War In Ukraine

[Dougie93]

by the laws of armed conflict

your military is bound to three main principles

all your actions are a military neccesity

all your actions are conducted to mitigate collateral damage

all you actions are proportionate to the threat

so even if Polk Azov is a legitimate military target

destroying the entire city of Mariupol to engage that target, is still a war crime on a massive scale

[Dougie93]

another important principle to note

is that if you are the aggressor, which is a war crime unto itself

and you wage a war of total annihilation against the civilian population of the country you are invading

that defending population is permitted by the law to resist by any means necessary

you have to follow the law to claim the protection of the law

Russia cannot invoke the war crimes statutes against the Ukrainian defenders, when Russia is the flagrant lawbreaker

[Dougie93]

where Russia does have a case is the de facto & de jure embargo of the Russian economy

and NATO heavily arming the Ukrainians

these are acts of war under the Hague Convention

the Article V line is being crossed, but not by Russia, NATO is crossing the Article V line

NATO is already waging war against Russia by the laws of armed conflict

so Russia is within their rights to retaliate against NATO targets at any time

[Dougie93]

12 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Ukraine is America's dirty little secret.

even if true, then America has baited the Russians into a strategic catastrophe

the damage being done to Russia at the strategic level is not worth the stretch of this all out invasion

[WestCanMan]

48 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

"Nazi" has simply come to mean "anybody who opposes us" 

 In the case of people like Trudeau they look like a duck, waddle like a duck, quack like a duck and swim like duck, so they must be a duck. 

This is more like the case of people who say that they are ducks and they get duck tattoos and put duck logos on their uniforms. In this case it's Nazis who get swastika tattoos and use Nazi uniform patches as their unit insignias.

If someone says that they're Nazis we should believe them.  

[WestCanMan]

From Wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

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Neo-Nazism In the Azov Brigade

 

Emblem featuring a Wolfsangel and Black Sun, two symbols associated with Nazism

The Azov Battalion has been described as a far-right militia,^[39][13] with connections to neo-Nazism and members wearing neo-Nazi and SS symbols and regalia, and expressing neo-Nazi views.^[38][17] The group's insignia features the Wolfsangel,^[96][97] a German heraldic charge inspired by historic wolf traps adopted by the Nazi Party, and the Black Sun,^[16][98][99] both of which remain two popular neo-Nazi symbols.^[15][16][17] Azov soldiers have been observed wearing Nazi-associated symbols on their uniforms.^[100] In 2014, the German ZDF television network showed images of Azov fighters wearing helmets with swastika symbols and "the SS runes of Hitler's infamous black-uniformed elite corps".^[101] In 2015, Marcin Ogdowski, a Polish war correspondent, gained access to one of Azov's bases located in the former holiday resort Majak; Azov fighters showed to him Nazi tattoos as well as Nazi emblems on their uniforms.^[102][13]

Azov's founding member Andriy Biletsky, leader of the neo-Nazi Social-National Assembly (SNA) made statements^[when?] about a "historic mission" to lead the "white races of the world in a final crusade for their survival ... a crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen", an ideology traced by political scientist Richard Sakwa to the National Integralism of 1920s and 1930s.^[103] Political scientist Ivan Katchanovski has commented on the founder's origins as Patriot of Ukraine, saying: "The SNA/PU [Patriot of Ukraine] advocates a neo-Nazi ideology along with ultranationalism and racism. The same applies to ... members of the Azov battalion and many football ultras and others who serve in this formation."^[104]

Shaun Walker wrote in The Guardian that "many of [Azov's] members have links with neo-Nazi groups, and even those who laughed off the idea that they are neo-Nazis did not give the most convincing denials", citing swastika tattoos among the fighters and one who claimed to be a "national socialist".^[17]According to The Daily Beast, some of the group's members are "neo-Nazis, white supremacists, and avowed anti-Semites",^[69] and "numerous swastika tattoos of different members and their tendency to go into battle with swastikas or SS insignias drawn on their helmets make it very difficult for other members of the group to plausibly deny any neo-Nazi affiliations."^[105] Bellingcat, an investigative journalist group, has traced ties between the Azov movement and American white supremacist groups.^[13]

 

 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

 In the case of people like Trudeau they look like a duck, waddle like a duck, quack like a duck and swim like duck, so they must be a duck. 

This is more like the case of people who say that they are ducks and they get duck tattoos and put duck logos on their uniforms. In this case it's Nazis who get swastika tattoos and use Nazi uniform patches as their unit insignias.

