Environmentalism and the Green utopia: Does it make sense?

[Moonbox]

On 4/18/2022 at 4:55 PM, West said:

China's desire for superpower status is out in the open.

Yes.  They're not going to gain it with Lithium batteries.  

On 4/18/2022 at 4:55 PM, West said:

Russia was funding environmentalist propaganda to gain a greater market share. 

https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-environment/599113-russia-used-soft-power-to-influence-eu-policies-and-anti-fossil/amp/

I don't doubt this either.  Watching us penalize our own businesses outsource their dirty business and energy with no import restrictions etc has always been a fool's errand.  

On 4/18/2022 at 4:55 PM, West said:

They aren't conspiracy theories lol

No, but the idea that renewable energy or lithium batteries are a play for global hegemony is pretty dumb.  

[West]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Yes.  They're not going to gain it with Lithium batteries.  

I don't doubt this either.  Watching us penalize our own businesses outsource their dirty business and energy with no import restrictions etc has always been a fool's errand.  

No, but the idea that renewable energy or lithium batteries are a play for global hegemony is pretty dumb.  

You are right. It's much more than just lithium batteries. It's ridiculous carbon taxes making our industry non-competative, driving manufacturing out of the country to China, and then becoming reliant on them for essentials. And with China's lax environmental standards and coal power, doing absolutely zip to reduce global CO2 emissions, just shifting them and screwing over the working class.

Now if we shift away from fossil fuel as a main energy source, which is in abundance here, and rely on China, I fail to see how we are not empowering them

Edited April 20, 2022 by West

[cougar]

29 minutes ago, West said:

It's ridiculous carbon taxes making our industry non-competative, driving manufacturing out of the country to China

If the carbon tax was a reason for outsourcing manufacturing to China, then our whole economy must have ground to a halt now with the gas prices 70% higher than the year before.

No, manufacturing went to China long before the carbon tax was introduced.  

Not that it is a good tax doing anything for us.

[West]

6 minutes ago, cougar said:

If the carbon tax was a reason for outsourcing manufacturing to China, then our whole economy must have ground to a halt now with the gas prices 70% higher than the year before.

No, manufacturing went to China long before the carbon tax was introduced.  

Not that it is a good tax doing anything for us.

Our "whole economy" will never grind to a halt. We will become a service based economy as has been the trend whereas before we had some industry (can't exactly move the Canadian oil fields to China as an example..)

 However if you are going to destroy industry that provides reasonable wages, then our quality of life will grind to a halt and will be replaced by the Chinese. 

Edited April 20, 2022 by West

[ironstone]

On 4/18/2022 at 4:49 PM, Moonbox said:

Not everything is a conspiracy, though I know you really want it to be. 

There are lots of alternatives to lithium-ion batteries, both older and newer tech coming online.  The idea that China's going to take over the word with their lithium reserves is really, really silly.  

Right now China is a major player in the lithium mining industry and it's reasonable to assume they want to stay dominant.

Remember that environmentalists oppose an awful lot of things. They'll stand in the way over here while the Chinese will continue to steamroll everybody.

China Dominates the Global Lithium Battery Market - IER (instituteforenergyresearch.org)

The last paragraph in this link doesn't give me any reason for optimism either.

[Moonbox]

I'm saying it doesn't really matter.  Everyone knows China has the biggest Lithium reserves, just like they control most of the world's Rare earth supplies.  The point is that there are alternatives to Lithium batteries (some of them new and better technology which will replace them) and so China can't use this as clout or blackmail.  It's the same with rare earths, which aren't actually rare at all and are in abundant supply elsewhere.  China profits from their near-monopoly, but only because they can mine them cheaper than anyone else.  As soon as they start flexing and bullying around these things, they'll scare their markets into diversification like we've seen with Russia and oil/gas.  

[Moonbox]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:20 PM, West said:

You are right. It's much more than just lithium batteries. It's ridiculous carbon taxes making our industry non-competative, driving manufacturing out of the country to China, and then becoming reliant on them for essentials.

On this I agree with you.  A lot of our carbon taxes are little more than an outsourcing of pollution to places with lax environmental and human rights law.  The carbon taxes themselves aren't really the problem though.  It's rather the lack of tarrif/tax on the imports coming from even dirtier sources.  If we were all on a level playing field here, the carbon taxes would incentivize cleaner production.  It's just...we're not. 

[Nexii]

3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

On this I agree with you.  A lot of our carbon taxes are little more than an outsourcing of pollution to places with lax environmental and human rights law.  The carbon taxes themselves aren't really the problem though.  It's rather the lack of tarrif/tax on the imports coming from even dirtier sources.  If we were all on a level playing field here, the carbon taxes would incentivize cleaner production.  It's just...we're not. 

Yea our policies are nothing more than feel good measures which actually make pollution worse globally. And they also haven't reduced pollution domestically. 

Problem is it's hard to know how much pollution is made when importing foreign goods. China can fudge the numbers. 

