Is Russiophobia one of Trudeau's "Acceptable Views"?

[Miloburke]

16 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

One more thing milo - once Ukraine signs with NATO Article 5 kicks in, and Russia would be powerless to do anything at that point. 

But Article 5 says, "an armed attack against one or more" NATO members "shall be considered an attack against them all." Please note, it does not say, "an armed attack by one or more" NATO members." The only thing NATO membership for Ukraine would mean is that Russia could not do what it is doing. Why do you think Sweden and Finland, two traditional neutrals are contemplating joining NATO?

An interesting thought, could an accidental missile strike on Polish soil trigger Article 5?

[Miloburke]

17 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

There are no "what ifs" at all. The US wouldn't let us enter into a pact with China that has an Article 5 in it. FULL STOP. We'd be invaded, 100%. 

If you can't understand this then it's pointless debating with you. 

Come on, what are the chances that we would sign such a pact with China. It reminds me of an old Andy Capp cartoon where panel one showed a guy laying on the sidewalk with stars circling his head, panel two showed Andy and a cop with the cop saying, "Let me get this straight, you thought he was going to hit you so you hit him back first."

If you are going to make an argument at least make the scenario plausible.

[Miloburke]

17 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Do you think Russia wants strategic nukes along their 2,000 km border with Ukraine? Is that an option?

Do you think the UE wants strategic nukes along their 2,000 km border with Russia? Besides strategic nukes don't have to be on the border, they can be launched from anywhere on the planet.

[WestCanMan]

5 hours ago, myata said:

"What they can" means bombing hospitals, killing civilians, children, razing cities, invading and occupying parts of a sovereign independent country in Europe. No need for general wording. No need to look the other way. By your moral standards this is allowed, the only take.

It all sounds really bad but the casualty reports don't match up with that. By Zelensky's own comments there are more dead Russian soldiers than Ukrainian civilians + soldiers. There are 100,000 Russian soldiers there, with air superiority, so they seem to be exercising an amazing amount of restraint.

The fact that Russians are "shooting on civilian targets" is also because Zelensky has ordered his civilians to shoot at Russians. 

It's impossible to have a war where Russians don't shoot at civilians and civilian buildings when civilians are shooting at them. Are Ukrainians shooting anti-aircraft/anti-tank missiles from hospitals and high-rises? Almost certainly, but we will never know. Are they shooting from homes and businesses? 100%. 

Zelensky and Biden asked for all of this. Every bit of it. Moving NATO into Ukraine would be a huge black cloud over the lives of every Russian for generations to come. F Ukraine, they can go to hell. 

This is coming from an Albertan: I have all kinds of Ukrainian friends and family. I don't personally even know 1 person who's Russian. I trained to kill Russians for 3 years when I was a young man (there was almost no talk of any enemy aside from the Soviet Union the whole time I was growing up or in the military). But every man in every country has the right to join the military to protect their homeland, and that includes Russia and Ukraine. Ukrainian soldiers can step up if they want to but Zelensky shouldn't have put them into that position.

 

PS - I've seen people in the know "allude to the fact" that Biden and the US oversaw the last Ukrainian and they did everything that they could to help Zelensky win the presidency, but I did a quick google search and just found a billion sites saying that Joe and Hunter are angels who just lie a lot. Does anyone know whether it's a real thing? 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Miloburke said:

But Article 5 says, "an armed attack against one or more" NATO members "shall be considered an attack against them all." Please note, it does not say, "an armed attack by one or more" NATO members." The only thing NATO membership for Ukraine would mean is that Russia could not do what it is doing.

Exactly. Once Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Russia is their bitch. 

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Miloburke said:

Come on, what are the chances that we would sign such a pact with China. It reminds me of an old Andy Capp cartoon where panel one showed a guy laying on the sidewalk with stars circling his head, panel two showed Andy and a cop with the cop saying, "Let me get this straight, you thought he was going to hit you so you hit him back first."

If you are going to make an argument at least make the scenario plausible.

There's no chance at all. That's not the point.

The point is that if we did what Ukraine is doing the US would take the name Canada off of the map and there would be almost no debate about it. Americans would be 100% in favour of it. 

[Moonbox]

26 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Exactly. Once Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Russia is their bitch. 

No, it means once Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Russia can no longer bully them.  That's it.  

[Moonbox]

28 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Exactly. Once Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Russia is their bitch. 

No.  Once Ukraine signs the dotted line, it is no longer Russia's bitch.  

26 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

The point is that if we did what Ukraine is doing the US would take the name Canada off of the map and there would be almost no debate about it. Americans would be 100% in favour of it. 