If someone says that they're Nazis we should believe them.  

I would definitely acknowledge that Polk Azov is a de facto Neo Nazi organization

the assertion that the entire country of Ukraine is a Neo Nazi state does not follow however

that is a specific to general fallacy

Ukraine has a large Overton Window, which includes far right Nationalists & far left Communists

Ukraine is a complex state of 44 million people, of which only a tiny cohort are Neo Nazis

 

[WestCanMan]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

even if true, then America has baited the Russians into a strategic catastrophe

How could we possibly know that? All we get here is American propaganda. 

America is suffering an economic catastrophe of their own right now both in terms of record inflation, and the Saudis might be ditching the petro dollar, which is a very long-term blow to the American dollar. 

These sanctions against Russia can't last, Russia can make all the food they need with Ukrainian land, they gain a ton of natural resources, and China will trade with them anyways. 

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the damage being done to Russia at the strategic level is not worth the stretch of this all out invasion

I think that America is the one that's gonna suffer long-term.

If Russia takes Ukraine it's a long-term win for them.

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

How could we possibly know that?

because ultimately Putin's stated strategic goal was to bring Ukraine back into the fold

Putin invokes the Soviet concept of "Sphere of Influence"

the desired Russian end state was to bring Ukraine back into that paradigm

this brutal all out invasion however, has achieved the exact opposite result

the Ukrainians are being unified into an heroic Ukrainian nationalist identity by this war

 that is creating a Ukrainian nation which will never rejoin Russia's Sphere of Influence now

simultaneously, the Russian economy is being catastrophically damaged by embargo

and at the operational level, the Ukrainians are winning the war

Russia has suffered more casualties in three weeks than the Soviets suffered in their decade long Afghan war

the Russians military has been exposed as being far less formidable than predicted

the Russians are bogged down in a stalemate with no exit strategy getting mauled in a hornet's nest

[WestCanMan]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

I would definitely acknowledge that Polk Azov is a de facto Neo Nazi organization

the assertion that the entire country of Ukraine is a Neo Nazi state does not follow however

Not even everyone in Germany was a Nazi, but the assertion that Russia is fighting against Nazis is true enough. 

https://www.firstpost.com/world/russian-military-operation-puts-the-spotlight-on-ukraines-neo-nazis-what-you-need-to-know-about-them-10419921.html

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This makes the Ukraine military the only one in the world to incorporate a far-right militia. It is important to note that the regiment’s insignia is reminiscent of the Nazi Wolfsangel, though the battalion claims it is in fact meant to be the letters N and I crossed over each other, standing for "national idea".

The Azov brigade war crimes:

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The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights accused members of the battalion of war crimes in the early stages of the conflict in Ukraine.

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_14th_HRMMU_Report.pdf

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1. Missing persons and the recovery and identification of mortal remains......... 26–28

2. Summary executions, enforced disappearances, unlawful and arbitrary
   detention, and torture and ill-treatment........................................................... 29–44

3. Sexual and gender-based violence .................................................................. 

The Russians aren't making shit up about the Azov Battallion. They're shit. They're a big part of the reason why Crimea voted in favour of separation. 

[Dougie93]

Just now, WestCanMan said:

Not even everyone in Germany was a Nazi, but the assertion that Russia is fighting against Nazis is true enough. 

https://www.firstpost.com/world/russian-military-operation-puts-the-spotlight-on-ukraines-neo-nazis-what-you-need-to-know-about-them-10419921.html

The Azov brigade war crimes:

https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/Documents/Countries/UA/Ukraine_14th_HRMMU_Report.pdf

The Russians aren't making shit up about the Azov Battallion. They're shit. They're a big part of the reason why Crimea voted in favour of separation. 

none of this is relevant to the war in progress which Russia is losing badly

it is utter folly for Russia to impale itself on this failed war of aggression under the Rubric of "Azov bad"

the Russians are in fact making Polk Azov into a legend now

Polk Azov has been holding out against the Russians in Mariupol like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Not even everyone in Germany was a Nazi, but the assertion that Russia is fighting against Nazis is true enough.

being a Nazi is not a crime unto itself

it's constitutionally protected speech by the 1st Amendment in America

see; Brandenburg v. Ohio

[WestCanMan]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the Ukrainians are being unified into an heroic Ukrainian nationalist identity by this war

 that is creating a Ukrainian nation which will never rejoin Russia's Sphere of Influence now

simultaneously, the Russian economy is being catastrophically damaged by embargo

and at the operational level, the Ukrainians are winning the war

Russia has suffered more casualties in three weeks than the Soviets suffered in their decade long Afghan war

the Russians military has been exposed as being far less formidable than predicted

the Russians are bogged down in a stalemate with no exit strategy getting mauled in a hornet's nest

I actually doubt all of this stuff 100%.

