Democratic renewal

[Zeitgeist]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. It's been around for awhile now and it's being unwound righth ?

2. No - not all citizens and not all freedoms.  Your freedoms are curtailed regularly otherwise the country could not function.

3. Even worse.  They arrested people without proper legislative authority.  Why do you think that wasn't worse than this ?

This is when I get really upset with you.  The current situation is a major crisis for the unvaccinated, the right to protest, and the right to our Charter rights for all citizens.  You still seem completely asleep to the implications of the dystopian social credit system that our government appears to want to keep and has attached to a particular ideology — theirs!   Overnight it seems Canada became China.  Putin seems to know this.  It seems our government has signed onto a plan from the unelected World Economic Forum.  The fact that none of this has been discussed in Parliament and Trudeau refuses to even discuss if and when vaccine mandates will be removed is horrifying.  All backstopped by the Emergencies Act.  It feels and looks like totalitarianism.  Why?   To control how people think and live?   To fight climate change?  To protect our health?   Extreme undemocratic government overreach in Canada.   

[Michael Hardner]

23 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

1. This is when I get really upset with you.  

2. The current situation is a major crisis for the unvaccinated, the right to protest, and the right to our Charter rights for all citizens.  

3. You still seem completely asleep to the implications of the dystopian social credit system that our government appears to want to keep and has attached to a particular ideology — theirs!  

4. Overnight it seems Canada became China.  

5.  It feels and looks like totalitarianism.  Why?    

1. Please don't - I am listening here.
2. Ok but that's not just a concern for unvaccinated - it's a concern for ALL.  The unvaccinated are concerned with 'mandates', at least some of them are.  And those are being removed now so something is 'working' in their efforts to complain you see.
3. To call it a 'social credit system' is to give it more (social) credit than it's worth.  It's a ban on protests associated with the Convoy, that's it.  And I outlined the 3 things that make the political landscape ripe for passing such a bill WITH public support.
4. That is exaggeration - China has one political system, and no real ability to dissent.  So you are making such an extreme claim that I don't want to respond further.
5. It may feel like that to you.  Read The National Post, Globe and Mail to get a sense of what our political commentary class thinks and see what you learn.  You may feel differently afterwards.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Oh... 'THEY DON'T EXIST'.  So our democracy has been deficient since its inception

Finally, you got it congrats! Nobody bothered about this tiny trifle from the get go (why would they? it worked for them very nicely) et voila. I very very much like for them to keep extending this because some blah prerogative somewhere, even indefinitely (please, Justine can we?). Postpone the elections too (because they can).

Because that would be factually, the democratic state of Honduras and Zimbabwe and maybe the only way that you could see and interpret the observed. But maybe not, not a given. There's always a capacity to make oneself not see and rationalize that things aren't that bad. It's not the reality, it's someone else.

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, myata said:

1. Finally, you got it congrats! Nobody bothered about this tiny trifle from the get go (why would they? it worked for them very nicely) et voila.  

 

1. Well I disagree - there are press, opposition parties and the courts to start.  But not good enough for you, ok.  I applaud your demand that things be better, sincerely  

 

[myata]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

press, opposition parties and the courts

We've been at it. There's very little of that today I mean real not only on pretty paper, like where did you see "courts" here? And it's diminishing daily trickling out drop by drop. No more free press, gone (other than in trivial, useless matters). What will be left tomorrow, with no changes or improvements coming in? Everybody's guess.

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

This is when I get really upset with you.  The current situation is a major crisis for the unvaccinated, the right to protest, and the right to our Charter rights for all citizens.

You have a right to protest. You just don't have a right to protest wherever and however you want, or to stop people from being able to earn a living because you're upset.  These weren't just protests.  The Ambassador Bridge in particular was a blockade and an occupation and cost the Ontario economy billions. If you can't even concede that this was illegal and inappropriate than your bias is too big to overcome.  "But but but vaccine mandates are unfair" as an argument doesn't somehow change what was happening at the Ambassador Bridge. 

If you think the mandates are illegal or unconstitutional, you make those arguments in Court.  Your anger and outrage do not make something illegal somehow legal. 

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Please don't - I am listening here.
2. Ok but that's not just a concern for unvaccinated - it's a concern for ALL.  The unvaccinated are concerned with 'mandates', at least some of them are.  And those are being removed now so something is 'working' in their efforts to complain you see.
3. To call it a 'social credit system' is to give it more (social) credit than it's worth.  It's a ban on protests associated with the Convoy, that's it.  And I outlined the 3 things that make the political landscape ripe for passing such a bill WITH public support.
4. That is exaggeration - China has one political system, and no real ability to dissent.  So you are making such an extreme claim that I don't want to respond further.
5. It may feel like that to you.  Read The National Post, Globe and Mail to get a sense of what our political commentary class thinks and see what you learn.  You may feel differently afterwards.