That you don't understand how stupid this analogy is worries me.  

If the United States was a total shithole where over half its population lived in crushing poverty, if it censored all of its news, if its government murdered and imprisoned its critics,  if it was not a democracy and if it was threatening to annex Canada's provinces and territories, maybe then you could suggest a comparison like this.  

[myata]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

The fact that Russians are "shooting on civilian targets is also because Zelensky has ordered his civilians to shoot at Russians. 

Your statements are weird, bizarre completely and hopelessly out of the sane world. Where are Russian troops and where are Russia's borders? It takes only a few seconds to check. If you got robbers in your place trying to hold your children hostage at knife/gunpoint would you be blaming police for trying to stop and arrest them? I'm not surprised anymore by what one can hear from our coinhabitors on this planet. Probably why we are failing to find any traces of advanced intelligent life out there.

[West]

[WestCanMan]

4 hours ago, Miloburke said:

Do you think the UE wants strategic nukes along their 2,000 km border with Russia? Besides strategic nukes don't have to be on the border, they can be launched from anywhere on the planet.

OMG man, is that the limit of your thinking? Everything is the same?

Do you think that "It would make no difference to the US if China, Iran, Russia and NoKo had their armies massed on the US border with Canada" because their missiles can reach the US anyways? 

Do you think that hypersonic missiles loaded with nuclear warheads all over Ukraine would massively escalate the threat to Russia, or would Puting just say "It's no big deal. There are missile silos in Idaho anyways."

[WestCanMan]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No, it means once Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Russia can no longer bully them.  That's it.  

No, it means that Zelenski can invite as many NATO bullies to his yard as he wants and run his mouth, like he is now.

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

That you don't understand how stupid this analogy is worries me.  

The fact that you're not smart enough to understand this analogy doesn't shock me at all, it's par for the course.

No country wants to allow their enemies to mass on their border, period. Full stop. Everyone on earth with an IQ over 50 understands that point implicitly. The fact that you don't understand it is telling.

The US didn't allow Russia to have ICBMs in Cuba. Russia doesn't want to allow hypersonic missile and cruise missiles loaded with nukes in Ukraine. This is their Cuban missile crisis.

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If the United States was a total shithole where over half its population lived in crushing poverty,

You have no idea how millions of people in Baltimore, Chicago, St Louis etc live. There aren't many people in Russia that are worse off than that.

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if it censored all of its news,

CNN and MSNBC are no better than Pravda and TASS. 

One minute the Ukrainians are winning but at the same time it's somehow a genocide, then they give out body counts that say 10,000 Russian troops are dead and only 514 Ukrainians, there are no US biolabs in Ukraine "but there are some labs where the US is 'studying' bioweapons that terrorists would love to get their hands on".....

The MSM in the US is a bunch of Nazi level propagandists. 

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if its government murdered and imprisoned its critics,

freedom of speech is under attack year by year, cancel cultists are after Rogan and Carlson 24/7, and people who did nothing at the capitol were imprisoned for months without a trial. Pelosi had every opportunity to prevent that from happening, Trump authorized the deployment of the National Guard in advance, Pelosi just let the shitshow happen then threw everyone in jail and used 20,000 National Guardsmen as a prop. 

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if it was not a democracy and if it was threatening to annex Canada's provinces and territories, maybe then you could suggest a comparison like this.  

The comparison has nothing to do with what kind of music people listen to or how colourful their clothing is or whether or not we have similar views on abortion, religion and gay rights. It's simply about whether or not the US would allow Canada to bring America's enemies right to their border. 

We could be almost identical in every way, it doesn't matter. If we make a serious threat to bring their enemies here they will throttle us, end of story. 

Pelosi, Trump, McAuley Caulkin, and everyone else in the US will say "kick Cnada's ass!"

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Your statements are weird, bizarre completely and hopelessly out of the sane world. Where are Russian troops and where are Russia's borders? It takes only a few seconds to check. If you got robbers in your place trying to hold your children hostage at knife/gunpoint would you be blaming police for trying to stop and arrest them? I'm not surprised anymore by what one can hear from our coinhabitors on this planet. Probably why we are failing to find any traces of advanced intelligent life out there.

Russia is there because Zelenski threatened them with NATO. FACT.

Zelenski told his civilians to shoot at Russians. FACT.

Everyone on earth shoots back at people who shoot at them, and it's not illegal. FACT.

Those are all undeniable facts.

You can't ignore the most basic facts of the matter just to create a convenient narrative. 