The Russians have been very careful to minimize civilian casualties during this war. They have a ton of troops there, they're just not doing a lot of shooting. It's almost like a scene from "The A Team".

We get all kinds of bullshit here about "Russians firing on fleeing civilians", but it's not true: the casualty reports show that is a total fabrication.

If we learned anything over the past 10 years it's that we can't believe anything we hear from western media. They've gone from being colourful around the edges to rotten to the core. Take the anti-Trump BS from the last 6 years and multiply it by 100 - that's the level of disinformation that we're getting about the war in Ukraine. 

Ivan and Igor could be smoking cigars with their feet on Zelenski's desk, we'd just hear about a little girl who had something bad happen to her. 

And FYI, Russia can afford to lose tanks. They have more than twice as many tanks as any other country. Americans decommission old shit, Russia still has WWII tanks that they don't care about. 

Do you know if they're losing T-14s? I know they care about those. They have over 500 T-90s. I'm sure that they expected to lose some of those in this war.

 

[Dougie93]

Just now, WestCanMan said:

I actually doubt all of this stuff 100%.

The Russians have been very careful to minimize civilian casualties during this war. They have a ton of troops there, they're just not doing a lot of shooting. It's almost like a scene from "The A Team".

We get all kinds of bullshit here about "Russians firing on fleeing civilians", but it's not true: the casualty reports show that is a total fabrication.

If we learned anything over the past 10 years it's that we can't believe anything we hear from western media. They've gone from being colourful around the edges to rotten to the core. Take the anti-Trump BS from the last 6 years and multiply it by 100 - that's the level of disinformation that we're getting about the war in Ukraine. 

Ivan and Igor could be smoking cigars with their feet on Zelenski's desk, we'd just hear about a little girl who had something bad happen to her. 

And FYI, Russia can afford to lose tanks. They have more than twice as many tanks as any other country. Americans decommission old shit, Russia still has WWII tanks that they don't care about. 

Do you know if they're losing T-14s? I know they care about those. They have over 500 T-90s. I'm sure that they expected to lose some of those in this war.

you're welcome to your view of it, I don't think there's any point in arguing with you about it

 

[blackbird]

I see the Russian Communist Party led by Putin as evil war criminals.  Regardless of whether Ukraine wants to join Europe and the west, or join NATO, the Communists had no right to use military force to destroy the Ukraine, kill many children, civilians, and others and bomb the country into oblivion.  They are a bunch of war criminals.  Ukraine considers itself an independent state since the former USSR fell apart.  If Putin and his gang were unhappy with that, that is too bad but it is the right of people like the Ukraine to determine their own system and government.  I don't believe Putin's claim that there was genocide against the people of Russian descent living in the Ukraine.  That was just more propaganda from Putin.  Practically everything he says is a lie.  He is one of the last Tsars of imperial Russia who think they can expand and return to their former greatness by force and murder of neighbouring people.  

[Dougie93]

I would say that Putin is Soviet without being Communist

in that he desires to rebuild the Soviet Sphere of Influence empire in the Russian Near Abroad

but he does not intend to impose an utopian Marxist-Leninist regime there

[WestCanMan]

9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

none of this is relevant to the war in progress which Russia is losing badly

it is utter folly for Russia to impale itself on this failed war of aggression under the Rubric of "Azov bad"

the Russians are in fact making Polk Azov into a legend now

Polk Azov has been holding out against the Russians in Mariupol like the 300 Spartans at Thermopylae

1) Mariupol is falling, even Americans admit to that

2) the comparison to Leonidas and the Spartans is an embarrassment.

Leo was a God of War who marched to certain death where he stood shoulder to shoulder with his freedom fighters until the last one fell. 

Zelenski is an actor and a coward who's busy hiding somewhere while his Nazi war criminals fight for him.

[Dougie93]

5 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

1) Mariupol is falling, even Americans admit to that

2) the comparison to Leonidas and the Spartans is an embarrassment.

