth, there can be no liberty.  People must be free and the role of the state must be curtailed, especially in this era of government overreach.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[cougar]

30 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The bottom line is that property and freedom are mutually inclusive.  You really can’t have one without the other.  People must be self-made and able to acquire what the market is willing to pay for their work.  Without that fundamental supply and demand capitalist truth, there can be no liberty.  People must be free and the role of the state must be curtailed, especially in this era of government overreach.

The only problem I see with this statement is, people are not like lions, tigers, bears, buffalo and so on, to get the "property" that matches their strength and effort.  We have created a capitalist system where some can be grossly overpaid at the expense of leaving others with no property at all.  Not only that, but we have created a system based on constant growth, expansion and destruction, that is unsustainable and will eventually collapse.

Edited May 7, 2022 by cougar

[myata]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

People must be free and the role of the state must be curtailed, especially in this era of government overreach.

Isn't it a sad self-fulfilling prophecy of growth and decay, as everything with living things? It begins with the claim of freedom and own place under the sun; with freedom comes prosperity; with it, entertainment, circuses - and then, dependency; dependency is the opposite of independence, from owners of our future we become employees fully dependent on the wish of the President. And then he/she wishes to put us in the mask - for as long as necessary (who knows that) or ever. Ironic, no?

[Zeitgeist]

8 hours ago, cougar said:

The only problem I see with this statement is, people are not like lions, tigers, bears, buffalo and so on, to get the "property" that matches their strength and effort.  We have created a capitalist system where some can be grossly overpaid at the expense of leaving others with no property at all.  Not only that, but we have created a system based on constant growth, expansion and destruction, that is unsustainable and will eventually collapse.

Well in a healthy liberal-democracy, working people dedicate a modest amount of income in the form of taxation to pay for a social safety net to protect the disabled, elderly, the catastrophically ill, and other victims of circumstance.  We decided a long time ago that only government can provide essential infrastructure, education, and even basic healthcare.  However, we have given government too much license and control over our daily lives.  Government now funds much of our media, influencing social attitudes to an extreme degree.  It regularly violates our Constitution to “protect” us from ourselves.

Our government has demonstrated that it doesn’t trust the people upon whose support it’s supposed to rely for power.  Many people now feel that they have lost control of their lives.  They’re resigned to waiting for the next public health directive and indoctrination session from the equity officer.  Demonstrate too much independence and risk having your account frozen — social media account or bank account.  Thought is handed down to us from international experts and organizations.  When the people start to pipe up too much about government overreach or assaults on people’s personal choices, movements, and associations, government portrays the opposition as fringe and unacceptable.  The fear narrative is amplified about health and safety.  The oppression returns.

Bloated government salaries are just another example of government overreach and skewing of free markets. When people are compensated based what people are willing to pay, meeting real market demand, these problems of Soviet-style government waste and grift are less likely. Don’t let government get too big. Watch government overspending and intervention. There’s such a thing as too many government programs.

Edited May 7, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[myata]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

We decided a long time ago that only government can provide essential infrastructure, education, and ...

Thanks for bringing a great point. Note that this is not the only option. There's at least two others. One, even with assured safety net and basic services they are implemented and provided by private business subject to standards of availability and quality, and government is only a thin and efficient coordination layer. And with modern technologies it can be really thin, and very efficient.

The second option is a network of cooperatives, a whole new sector of cooperative economy. They could provide essential services of higher quality than governments (no incentive to improve), at lower cost than private business (no CEO bonuses) and no need for super-expensive bureaucracy overhead whose only function is to carry directive from one management layer to another. As a bonus paying good compensation to the owners with great incentives to improve services and prosperity.

So this system we have is here by intent and by choice. No, it's not a given and no again, nobody said that it's the only one imaginable in existence. Evolution is a choice, just as stagnation.