I’ve been sharing articles from the political class!  I’m fully aware. 

[Zeitgeist]

17 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

You have a right to protest. You just don't have a right to protest wherever and however you want, or to stop people from being able to earn a living because you're upset.  These weren't just protests.  The Ambassador Bridge in particular was a blockade and an occupation and cost the Ontario economy billions. If you can't even concede that this was illegal and inappropriate than your bias is too big to overcome.  "But but but vaccine mandates are unfair" as an argument doesn't somehow change what was happening at the Ambassador Bridge. 

If you think the mandates are illegal or unconstitutional, you make those arguments in Court.  Your anger and outrage do not make something illegal somehow legal. 

It’s not only that!!!   We’ve laid everything out.  Open your eyes.  I do understand the denial because what’s happening is unprecedented in Canadian and even US history.  I won’t explain further because all the information is there.  Believe me, I don’t want any of it to be true.  

Edited February 23, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Moonbox]

30 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s not only that!!!   We’ve laid everything out.  Open your eyes.  

Too much of what you've laid out has been silly nonsense.  What legitimate points you may be making often get lost in the raging hyperbole, which turns people against you.  

[myata]

An unprecedented military invasion by Putin of Ukraine is another obvious illustration why governments, any of them at any time should never be left without strict checks and controls by the society. It'll be "Goodwins", sighs and naive innocent eyes rolled to the sky all the way till it happens in the reality around you. There's only one and completely undeniable reason: Because We Can.  Because there's nothing to limit and stop us. Just watch.

Edited February 24, 2022 by myata

[eyeball]

On 2/22/2022 at 9:05 AM, myata said:

Of course they can be different, modern Nazis. They may not have to destroy people physically just annihilate their normal lives. And again you'll fail to see it, understand and recognize for what it it. Because no experience can help in cases of mental block, all-powerful dogma.

So is it fair to say you think the 1000 year reich is effectively on?

[myata]

On 2/25/2022 at 2:08 AM, eyeball said:

So is it fair to say you think the 1000 year reich is effectively on?

Possibly.. how could you know? There's a thousand cases in Ontario, for 15 million population. Masks are still mandatory. That don't even do much, just put it on, just in case we said so. Mandated. Countries lifted all restrictions, for a long time. Some never had them.

Who decided that? How? What they cannot decide, this way?

I don't care much what will happen with Covid, new wave or no wave. We have a much more serious and troubling problem on our hands. And what can we do about it? Anything, we could do?

[West]

On 2/23/2022 at 11:18 AM, Moonbox said:

You have a right to protest. You just don't have a right to protest wherever and however you want, or to stop people from being able to earn a living because you're upset.  These weren't just protests.  The Ambassador Bridge in particular was a blockade and an occupation and cost the Ontario economy billions. If you can't even concede that this was illegal and inappropriate than your bias is too big to overcome.  "But but but vaccine mandates are unfair" as an argument doesn't somehow change what was happening at the Ambassador Bridge. 

If you think the mandates are illegal or unconstitutional, you make those arguments in Court.  Your anger and outrage do not make something illegal somehow legal. 

What about Ottawa? People could still get around other than the ridiculous blockades installed by the state. Yet they still pepper sprayed, threw punches, and engaged in state violence against protesters. 

[Michael Hardner]

On 2/23/2022 at 12:18 PM, Moonbox said:

You have a right to protest. You just don't have a right to protest wherever and however you want, or to stop people from being able to earn a living because you're upset.  These weren't just protests.  The Ambassador Bridge in particular was a blockade and an occupation and cost the Ontario economy billions. If you can't even concede that this was illegal and inappropriate than your bias is too big to overcome. 

Exactly right.

They constantly misrepresent what they did to the point where they're not worth engaging with.

[myata]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You just don't have a right to protest wherever

Ridiculous. Shameful. Putin began his handling of protests in Russia some years back by designating special places where "protest" was allowed - as opposed to where citizens, who own the country and the governments see it fit, whenever they think there's a reason. And look where it got him. Now you figured it out too. Congratulations.

Speaking of Putin, and not far away (yet) stretches and exaggerations, he shows us very clearly the end destination of any closed, isolated and unaccountable government. There's no way around or to escape it, as long and the management of public matters remains that way. Almost any public domain, just pick one, is in decline. The bureaucracy knows only how to spend, burn on itself astronomical amounts of public money. The writing is on the wall: change, evolve or go into a system-wide decline. Let's see who wants to know and think about it.