Leo was a God of War who marched to certain death where he stood shoulder to shoulder with his freedom fighters until the last one fell. 

Zelenski is an actor and a coward who's busy hiding somewhere while his Nazi war criminals fight for him.

again, you are welcome to your view of it, but I see no point in arguing with you about it

you are clearly so deeply entrenched in your position, that it would be a fool's errand to try to convince you otherwise

Edited March 19, 2022 by Dougie93

[WestCanMan]

34 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I see the Russian Communist Party led by Putin as evil war criminals.  

The Azovs are the actual war criminals in Ukraine, according to The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights.

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Regardless of whether Ukraine wants to join Europe and the west, or join NATO, the Communists had no right to use military force

You're absolutely wrong - you just described the exact main reason why a very large percentage of wars have started. They're also using military force to eliminate the threat from the biological warfare agents present in so many Ukraine biolabs, which are jointly funded by the US.

This war wouldn't have happened if Zelenski guaranteed that Ukraine wouldn't join NATO. Z even acknowledged it himself. So there's also that. This is as much a war of Zelenski's choosing as Putin's. 

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to destroy the Ukraine, kill many children, civilians, and others and bomb the country into oblivion.  They are a bunch of war criminals. 

That's a lie, what you're describing isn't happening. 

It was Zelenski who turned his civilian population into non-uniformed fighters, and made his civilian buildings into legitimate targets.

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Ukraine considers itself an independent state since the former USSR fell apart.  If Putin and his gang were unhappy with that, that is too bad but it is the right of people like the Ukraine to determine their own system and government. 

Cuba was a independent state and Kennedy declared that the US would be at war with Russia if Cuba didn't relent in their military support of Russia. No Americans or Canadians are calling Kennedy a war criminal or a dictator.

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I don't believe Putin's claim that there was genocide against the people of Russian descent living in the Ukraine. 

The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights thinks differently, and so do the people of Crimea, whose vote to separate was in large part due to Ukraine's war crimes. But I'm sue that you know more than they do, CCCG would have informed you if anything in Ukraine was even slightly amiss...... (that last part is dripping with sarcasm... like Niagara falls)

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That was just more propaganda from Putin.  Practically everything he says is a lie. 

1) It was a 100% legitimate point that he made,

2) but it's questionable whether it was enough to start a war on this scale

3) lying is an important part of war, but he's actually in a war which is fairly legitimate by any measure. You should be more worried about the propaganda coming from the Americans who want to get more and more involved in the war.

They don't care about dead kids at all. Over 5M people died in Congo and you didn't hear a word about any of those non-blondes, many of them were kids. Ukrainian war dead kids are props for American propaganda. They want to make you mad to steel your resolve, and they're steeling your resolve because that gives them license to get more and more warlike.

The story of the "hapless Russian soldier who keep stepping on rakes" is like the story of "the bespectacled Japanese fighter pilots who'd surely drop from the sky like flies if they faced the mighty US war machine."

This is neither here nor there, but FYI the Americans got lucky to win at midway. 

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He is one of the last Tsars of imperial Russia who think they can expand and return to their former greatness by force and murder of neighbouring people.  

That part is just folly, no need to dignify that comment with a thoughtful reply. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by WestCanMan

[WestCanMan]

11 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

again, you are welcome to your view of it, but I see no point in arguing with you about it

you are clearly so deeply entrenched in your position, that it would be a fool's errand to try to convince you otherwise

I'll admit to being immersed in the facts of the matter, and somewhat distanced from the blinding glory of American propaganda.

I'm not in the military anymore and I'm no longer required to blindly go with the flock.

But regardless of whose propaganda you believe, the comparison between the Azovs and the 300 served to dramatically cheapen the worth, honour, valour, character, dignity and sacrifice of the 300. It's like comparing Clifford Olsen to Francis Pegahmagabow. 

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

is that if you are the aggressor, which is a war crime unto itself

Ukraine and Russia are mutual combatants. 

Ukraine is holding biological warfare agents that are a direct threat to Russia, and Ukraine is threatening to bring in NATO, which is a dire threat to Russia. This is as much their war as Russia's. Zelenski was selected by Americans to be their puppet and this is America's endgame. The demise of the petro dollar was surely something that the Americans didn't foresee when they started this mess.

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a war of total annihilation against the civilian population of the country you are invading

False.

Ukrainian civilian casualty reports are extremely low considering the large scope of this war, the number of combatants in the area, and how many civilians are present in the areas where they fighting is occurring.