There's probably not an easy and fair solution. Poorer countries also can't afford to use more expensive green technologies as much. 

Tech investments are probably our only long term hope on a macro scale. Discovering better ways to degrade plastic, to reduce global CO2, desalinate water, fusion power, etc. Maybe a global tax going into a such a research fund could work.

[Army Guy]

On 4/18/2022 at 5:49 PM, Moonbox said:

Not everything is a conspiracy, though I know you really want it to be. 

There are lots of alternatives to lithium-ion batteries, both older and newer tech coming online.  The idea that China's going to take over the word with their lithium reserves is really, really silly.  

I guess, halting all fossil fuel new developments, pipelines, infra structure, that makes sense when there is no real alternative to replace them yet... The greens want all fossil fuel to remain in the ground like last year or more ago, that makes sense, or what some climate changers are selling that the earth is going to burst into flames soon, that makes sense...Or the fact that it cost more green house gasses producing these green alternatives, like solar panels , wind turbines, ...many people on this forum have suggested better alternatives than wind/ solar electrical cars, but becasue it suggests nuclear power or versions of it we are scared and already fought that battle, but some how our government declared a climate emergency without much of a plan...

There is no emergency, if we judge our governments actions...it's all a conspiracy if we judge our governments action...

[West]

6 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I'm saying it doesn't really matter.  Everyone knows China has the biggest Lithium reserves, just like they control most of the world's Rare earth supplies.  The point is that there are alternatives to Lithium batteries (some of them new and better technology which will replace them) and so China can't use this as clout or blackmail.  It's the same with rare earths, which aren't actually rare at all and are in abundant supply elsewhere.  China profits from their near-monopoly, but only because they can mine them cheaper than anyone else.  As soon as they start flexing and bullying around these things, they'll scare their markets into diversification like we've seen with Russia and oil/gas.  

No but they can use their lithium supply to fund other things and leap ahead. Just like we should be doing with oil and gas.

[Moonbox]

Sure, but they do that with all of their exports, just like everyone else does.  Lithium isn't really noteworthy.  

[Nationalist]

Sketchy science brought to you by sketchy people. 

Green tech is fine for a "supplement". It is not gonna power our society in the foreseeable future. 

[West]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Sure, but they do that with all of their exports, just like everyone else does.  Lithium isn't really noteworthy.  

Well I'm sure many people would disagree with you on the importance of lithium. 

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3130990/chinas-dominance-rare-earths-supply-growing-concern-west?utm_source=google_amp&utm_medium=Off-Platform-referrals&utm_campaign=3167615_inline_link

• The Government of Canada has identified lithium as a critical mineral because it is a key material in the renewable energy transition, and Canada has the potential to be a supplier.

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/our-natural-resources/minerals-mining/minerals-metals-facts/lithium-facts/24009

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2022/01/15/how-the-us-fell-way-behind-in-lithium-white-gold-for-evs.html

Edited April 25, 2022 by West

[Moonbox]

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.  

Relating to your point about China and it's plans for global hegemony, Lithium isn't going to get it very far.  It's not a resource required in enormous amounts.  It's not particularly scarce.  It's replaceable with other battery tech alternatives.  The worldwide Lithium market is something less than $10B.  

This is not something we need to be peeing our beds over.  

[West]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.  

Relating to your point about China and it's plans for global hegemony, Lithium isn't going to get it very far.  It's not a resource required in enormous amounts.  It's not particularly scarce.  It's replaceable with other battery tech alternatives.  The worldwide Lithium market is something less than $10B.  

This is not something we need to be peeing our beds over.  

I think you are missing my point. Lithium is just one of many examples where China wins because of our own stupidity 

China 100% will be taking over as the global superpower within the next 20 or 30 years and much of that has to do with these environmentalist groups stalling any sort of investment and progress into the development of our natural resources. I wouldn't be surprised if countries like China are behind the funding of these groups utilizing our bunk legal system against us to tie up projects for years on end.

Edited April 25, 2022 by West

[Nationalist]

9 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.  

Relating to your point about China and it's plans for global hegemony, Lithium isn't going to get it very far.  It's not a resource required in enormous amounts.  It's not particularly scarce.  It's replaceable with other battery tech alternatives.  The worldwide Lithium market is something less than $10B.  

This is not something we need to be peeing our beds over.  

I read through this thread thinking...'Why is this person even arguing this point? Why would anyone in this society, try to belittle attempts made by China to control our economy?'

If we ignore all the things that are in your opinion, "not something we need to be peeing our beds over" and eventually the bed breaks, it'll be too late. What then?

"Well...how could I know THIS would happen?"

If every night you were robbed of $10, would you say, 'OK...its only 10 bucks.' Or would you have the police arrest the robber?

We're being bled to death and you run interference for those bleeding us. When you salute a flag...which flag is it?

 

[eyeball]

13 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Sketchy science brought to you by sketchy people. 