[Moonbox]

57 minutes ago, myata said:

Ridiculous. Shameful. Putin began his handling of protests in Russia some years back by designating special places where "protest" was allowed - as opposed to where citizens, who own the country and the governments see it fit, whenever they think there's a reason. And look where it got him. Now you figured it out too. Congratulations.

Your logic is shameful.  The Ambassador Bridge protest especially was not designed to voice displeasure, but to cause max pain.  

Other people have rights too.  People have the right to not have their factory shut down because of a bunch of angry truckers decide the best place to have a protest is a bridge that sees $300M+ of daily trade crossing.  People have a right to be able to drive down their streets and not have them blocked for a month by a group of angry goofs.

As I said, your right to protest is not limitless, and it's not a right to do it however and wherever you want.  That is fact.  That is why an injunction against blaring your truck horns was granted in Ottawa, for example.  

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. Your logic is shameful.  The Ambassador Bridge protest especially was not designed to voice displeasure, but to cause max pain.  

2. Other people have rights too.  People have the right to not have their factory shut down  

 

1. Max pain to ordinary citizens and consumers.  
2. Clearly

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Ridiculous. Shameful. Putin began his handling of protests in Russia some years back by designating special places where "protest" was allowed - as opposed to where citizens, who own the country and the governments see it fit, w.

No, you don't "own" the country in the sense you can occupy, blockade, and harm other citizens.  You can protest where you don't interfere with other citizen's right to live and work.  Once you start illegally blockading or occupying streets and cities and depriving other people of their liberty, jobs, and prevent them from going about their lives, you have become a criminal and deserve punishment.  Democracy or protest does not mean you have the right to use coercion or force to try to get your way.  Did your parents raise you to respect the laws of the land and rights of other people or not?

[myata]

10 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

As I said, your right to protest is not limitless, and it's not a right to do it however and wherever you want.  That is fact.  That is why an injunction against blaring your truck horns was granted in Ottawa, for example.

It's not limitless, of course. Just as the prerogative to govern cannot be virtually limitless, in a democratic society. Why do we still have mask mandates? Federal vaccination mandates? Countries removed them for months now. Sweden is past another Covid wave and it didn't have an all time high for over a year, and never, any lockdowns or mandates. This is just plain arbitrary, voluntaristic application of authority. As plain and blatant as can be.

And now, you want to say that authority can do whatever it likes, but the citizens must follow this and that? Sure you can say that. And that would be all what it's worth. No democratic legitimacy without accountability. That was said over two centuries back. Nothing new to discover here.

Edited March 2, 2022 by myata

[Moonbox]

4 minutes ago, myata said:

This is just plain arbitrary, voluntaristic application of authority. As plain and blatant as can be.

but not at all, and the Courts agree it's not.  All of your whining about it therefore appears to be little more than coping with how unhappy you are about your place in the world.  

[blackbird]

7 minutes ago, myata said:

It's not limitless, of course. Just as the prerogative to govern cannot be virtually limitless, in a democratic society. Why do we still have mask mandates? Federal vaccination mandates? Countries removed them for months now. Sweden is past another Covid wave and it didn't have an all time high for over a year, and never, any lockdowns or mandates. This is just plain arbitrary, voluntaristic application of authority. As plain and blatant as can be.

And now, you want to say that authority can do whatever it likes, but the citizens must follow this and that? Sure you can say that. And that would be all what it's worth. No democratic legitimacy without accountability. That was said over two centuries back. Nothing new to discover here.

Listen to the vast majority of health experts, not the anti-everything theorists.  Believe the science.  

[myata]

On 3/2/2022 at 1:39 PM, Moonbox said:

but not at all, and the Courts agree it's not. 

No formal process is tantamount to democratic legitimacy. A dictator can write themselves any process that would make them 100% legitimate no matter what they do, and they do. Kim Chen Yn, Putin as all of their buddies are fully legitimate by the same argument. You don't have any arguments on the essence: the restrictions cannot be justified by the evidence; they are not effective; they could not stand independent critical questioning; and that means that they are arbitrary and voluntaristic. Not democratic responsible management but voluntaristic authoritarian management. Stop trying to hide the obvious.

Edited March 5, 2022 by myata

[Moonbox]

Repeating yourself like a broken record doesn't make anything you're saying true/obvious.  Your silly rhetoric and vague, meandering criticism is a waste of everyone's time.  

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,

Avoid trolling.

[Zeitgeist]

The science says that vaccination is helpful but probably not necessary for all ages and body types.  It also tells us that restrictions and mandates can and should lift given our many non-Covid problems caused by mandates and restrictions, including mistreatment of unvaccinated people, segregation, and infringement of constitutional rights.