[Dougie93]

36 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

I'll admit to being immersed in the facts of the matter, and somewhat distanced from the blinding glory of American propaganda.

I'm not in the military anymore and I'm no longer required to blindly go with the flock.

I'm a free speech absolutist, I'll defend your right to have your own view of it

I simply present my analysis for the perusal of the forum,

but I have no interest to prove my opinion, as again, that would be a fool's errand

[eyeball]

14 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Members of the WE ARE THE SHEEPLE movement will ignore this, but it's 100% true. 

It's just opinions on a talk show. If it was true every media source on the planet would be investigating it but since they're not, it should be obvious why.

The term occult in the headline kind of underscores the story's incredibility and likelihood anything contained within the story will be worth reading or following.

[Dougie93]

bear in mind that I am not in any way Anti-Russian

I am a Russophile, I love Russia, I love the Russian people, I love Russian culture

but in actual fact, Ukraine is 20% ethnic Russians

so at a city like Kharkiv for example, that's a Russian city in Ukraine

so the Russian army is massacring Russians there, that's Russian v. Russian

I don't even have an ideological quarrel with the Kremlin, as they are not Communists anymore

this is simply a diabolical aggressive total war of annihilation against a civilian population

that shall not stand, Russia will pay a dear price for the evil that the Kremlin is doing here

just my opinion tho, obviously within the fog of war in contested battle, there is no way to prove it

[WestCanMan]

53 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's just opinions on a talk show.

It's facts from Victoria Nuland, The Deputy Secretary of State for Ukraine, while under oath in the Senate. (Bioweapons)

It's facts from the US gov'ts own websites. (Bioweapons)

It's quotes from the US gov't and their MSM lackeys denying that bioweapons labs exist in Ukraine.

It's facts from the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights. (Ukranian/Azov Battalion war crimes)

It's facts from wikipedia and other cites referenced here (Azov Naziism, Nazi insignias on their uniforms, Ukraine having the world's only ultra-socialist/Nazi battalion)

It's quotes from Zelenski himself about NATO being too much for Russia to bear.

It's a quote from Biden himself that he installed the Prosecutor General in Ukraine, someone who's "a solid guy". FYI the CEO of Burisma - the guy who hired Hunter - came back to Ukraine while this 'solid guy' was still the prosecutor. Hmmmm.

It's a leaked phone call from Victoria Nuland (her again) again showing how involved the Americans were in getting Klitschko to bow out of the Presidential election (making way for Zelenski to win, but Zelenski's name isn't mentioned). IE interference from the US gov't in the Presidential Election in Ukraine, meaning that by US standards Zelenski isn't a legitimate president.

None of these things are "from a talk show", they're all very real things that actually happened on this planet, they're completely understood by any parties that bothered to pay attention, and the bearer of this actual information shouldn't be your main concern. Now they've been brought to your attention, and you know these things to be true.

If anything, you should be concerned about the people who chose to keep you ignorant, CCCG, but you're not, because again you've chosen to make this into another one of your "WE THE SHEEPLE" moments.

I get it. You're beating a dead horse now. Your head is 100% in the sand and that will never change. Why do you keep popping up to say that?

For shits and giggles, ask yourself this: if someone told you that the massacre at Glencoe never happened, and then CNN and Global said that it never actually happened, would you care about the truth then? It wouldn't even be important anymore.... it's just a historical footnote at this point because all of those people would be dead by now anyways and there were less than 50 of them. By contrast over 5M people died in Congo and you never cared about any of them. A lot of them would still be alive right now but hey, whatevs.

What truths matter to you eyeball and which ones don't? That's a weird question to have to ask anyone but in your case it's quite apropos. 

At what point do you replace "WE THE SHEEPLE" with "The truth actually matters" eyeball? If lies in jackboots come to your door one day you'll understand, but when it's just other people who are being harmed you don't give AF. You're all-in with the lies. "WE THE SHEEPLE! WE THE SHEEPLE! WE THE SHEEPLE!" In German that's pronounced "ZEIG HEIL!"

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If it was true every media source on the planet would be investigating it but since they're not, it should be obvious why.

It IS obvious why. I've proven it to you 100 times, but you plug your ears and say "WE THE SHEEPLE" over and over again.

You could caught up in molasses pouring down a slight Alaskan incline in January. 

Edited March 19, 2022 by WestCanMan