Green tech is fine for a "supplement". It is not gonna power our society in the foreseeable future. 

Oh well the future will just have to get by without power because black tech is not a sustainable option. 

[West]

3 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I read through this thread thinking...'Why is this person even arguing this point? Why would anyone in this society, try to belittle attempts made by China to control our economy?'

If we ignore all the things that are in your opinion, "not something we need to be peeing our beds over" and eventually the bed breaks, it'll be too late. What then?

"Well...how could I know THIS would happen?"

If every night you were robbed of $10, would you say, 'OK...its only 10 bucks.' Or would you have the police arrest the robber?

We're being bled to death and you run interference for those bleeding us. When you salute a flag...which flag is it?

 

I was in Africa just before covid. Pretty much every major infrastructure project was being facilitated by China. Fly a crew in, build a road, fly out. 

They do this all over. Part of the Belt Road experiment. Also likely funding groups to tie up projects in the West while they move full steam ahead. 

The Chinese model is an economic model. Have nations indepted to them, control major supply, get into educational institutions in the west to shape perceptions. A slow strangle hold until we wake up and now our banks are adopting the woke agenda which is basically just Chinese propaganda.

 

[Zeitgeist]

Energy is essential to human survival. Affordable energy is an affordable existence.  Imposing carbon taxes and shutting down fossil fuel production when there isn’t an affordable green energy replacement that can viably heat our homes, get us to work, transport goods, and power our industry and habitats, is suicide.  Don’t try to hide behind electric vehicles, which require electric power supply that also requires a viable energy source.  Don’t try to pretend that lithium batteries and the life cycle of EV’s aren’t environmentally problematic.  Real green energy alternatives will become available incrementally. After around 2050 the world population will start declining significantly, which will reduce emissions.  The climate measures we’re imposing now are putting unnecessary pressure on people and won’t change world emissions in a significant way, because energy production will just be offshored to low cost jurisdictions like our manufacturing. There’s no way to verify the human impact on climate change or if anything we do would substantially alter the climate.  We’re destroying living standards and affordability on a speculative, fear-driven basis.

Again, affordable, viable green energy should be built into our infrastructure through building codes and regulations. Fleecing humans isn’t the answer, which is why not even the Democrats will impose carbon taxes on Americans.  

Edited April 25, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Oh well the future will just have to get by without power because black tech is not a sustainable option. 

Oh well?

You need you head examined laddie.

[Nationalist]

55 minutes ago, West said:

I was in Africa just before covid. Pretty much every major infrastructure project was being facilitated by China. Fly a crew in, build a road, fly out. 

They do this all over. Part of the Belt Road experiment. Also likely funding groups to tie up projects in the West while they move full steam ahead. 

The Chinese model is an economic model. Have nations indepted to them, control major supply, get into educational institutions in the west to shape perceptions. A slow strangle hold until we wake up and now our banks are adopting the woke agenda which is basically just Chinese propaganda.

 

I may be on the extreme side of things but, China poisoned the entire world and is lying about it to this very day. Anthony Fauci PAID China to develop the type of virus that China let loose on the world and he's still got his job, instead of being behind bars where the little POS belongs.

China has bought most of the US and Canadian governments. What is needed is to give these governmental traitors their walkin' papers. ALL OF THEM!!! We've all been sold out by an elite class who deserve nothing less than a good punch in the nose...and a cage to rot to death in.

And of the long list of outright traitors to our nations, in the TOP 5 need to be these Gawd Damn Chinese shills who masquerade as "conservatives". I have no use for these dirt-bags what-so-ever.

[eyeball]

7 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Oh well?

That's right, it is what it is - unsustainable.

Quote

You need you head examined laddie.

My head is just fine thank you very much.

[eyeball]

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I may be on the extreme side of things but, China poisoned the entire world and is lying about it to this very day. Anthony Fauci PAID China to develop the type of virus that China let loose on the world and he's still got his job, instead of being behind bars where the little POS belongs.

At least you recognize you're being extreme but all the same you sure have some nerve posting this just after advising me I need to get my head examined.

 

[Nationalist]

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

That's right, it is what it is - unsustainable.

My head is just fine thank you very much.

Huh...you sure do pile the horse shit up high...don't ya.

If YOU want to live with unreliable power...YOU go right ahead. But do not impose your Tweenkie little fear-porn on others. The sky is NOT falling and nobody can prove that man is creating global warming.

Green tech ain't so green. It is incapable of powering our society.

[eyeball]

18 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Huh...you sure do pile the horse shit up high...don't ya.

In light of what you just posted??

Quote

 

If YOU want to live with unreliable power...YOU go right ahead. But do not impose your Tweenkie little fear-porn on others. The sky is NOT falling and nobody can prove that man is creating global warming.

Green tech ain't so green. It is incapable of powering our society.

 

Everything has an impact and it's reality that imposes that. Our society's impact is unsustainable and it will not be the sky that falls. 

I'd rather live with a dependable society.