[Moonbox]

Just now, WestCanMan said:

Russia is there because Zelenski threatened them with NATO. FACT.

Not a fact at all.  Zelensky and Ukraine wanted to join NATO.  That's it, and it's a very different thing.  

Just now, WestCanMan said:

Zelenski told his civilians to shoot at Russians. FACT.

When the Russian army invaded.  What exactly is remarkable about this?  

Just now, WestCanMan said:

Everyone on earth shoots back at people who shoot at them, and it's not illegal. FACT.

Yes, exactly.  When a foreign army invades your soil, you shoot at them.  I'm not sure why you think capitalizing the word FACT after saying something stupid adds to your argument.  

 

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No.  Once Ukraine signs the dotted line, it is no longer Russia's bitch.  

That you don't understand how stupid this analogy is worries me.  

If the United States was a total shithole where over half its population lived in crushing poverty, if it censored all of its news, if its government murdered and imprisoned its critics,  if it was not a democracy and if it was threatening to annex Canada's provinces and territories, maybe then you could suggest a comparison like this.  

Hmmm...

Is Russia a dictatorship? I think the answer would be "yes, of sorts". I think Russia, under Putin, has become a corporate dictatorship with Putin at the top of or near the top of all the major corporations. However we know that under Putin, the Russian economy has flourished and in all actuality...its population does not live in crushing poverty.

There's also something I haven't read anyone discuss yet...so of course...I will.

When the Soviet Union fell, the IMF and World Bank rushed into the broken states and offered to bail them out of their economic woes with huge loans. Part of the overall deal was that the nation's infrastructures needed upgrading and proper management. Thus...in came the Germans and the French and the Brits and the Americans...and the Canadians...to the rescue. Then came the EU and more Germans and French and Brits and Americans...and Canadians. Before they knew what had happened, they'd sold off all of their infrastructure. But Russia told the IMF and the World Bank to go suck rocks. Putin said he'd rather make Russian oligarchs, than to make the Western oligarchs even richer...or something like that.

Now...a lot of what happened was a pre-condition to NATO acceptance.

I believe that Ukraine is into the IMF for quite the wad of cash as well.

Just a few more rocks to suck on...

Edited March 15, 2022 by Nationalist

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Not a fact at all.  Zelensky and Ukraine wanted to join NATO.  That's it, and it's a very different thing.  

Cuba wanted to host some Russian nuclear missile silos. 

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When the Russian army invaded.  What exactly is remarkable about this?  

1) It's pretty weak to invite a war if your strategy is going to be to get civilians to shoot at Russian soldiers from your house.

2) If that's your strategy, fine, just do so knowing that non-uniformed people who shoot at soldiers in a war zone are illegal combatants and don't get any protections from the Geneva conventions, and buildings that are fired from can be fired upon. 

IE, don't complain when houses, hospitals and high-rise buildings get bombed. Those aren't civilians getting fired upon, they're illegal combatants. 

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Yes, exactly.  When a foreign army invades your soil, you shoot at them.  I'm not sure why you think capitalizing the word FACT after saying something stupid adds to your argument.  

If you're not one of the people who's pissing and moaning about buildings and hospitals being destroyed, that's fine. 

The post that you're referring to was Myata's post saying:

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"What they can" means bombing hospitals, killing civilians, children, razing cities, invading and occupying parts of a sovereign independent country in Europe. No need for general wording. No need to look the other way. By your moral standards this is allowed, the only take.

All of the things in Myata's quote are perfectly normal in war. 

If I'm in a NATO hospital and I shoot a rocket at a tank, it's lawful for them to fire back into the hospital to kill me. It's perfectly normal in a war zone. I'd actually be the war criminal in that scenario. If the tank didn't kill me, I'd go to jail, just like the Nazis did (if there were any that weren't executed). 

Zelenski made his civilians into illegal combatants = Zelenski unleashed the Russian military on his citizens.

[Army Guy]

On 3/11/2022 at 2:13 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Don't compare actions taken 100 years ago with actions taken less than 100 seconds ago. That was the culture then. In 21st century it is very evil to kill innocent defenseless women and children.

What has changed from then to now, Did the Chinese Canadians or i should say all Asian Canadians people just not go through that phase, becasue of what China was doing in the world, getting beaten up , harassed,  or is it ok to be racist when ever it we want , they are after all the enemy right...Lets not pretend that things have changed and we are now all of sudden racist free... we are far from it, and will never be free from racism.... Now Putin and his crew can fuck right off, we should contain our contempt to them and not every Russian , there is after all over 600 k Russian Canadians  living here in Canada....