[Zeitgeist]

10 minutes ago, myata said:

Thanks for bringing a great point. Note that this is not the only option. There's at least two others. One, even with assured safety net and basic services they are implemented and provided by private business subject to standards of availability and quality, and government is only a thin and efficient coordination layer. And with modern technologies it can be really thin, and very efficient.

The second option is a network of cooperatives, a whole new sector of cooperative economy. They could provide essential services of higher quality than governments (no incentive to improve), at lower cost than private business (no CEO bonuses) and no need for super-expensive bureaucracy overhead whose only function is to carry directive from one management layer to another. As a bonus paying good compensation to the owners with great incentives to improve services and prosperity.

So this system we have is here by intent and by choice. No, it's not a given and no again, nobody said that it's the only one imaginable in existence. Evolution is a choice, just as stagnation.

Very true.  We should be free to explore the widest range of funding and service arrangements.  Governments do some of this with P3’s.  NGO’s, P3’s, non-profits, and even totally for-profit private businesses (in a competitive free market) can be better and more efficient service providers than government.  On the other hand, I hate when government has in-house personnel that could handle a job but the organization pays consultants or out-sources the work simply because it can.  These bureaucrats are well paid.  Of whom much is given much is expected.  

[myata]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

On the other hand, I hate when government has in-house personnel that could handle a job but the organization pays consultants or out-sources the work simply because it can.

That is in the nature of a closed entity insulated from the reality and competition. It will always reward itself as much as possible and do, as little as it can get away with. Just natural.

[myata]

Election time, posters with cute faces exciting time... wait. What exactly would change with another face, a random one from the street on the poster? Would it push the button pointed and appointed by the Central Committee less efficiently or confidently?

The Central Committee recruits faces to put up a good facade and rule without controls or accountability for as long as possible. Buying their loyalty with (over) generous privileges obscene when set against the reality of the country. What anything wrong in this description? A conflict of interests, obviously. But try to throw a stone randomly in the public management system and not to hit a conflict of interest of some sort. Remember, "independent" attorney general (and justice system)? And we like it that way because that's how colonial management system was set two or three hundred years back and why fix it?

[WestCanMan]

On 5/2/2022 at 5:00 PM, myata said:

The democracy project in Canada is at an evolutionary dead end: there are no directions for meaningful, positive change. Covid was a test and now we know not just from the theory but for a fact. Once in a while, in the year before the ritual of democracy (whose real meaning long forgotten) the exalted ones would drop on the lowly populace (far) down below a few cookies (what, don't say I didn't predict it) and quickly, back to the business of single handed governing with no checks, oversight or accountability. Sometimes it works in evolution, but only as a rare and mysterious exception. Should we bet on it?

I've reminded people many times that in the grand scheme of things, democracy is just a blip on the radar, but people tend to think that it's guaranteed to last forever and that there are no internal or external threats to it. "We can just worry about gender pronouns while the rest of the world admires us from afar."

Canada and the US are leaderless right now in terms of foreign policy and military readiness, but on the domestic front we're experiencing dangerous levels of control over the media & judiciary by regimes which are hostile to all of the checks and balances which make a democracy possible. Somehow our gov't is trading us self-loathing and identity politics for democracy. It's a sad joke that's playing out like a slow motion train wreck. 

Freedom of the press is an indispensable component of democracy, but fawning sycophant leftists cheer for Trudeau when he gives the CBC $675M for favourable coverage, gives $600M to "select media outlets" before the 2019 election, and then gives another $61M to top-secret media outlets "to ensure accurate election coverage" in the 2021 election. Even some leftistThey are pleasantly surprised every time the RCMP throws a Rebel News reporter to the ground, or when social media censors the truth and shadow-bans conservatives for being correct. "But he's so woke! How can he be the bad guy? His scandals are ok because he gives us license to slander our political opponents!"

I don't think of Liberal Party of Canada flunkies as Canadians with different priorities. At their very best they're useful idiots and propaganda victims.