[Faramir]

20 hours ago, suds said:

Yeah, it was a clear case of collusion between the Ukraine and the Democrats.  But i can't really blame the Ukraine government as they needed all the help they could get and figured the Democrats were going to win.

Hmmm..OK...you are able to accept it.  I think if Zelensky stepped down it would go a long way assuring those of us against globalism.

[Moonbox]

17 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Now Putin and his crew can fuck right off, we should contain our contempt to them and not every Russian , there is after all over 600 k Russian Canadians  living here in Canada....

Russian Canadians.  My biggest client is a 47 year old woman born and raised in Russia (she fled).  I think she's the bee's knees and most people who meet her agree.  She's not feeling any hate anywhere.  

As for "contempt" for actual Russians, it's not even that.  It's contempt for and rejection of Putin's Russia.  People around the world are cheering for and worried about Marina Ovsyannikova, who held up a sign protesting the war in Ukraine during a live broadcast of Russia's state-run news.  She's now disappeared and nobody knows where she is.  

If shunning Russians for invading Ukraine is racist or discriminatory, what do you call invading a sovereign nation and killing its people? Outside of actively engaging in the conflict, the only way the west can help Ukraine is isolating its aggressors as they have been. 

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Moonbox

[Faramir]

16 hours ago, blackbird said:

I don't believe or follow that kind of stuff, that sounds questionable.

Zelensky was praising facebook yesterday.

[Faramir]

I have a cautious regard for what the Ukraine is going through.  I don't like Zelensky and his globalist backers.  Too bad the Ukraine didn't have a most honest broker.  But hitting maternity centres is above the pale.  Akin to the first world war.  The British were wrong to think they could put Germany down a notch.  But in the end, it was the atrocities that the Germans visited on the French and Belgian towns that turned them into the enemy.  Still, then it did not justify US intervention as Wilson was also a globalist sell out, breaking his very election promise to not get involved.  Canada of course was still Britain's bitch so we didn't even flinch.  America can support the Ukraine from the sidelines but should not get involved.  Maybe NOW people will finally take the China threat seriously enough to also sanction them and toss trade agreements with them.  Less China in both our economies will do a lot to bring back manufacturing.

[Miloburke]

5 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Exactly. Once Ukraine signs on the dotted line, Russia is their bitch. 

In what way? What could Ukraine do to Russia as a member of the EU or NATO that they cannot do now?

[Miloburke]

22 minutes ago, Faramir said:

I have a cautious regard for what the Ukraine is going through.  I don't like Zelensky and his globalist backers.  Too bad the Ukraine didn't have a most honest broker.  But hitting maternity centres is above the pale.  Akin to the first world war.  The British were wrong to think they could put Germany down a notch.  But in the end, it was the atrocities that the Germans visited on the French and Belgian towns that turned them into the enemy.  Still, then it did not justify US intervention as Wilson was also a globalist sell out, breaking his very election promise to not get involved.  Canada of course was still Britain's bitch so we didn't even flinch.  America can support the Ukraine from the sidelines but should not get involved.  Maybe NOW people will finally take the China threat seriously enough to also sanction them and toss trade agreements with them.  Less China in both our economies will do a lot to bring back manufacturing.

Hi Faramir,

 

>  The British were wrong to think they could put Germany down a notch. 

I am not sure what yo mean. Could you expand on it.

[Army Guy]

7 hours ago, Miloburke said:

But Article 5 says, "an armed attack against one or more" NATO members "shall be considered an attack against them all." Please note, it does not say, "an armed attack by one or more" NATO members." The only thing NATO membership for Ukraine would mean is that Russia could not do what it is doing. Why do you think Sweden and Finland, two traditional neutrals are contemplating joining NATO?

An interesting thought, could an accidental missile strike on Polish soil trigger Article 5?

NATO is a military pact period, that is both offensive and defensive... and can be used any where in the world, think Afghanistan was part of NATO, Kosovo , Former Yugoslavia, nations that NATO has had used military force on when there was no attack on any NATO nation... 

Sweden and Finland have expressed joining NATO, and Russia has already expressed it's dislike over this fact...And i'm sure it is not going to happen, you can only poke the bear so many times...before it gets up and rips your head off... why would any nation risk the damage that is happening to Ukraine ? 

Pakistan has just done the same thing, it was conventional, and proven to be an accident, had it been nuclear, or chemical there might have been a different response, todays nukes' are some what large and would spread a radioactive cloud over several continents...not to mention the smoking hole that would be unless ground for centuries..